The classic books are Roses of the World in Color, by Horace J. McFarlane, and The Practical Guide to Outdoor Rose Growing, by Capt. George C. Thomas. Originally, these were far from being exhibitor's darlings. The term Old Garden Rose implies the existence of New Garden Roses. Those were HTs, Polyanthas, and Ramblers. They were meant to be grown as bedding plants, and meant to be grown as budded plants. This is currently one of the biggest barriers to growing them. As late as the 1990's, J&P and the other big growers had supplemental lists containing a surprising number of pre-Peace hts. Pickering carried about a dozen. ARE at least screened them for own-root growability in mild climates. If you aren't in an optimal climate for them, that is going to be the first concern in selection. Is the stupid
thing going to grow.

Thank you Mad Gallica! I'm going to look for those books right now. I see what you mean by "is the stupid thing going to grow" -- the images of many early hybrid teas on Help Me Find show very puny plants. Some may just be immature, but others are probably just not vigorous.

I really enjoy my early HT "Pink Pearl" gifted from Melody. This bush is a graceful, fine boned beauty so far. Since I planted it in the ground it has filled out, but is beautiful and not at all stiff looking.

That is beautiful, Sheila! I love the arch of her canes. Really elegant!

I have Cl. Crimson Glory, but the bush form is beautiful, Gruss an Aachen, Cl. Caroline Testout, Aloha, La France, both bush and climbing, and Barcelona. While Aloha is dangerously modern in time it has a very lax habit compared to what I consider the stiff vase-shaped modern HT. No good pictures yet of the bushes. I have seen Radiance locally and it's beautiful and very fragrant. Love that rose!

Hybrid Teas are usually divided into pre-Peace and post-Peace, though something like Charlotte Armstrong is a post-Peace introduction in a pre-Peace style since the breeding hadn't caught up to Peace yet. It makes a good divider since the European rose breeders and growers had to shift over to edibles during the war, so there is a natural break.

Shiela and Kathyc, your pics are mouth dropping. The colors are so soft, different and very pleasing .

KS, great thread and thank you for thinging of it. Its great topic.

I have not order this particular rose but ever since Jeri told me and its been sitting in my heart , Lady Mary Fitwilliam rose. Its an old hybrid tea not antique.

Katy, i wrote Gruss An Coburg on my list 3 yrs ago and after seeing yours now i should get that too :)) and also La France which Shiela told me to get it several times so many beautiful roses wishing i had a bigger yard, sigh !

I keep hoping Ingrid will see this thread. She as grown several of the early Hybrid Teas and has exquisite photos. These early roses really appeal to me, their beauty touches the heart. MaryC

@Plumeria Girl (Florida ,9b) yes you should definitely get Gruss an Coburg! =)

I grow several so far: Gruss an Aachen, Gruss an Coburg, Gruss an Teplitz (HT/China?), September Morn, Rosette Delizy (HT/Tea?), Soleil d'Or.

I sought out September Morn after seeing a gorgeous photo of it on HMF, behind a white picket fence. It is still only a few years old and I transplanted it last year so that set it back some. So far it has been nice but not as exuberant as in the HMF photo; but I think I have to wait another year or two to know for sure. Also, so far the blooms don't do that well in the damp. Luckily summers are hot and dry here so the blooms then are good.

Soleil d'Or has had gorgeous blooms and not too much BS so far. Ok it did defoliate completely the first year but after that it has been ok with no spray. Very unusual flower color; and somewhat changeable (yellow vs. peach vs. apricot).

Rosette Delizy is one of my favorite roses, I love the colors.

Gruss an Coburg is a wonderful color.

Gruss an Teplitz is struggling a bit, I have him (not sure why that rose is a "him"!) out back where he doesn't get as much water and has had to contend with a mole. Once he gets fully established I'll have a more informed opinion about his virtues.

Gruss an Aachen is also a wonderful color and it reminds me of my Mom who was from Germany and loved light pink, so of course i have it where I get to walk by her every day to say Hi.

