Thank you, Stax. Any idea if these would typically still be under warranty with a hot water heater less than 2 years old?

Thank you again, Stax. I just talked to a manager/owner at the place that installed our hot water heater. I proposed your solution -- and he asked if I have a gas water heater. Yes, I do. Which he knows from the record -- and he said that I don't have these heating elements in a gas tank. So -- I should have specified that in my first post! Anyway -- he said that it's a combination of magic, art, and science -- and that I may have had my own built-in kind of circulation going (which is why I never needed the circulation pump) and that now my own built-in loop has failed -- possibly due to calcium build-up in the pipe. He will send someone out to flush that and check -- but maybe we'll just have to install and hook up a circulation pump. Which of course will cost $$. But none of this is part of the warranty, apparently. Sigh. Thank you again for your insight. If you have any more tips -- please do share!

Try an experiment. Don't draw any hot water for an hour or two. Go to the water heater and feel the pipes right where they go into the top of it. The one that feels slightly warm is the hot water outlet. Make sure by tracing your plumbing -- the pipe that eventually ends up at the main water valve (or pump source) is the cold.

Now grab the hot pipe 3-4 feet from the tank. It should feel like room temperature, at at least no more than slightly warm.

Go to a sink somewhere and run the hot water for about 10 seconds - definitely not long enough for it to feel hot at the faucet.

Return to the water heater. Touch the pipe again in the same place, 3-4 feet from the water heater. Is it hot now, or at least a lot warmer? Post back with the results.

Let’s start with a gas water heater is much like a pot of water on a gas stove, there’s burner at the bottom that heats the water. Deposits at the bottom of the tank would act like an insulator, slowing the transfer of heat from the burner to the water but modern water heaters are designed so that incoming water “swirls” at the bottom to minimize the accumulation of deposits. In any case, that wouldn’t effect how long it takes for water to get to a faucet but rather how long the water stayed “hot” before running out.

Have you noticed any decrease in water pressure? Does hot water seem to “last” as long as before? What material are the pipes in your home made of - copper, plastic, galvanized steel? Is your problem with every faucet or just a few (or one).

Hi David -- I did the experiment. There were two pipes at the very top going right into the wall of the house. One on right felt room temp/cool. One on left felt warm. Turned on faucet (one one thousand...to 10), then went back out and felt. Still warm. Maybe slightly warmer? But not HOT -- I could grab it and hold it and it felt nice...

I took this photo. I think on the far right is where water comes into water heater from outside. One along front is I think what circuluation pump would get hooked up to and what we use to drain. The ones at the very top going into the house don't have 3-4 feet in length, so maybe the experiment is not as ... revealing? And what should be revealed? Thanks!

Hi Mike -- I think our pipes are copper. House was built almost exactly 20 years ago. I haven't noticed a decrease in pressure or in hot running out too quickly.

I'm not a plumber, but it sounds to me like the water at the top of the water heater is getting chilled, probably by cold water feeding into it.

I see a return connection in your photo, but no circulation pump, unless I'm somehow overlooking it. Where is the circulation pump?

You say that when you used the circulation pump, it actually took longer to get hot water at the tap. I wonder if your pump might be connected backward - pulling cold water from the bottom of the tank and injecting it into the top through the hot water piping.

Hi Deborah (10a - Sunset 24),

So this isn't normal.

Anyone who is giving you a quick answer without backing it up is just guessing.

There can be a number of answers - a mixing valve that is back flowing, a circulation pump connected backwards, a dip tube that is broken, etc...

A plumber needs to verify that the circ pump is connected properly. They need to test (with a digital thermometer) the temp of the outlet water, etc. They actually need to be methodical and not jump to easy answers.

You might be able to do some of that if you are handy... if not then you need to get someone who will really do some detective work and verify any hypothesis before reaching a conclusion.

Hi Jake -- thanks for your response. I should be more clear. When we first moved in, no one had ever plugged in the circulation pump. When we replaced the hot water heater, they replaced the circulation pump. It took LONGER to get hot water WITH the circulation pump, so we had them disconnect it. After the fire and power outages fried that water heater 10 years later, we had this water heater installed. When it was done, there was a brand new circulation pump. I said we didn't need it. The plumber insisted it would be better. We tested it. It was NOT better. It took longer. Plus, it needed a power source. So, I paid extra to have that disconnected. So, for 20 years we've NOT had a circulation pump hooked up. It's been great. The theory was that somehow there was a loop already existing that functioned kind of like its own circulation pump. But 2-3 weeks ago everything changed. WE've not touched the water heater or any connections or pipes. We've not had any trouble. But now it takes ages and ages for the hot water to come out of the faucets. It takes the least amount of time for the washing machine and utility sink -- they're right next to the hot water heater - but even they take longer.

We have a guy coming out tomorrow. The owner of the company said he will brief the guy on what to check for after our extensive phone conversation today. So here's hoping they figure it out. If you have anything specific I should ask, I'm all ears! The water heater folks do about 80% of their business new construction and about 20% hot water heaters, so I'm hoping he will be well versed in potential issues...

Thanks so much for your time and insight.

The pipe on the far right is not an inlet. It is an outlet, hooked up to the overpressure (pressure relief) valve. The one at the bottom is some kind of drain. The inlet and outlet are at the top.

Does the cold water ever seem lukewarm at some tap?

the first thing I'd do is put a thermometer on the hot water outlet of the heater and see if it was 120-140.

Hi Jake. That's why I suggested that she check the temp of the hot line from the WH after drawing water for about 10 seconds. She did, see above, and it's not hot. That has to mean that the water at the top of the tank isn't hot, right? But it has to be hotter further down in the tank, because after a couple of minutes, she gets hot water.