Overall, I think these older HTs are well worth growing. Mine are all own-root and that doesn't seem to be a problem for these at least.

I didn't realize the Radiance family was so old (early 1900's) - guess I have to add them to my ever-growing list!

Oh, my , its beautiful, Kathyc !

I am so grateful that we grow so many roses. I cannot imagine otherwise and i agree with Slumgullion, older HT are worth growing :)

Thanks so much for your replies everyone! This is such a fascinating topic.

Kathyc, your pictures are wonderful! Mrs Sam McGredy has a really interesting habit -- quite graceful. I'm also struck by the dramatic color shift on the petals of your Condessa de Sastago. All of these pictures show these early HTs growing so beautifully that I may need to check RVR to see what they have in stock... Thank you for sharing them with us!

Vaporvac, I know there are some places that sell an impostor "La France" -- do you remember where you got yours? Do you see differences between the bush and the climber, aside from size?

Mad Gallica the pre and post-Peace division makes sense. Thank you for clarifying that.

Jin, I am going to look up Lady Mary Fitzwilliam right now!

Slumgullion, does your soleil d'or stay small? The pictures on HMF show tiny plants covered in huge flowers.

KS, i foumd a thread that other older HT and also LMF.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5730531/lady-mary-fitzwilliam&ved=2ahUKEwjXhe65iOfnAhUjZN8KHd-pCR4QFjAEegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw3zlcQQCZe3idZ9YnagM5r0&cshid=1582440456403

Bush and climbing forum U AR the same. Same flower form and fragrance.PS La France I do not have the bush in the ground yet however so I'm just judging by its growth in a pot. I got the climber from a r e. And the bush form from High Country roses which does have the correct one. Freedom Gardens also carries the correct Bush as well as many other early hybrid tea s . They are not all listed at the moment. But there are a few there. I do really like climbing LaFrance. That is why I got the bush form. I hope I have the same luck when I get the bush form of Crimson Glory.

KS, here Soleil d'Or is lanky maybe 2-3 ft tall. It is somewhat like a scots rose in body habitus.

Thanks Vaporvac -- I'm glad to know that High Country has the bush version that is correct. I've had good luck with their plants!

Jin, that thread made me realize that LMF is among the beautiful plants Rosylady recently posted from the cemetery in Sacramento! So cool!

Sheila, I LOVE spinosissimas, so that seems like something I should try. :)

So far my Soleil d'Or is also about 2' tall, but I think this is only it's second season (going into it's third season?) in the ground. It's definitely the smallest of these HT's at the moment, but I don't know if it will take off at some point or stay small. Mine is fairly upright in growth although the canes are not terribly thick (so far).

Valentine 1951, so it’s post Peace era, but has a old form. Mine is in its second year and just sent up a cane of a floribunda style cluster that is only 24” tall. I love it’s bushy short habit and the way the flowers nod. We had a rainstorm last night so it’s nodding more than usual this morning. I haven’t pruned it or removed any leaves since getting it from Antique Rose Emporium and planting fall 2018. Zero diseases. Here is a picture from this morning and last summer when hot and dry and flowers facing up more. Blooms are about 3”. I personally love nodding blooms and it has zero thorns. Also no pruning required. It really is the perfect shrub rose that doesn’t blink at 100 plus degree heat. Only drawback is no fragrance.

Valentine makes such a nice bush! Thanks for sharing this one with us, Stephanie. Nice to know that it is not thorny and is also disease resistant for you.

My favorite HT which I grow is CL Madame Caroline Testout. The bush form was hybridized in 1890, and the climbing sport was introduced in 1901. I think of it, frankly, as a HT from before the early HTs got ruined by having all of the scent and immunity to fungal diseases taken out of them in the hybridizers' quest for a perfect modern bloom shape. CT does NOT have a modern HT bloom shape at all, which is one of the main reasons I love it - its blooms are globular, and what I call to myself "blowsy". Here is a pic of mine (which is a rooted cutting of one which was found in our old neighborhood, surviving and blooming happily in the overgrown back yard of a house which had been vacant for 20+ years - we noticed it because its gorgeous blooms were sticking out of a blackberry thicket). It is growing 20 feet up our chimney.

Jackie

My second favorite HT which I grow is Cl Crimson Glory. The bush form was introduced in 1935. What I like most about it is its FRAGRANCE, and then the lovely very large velvety red blooms, which fade towards the purple part of the spectrum, not the orange, and are sort of ruffled when full blown. Mine is also a rooted cutting of an old old cultivar I found in the now commercial part of our old neighborhood, in the garden of a vacant cottage which was to be (and was) torn down and replaced by a parking lot. I am not much on red roses (except chinas), but I noticed it growing 15 feet up a fir tree in the abandoned garden (right next to the place in that same garden where I found what is now called "Schmidt's Smooth Yellow"), and I love climbers. It was not until I had rooted a cutting and it was growing happily that I realized what an amazing strong fragrance it had. I don't spray CG or MCT, and they are obviously on their own roots, so they were evidently both before the way fragile mid 20th century HTs were developed which require constant spraying and have to be budded. Here is a pic of my Cl CG (an errant climbing cane which decided to go sideways when I was not looking):

Jackie, those are sumptuous! Thank you so much for sharing them. Mme Caroline Testout looks especially wonderful against the brick. She is a rose that is very common in Portland, so I suppose she will do well here too. Beautiful pictures!

PS I can't get over the color of that Crimson Glory. It looks spectacular against the blue-purples of the clematis in the background!

K S 8b Seattle - here is a pic of CG with clematis and Sombreiul

Jackie, that is absolutely stunning!

That is just gorgeous. I have mine planted next to Dream Land. I just got them in the ground last year so we'll see how they like their home come Spring.

Jackie, those are two beautiful roses! Does Cl. Crimson Glory have any disease tendencies in your climate? Are you in Northern or Southern California? I adore reds that fade to purple!

My garden is in Marin county, in the Northern part of the SF Bay Area, about 6 blocks from SF Bay. We get less extreme weather than areas inland East of us, because of the marine influence. Definitely a Mediterraean climate - warm dry summers, and wet winters ("normal" annual rainfall ~ 35 inches.

My Cl Crimson Glory gets a bit of mildew in the Spring, but then it goes away. No rust or anything else. Needs to get adequate water during our 6-7 month dry season.

Jackie

Mildew and rust are the only diseases for me to worry about being 35 miles inland in Los Angeles County, with coastal mist at night that burns off in the morning. I think it would be perfect in my garden.

How thorny is Cl. Crimson Glory? And when it sends up canes are they thick and stiff or thin and flexible?

It is a HT, so its canes are fairly thick. However, I have mine trained on a metal "rose folly", and I can train the canes if I do it when they are young. It has thorns, but is not hugely thorny like some roses. I just went out to look at it, and the mature canes have a medium sized thorn about every 3 inches along them.

Jackie

Snowbird- Pre- WWII

I do not have a great image of Snowbird (it has soft, creamy white blooms), but it was trouble-free in a desert climate, and heat tolerant, with an amazing fragrance!

I learned of and purchased this rose due to Catspa's images etc.

Thanks Lynn! I'm really excited about Snowbird. It is a rose I'd never have known about if it weren't for this forum. I think Catspa's and Jeri's pictures were the ones that convinced me to try it. My snowbird is TINY right now, but I hope it will grow well here. I'm excited to hear that it is fragrant. Yours looks very happy!

Ah,

My not so effective skimming of posts vs. reading...

Thank you for the thread, K S. It has placed certain roses back on my radar as I plan for a new garden.