So in my admittedly inexperienced view, something is chilling the water near the WH's hot outlet. You're right that it could be lots of things, maybe even more than one.

BTW, I don't know how critical it is, but the sequence you (I mean the OP, Deborah, now) describe in the reply above confuses me. It sounds like you've had a total of 3 water heaters and 3 circ pumps in the time you've had the house. Is that right?

And using the circ pump always made the hot water slower, correct?

You never did say where the circulation pump is located.

Also, when you say the circ pump was disconnected, it's not clear whether that means it was disconnected from the water system, or just unplugged from electric power. Which is it?

Another missing piece of the puzzle -- if you let the water finally get hot at the sink (or wherever), then shut the tap, how long before you need to wait another 2 minutes to get hot water again?

I can think of how I might troubleshoot this, if it were my house, but my way would require making experimental changes and then letting the system stabilize. That could take something between several hours and a few days. I hope a good experienced troubleshooting plumber can come up with something more time-efficient.

I'm afraid that what you're going to get is a plumber who just starts changing stuff, running up the bill, until he stumbles across the problem. I hope I'm wrong about that.

When you find out hat's causing this, please post back to let us know what it was.

DavidR,

I'm not sure the information from the OP is conclusive because I'm not confident she's aware which is the hot water outlet.

Thanks, guys, for all the input. I typed up my description of the problem and copied Jake's suggestions above, and will leave them for my husband to talk with the plumber who comes out. The owner of the place that installed the water heater swore he'd talk with the tech before sending him out so that he would really understand the issue. I just have to hope, I guess.

To be clear -- the circulation pump on the very first water heater (we bought house new 20 years ago) was installed, but not plugged in. We had a plumber look at this, plug it in, but we didn't like it, so we unplugged it. Then a couple of years into the house/1st water heater I heard what sounded like a mini-explosion, went into garage, and smelled burning -- called my Dad, and he said to look at water heater. On the roof where it vents it was totally black -- gas guy came out and said to call hot water heater guy, so we got hot water heater #2, which lasted about 16 years. They installed it with a circ pump, we got slow water, so he came back out and un-installed the circ pump. Then after the Thomas Fire, we had rolling blackouts which I think fried something in the system, and then our hot water heater wouldn't stay lit, so we got our 3rd hot water heater. The guy installed a circ pump, even though I'd said on the order we didn't want it, and then our water was slow, and so he came back out to disconnect it.

Re pipes -- there are two pipes side-by-side going into the wall at the top of the hot water tank. One is room temp, the other is warm. I'm assuming these are both the water going into the house. The pipe across the front horizontally is where the circ pump has gone, and it has two spigots. The long bar along the side has a pressure release valve at the top. The other end of that pipe goes into the garage wall just above where our water valve from the street to the house is located -- hence my thought that this is what brings water in. The spigots (2) are attached to both ends of that horizontal bar where the circ pump has been.

I will post an update. And I pray that the plumber is a good troubleshooter.

Hi Deborah (10a - Sunset 24),

If the water leaving the heater isn't hot, but it's otherwise working, then I suspect the dip tube may be broken.

The dip tube is a tube that runs from the cold water intake to the bottom of the tank. It prevents the cold water that is coming into the tank from mixing with the hot water at the top of the tank. When the tube breaks, you can get not very hot water from the heater or you can run out of hot water very quickly.

Also, it looks like the return for the circulation line can be turned off to help remove that from the equation by shutting off the white handled ball valve near the drain.

Hi folks. Just got home super late. Long long long long day. Husband says the plumber was here for 8 minutes. Good news is that he didn't charge us. Bad news is he suggested we turn up the thermostat on the heater. Husband says he "washes his hands" of this whole thing (!!! are husbands allowed to do that?). I'll see how shower goes in the morning. :-/

You poor thing. Hope this gets fixed to your satisfaction soon.

I guess your plumber isn't a good troubleshooter, or even a troubleshooter at all. :(

I don't think that turning up the WH thermostat will make a significant difference.

I generally agree with Jake's analysis. A possible cause here is a failure of the cold inlet dip tube inside the tank.

Before doing anything else, however, I recommend closing the ball valve at the lower right of your photo (the white lever with blue printing on it). Turn it whichever way it will go, so that it's at 90 degrees to the pipe. Depending on how long it's been since it's been moved, you may need a bit of extra muscle to make it go. Don't break it, though.

See if that changes anything. Post back and let us know.

I agree - shut off the circulation return line. You aren't going to break the valve and it will move just fine. Ball valves are great that way.

Ball valves are great that way.

Hey, Jake, come on over and see if you can budge the one I put on the cold line to my own water heater about 15 years ago. :)

I guess it's my own fault for not working it every year or two, but it's made me realize that despite what I've heard, ball valves can seize up too. Maybe not as fast as the crummy cheap Chinese gate valves from the big box stores, but they can and will.

The two pipes at the top are a cold water inlet and a hot water outlet.

That other pipe going to the bottom is the recirculation return. Since you are not using it, you should close that ball valve.

The recirculation 'pump' in whichever bath you have may have a faulty check valve. This should keep cold water from mixing with the hot, but may not be working or stuck open. So when you turn on the hot, you're actually getting water from both the 'hot' top of the tank and the 'cold' bottom of the tank via that recirculation line. Close that ball valve and see if that helps.

Deborah (10a - Sunset 24)

Do let us know how things turned out. Was it really just that the heater was turned down too low or did they mask the problem by cranking the heater temp?

DavidR,

I've never had that experience with ball valves. A mechanical contractor put me on to ball valves about 35 years ago in a commercial setting. I've used them exclusively since then and could always count on them for positive shut-off and not seizing up like a gate valve does when it hasn't been used. Most of them now are made with brass bodies, stainless steel balls and nylon seats.