Great thread, thanks KS for starting it. I think lots of these older HTs are well worth preserving, for various reasons. I do agree with Jackie about the difference between these old garden beauties and the (often) weaker, stiffer, less attractive overall plants that came to be grown mainly as a vehicle for that supposed 'ideal', stiff-petalled spiral HT bloom form, mainly for exhibition purposes and formal rose gardens (ie the dreaded bare-earth, chemical sprayed, monoculture mid 20th century kind). Developing ever more novel, often garish colours and combinations went along with this, and as is always the way, human nature seems to love a novelty and these continue to act like clickbait to the rose buyer.

These developments have also led to the common modern idea that roses (and plants in general, perhaps) are virtually ALL about the bloom alone - which IMO is a great shame.

Oh, ETA: Vape - quite possibly the situation may be different in the US, but I have been led to believe here (and maybe in the UK too?) that the bush form of Crimson Glory lacks the vigour and general garden-worthiness of the climber. Fingers crossed that won't turn out to be the case for you. :-)

Here here! I also think the predominance of that form led everyone to believe roses are difficult to grow and require tons of pesticides, herbicides and fungicides!

Much to my surprise (and delight), 'Sutter's Gold' continues to fare quite well here in my climate, although it does suffer from some Blackspot. Ten years ago I stopped applying fungicide in my collection (nearly 2500 unique varieties), opting for a "survival of the fittest" garden. After five years, the vast majority of Hybrid Teas, miniatures, and other modern roses had died from chronic disease pressure.

Another older HT that does really well for me is 'Tiffany', believe it or not. It doesn't get disease and thrives in spite of near total neglect. It surprises how sturdy 'Tiffany' is. I'm glad because it was THE first rose I ever planted, when I was 14. Its got one of the best fragrances of its class.

That is so awesome, Paul. (Awesome collection; not awesome that a lot of plants died, although I agree with the decision not to spray)

Is there a way for you to post a list of (a) the complete collection and (b) the ones that have survived? The results of your experiment could be really helpful to others especially in the PNW.

I don't spray and have generally had few problems, but I'm in a pretty dry climate compared to the rest of PNW. I think my biggest disease problem so far has been Ardoisee de Lyon; I'm waiting to let the plant mature before making a final determination about whether to keep her.

Glad for the info about Tiffany, she's been on my list and this moves her up a few notches in priority.

And I guess I'll add Sutter's Gold to the list!

I had a Sutter's Gold which was a family heirloom from my DH's grandparents. It was covered all over with rust every year, so in the interests of keeping it (loved the fragrance, and I was trying to save all of the old inherited roses) I put it in a huge pot on our patio, far away from our other roses, and did spray it alone for years. It still got rust. It finally died last year - I can't say I am sorry, as picking the rusted leaves off of it, so the rust would fall into a paper bag, was a pain! Glad to hear yours is doing well, Paul.

I agree with everything everyone said about the mid 20th century HTs giving rise to the general public's disinclination to grow roses - very much too sad.

Jackie

@jacqueline9CA

"I had a Sutter's Gold which was a family heirloom from my DH's grandparents. It was covered all over with rust every year"

Fortunately, Rust is not a big problem here. 'Rose de Rescht' gets it a bit, as do a few (very few) others. I used to have 'Rose a Parfum de l'Hay' here, which was truly appalling in its ability to cultivate Rust, and so it was very quickly dispatched after 4 years of misery. If 'Sutters Gold' behaved similarly, it wouldn't be here for long, you can be sure!

I do not grow this rose, but have considered it for a while. Does anyone here have it? Vater Rhein. It's available from time to time at FreedomGardens and is hardy to Z5.

Vaporvac, this looks interesting! If no one has it you should probably get it in the interest of scientific research. I'd love to hear about this one!

My problem is Peter has so many that would be "interesting" in the name of science! LOL! :-D

I don't grow any at present, but many of them are wonderful.

Just look at 'Lady Mary Fitzwilliam' in an old NoCal cemetery!

Jin has mentioned this rose in a recent post. Dreamy!!! What a fluffernutter, powderpuff of a rose. I imagine it's fragrant, as well?

Ooo! That is, as Vaporvac says, fluffy in the best way!