Damask Rose - I LOVE your Madame Hardy and Ispahan! Just mesmerizing! I wish there were a "love" button instead of dysfunctional "like".....

Carol - I'm blessed to have a decent sized yard (by NJ standard, that is) to collect these OGRs. But even with that, I'm at the point that I have to restrain myself from acquiring more, because physically I just can't keep up with the maintenance these beauties really deserve, even though hubby has no problem with my converting his precious lawn into rose bed :-D. So, what I have now in terms of OGRs are likely to be it. I cherish every one of them.

My Celsiana and Celeste are indeed quite different. First, their fragrances are distinct, with Celsiana's a classic damask scent but Celeste's with a hint of spice that I can't describe. Their colors and petals are different as well. Celeste's pink has a hint of bluish tone to it which there is no way my iPhone camera can capture. Celsiana's petals almost look like pale pink fading to white near the edges. Plus, Celsiana's petals look so much like crinkled silk - incredibly feminine to me. In addition, their growth habits are widely different as well. My Celeste has quite an upright habit, topping at about 4.5 - 5' without pruning, while Celsiana is definitely much taller with wide and long draping branches. Do all these jibe with what you recall with yours?

Maintenance. It does keep us in check and insist that we organize and balance our lives, yes? :-)

Lin, I think my Celeste and Celsiana were two different roses, but I'm not 100% certain in retrospect. I seem to remember Celsiana as a coarser (for lack of an appropriate word) plant with rougher foliage and Celeste's blooms with more delicate, silky petals. I also remember two distinct scents, but I am glad to hear differences confirmed in your garden. Your photos of Celeste and Celsiana look distinct to me, too, and both images are heavenly! Truly two of the classic OGRs.

I appreciate your reply. I always worry about in commerce mix-ups as there are a limited number of OGR nurseries operating under difficult conditions. Keeping up with growing, propagating, labeling, orders, billing and shipping is probably nigh daunting!

If I had the space, anywhere, I'd invite Celeste into my garden. Celeste and Chloris are two Albas that I would truly appreciate seeing (and smelling) on a daily basis. If I could grow two more Damasks, they would probably be Celsiana and Ispahan...and maybe Leda as a third. Thank you so much for your shares across the miles! Carol

We've tentatively identified this as Pompom Spong, which would make it my only centifolia. Notice how tiny the blooms are. Lovely fragrance too. I love it!

Wow, Chris! That's a rare one indeed. Fun with rose ID, yes? The blooms of probable PS are adorable and lovely. Thank you! I don't have any Centifolias. Except mossy sports. Carol

Madame Plantier again.

La Ville de Bruxelles (Damask)

Blush Hip (Alba)...but I am not 100% sure that BH isn't Blush Damask.

Putting my oar in: about 'Celeste' and 'Celsiana', I grow both--'Celeste' both here in Europe and back in the U.S.--and in my experience they are distinctly different varieties. As I've known them, 'Celeste' has a slightly warmer pink, I believe with less tendency to fade, the flower is possibly a little smaller than that of 'Celsiana', and the petals and bloom are slightly cupped. 'Celsiana' has a larger, flatter flower, longer, crinkled petals, a more noticeable golden center of stamens, and a greater tendency to fade to white with age. I'm sorry I don't have notes to add about foliage, habit, etc.

I have gotten most extremely suspicious of mixups of names and varieties of old roses, as my comments on other threads suggest. One of the advantages of having a good-sized collection of roses is that I can make direct comparisons, though it can take years before it occurs to me that two roses in different parts of the garden may be the same. Also, none of this is to be taken as disparaging old rose nurseries: they have many challenges in their line of business, and less time than I do for untangling puzzles.

Yes, Carol. It's a rose I found growing in front of a 19th century house in my neighborhood. Not sure of the ID but I've posted about this rose in the past and the closest guess seems to be Spong. It's very unique and charming.

Oh, those whites. Marvelous.

I posted these photos on the "Name that Rose" side. The rose is from a start of an old fashioned shrub rose in my small home town.

What a wonderful assortment! If I had to pick and choose (not that I could grow any of them on my hot hillside) Carol's Maiden's Blush and Stanwell Perpetual and Lin's Celsiana might be the top contenders, but really all of them are beyond beautiful, and that's without being able to smell their amazing fragrance. Thank you, Carol, for originating another wonderfully evocative old rose thread.

Jacques Cartier & feverfew encroaching. We have had so many torrential downpours. Also problems with insects (thrips?) Have to prune and prune and probably stake so many things.

I used to have the damask rose Celsiana, but when I moved it, it didn't recover and died. Then I realized how very beautiful it was -- or had been, and missed it.

It is very distinctive, a semi-double that managed to remained popular during a period when very double flowers were in vogue. The blossoms are 4" across, quite large for an old European rose -- many of which are 2" or 3". Also they fade to white, so that the bush has these big, fluttery white and pink flowers at the same time -- disposed like butterflies. Laurie Lewis of Hedgerow Roses describes Celsiana so memorably.
https://hedgerowrose.com/rose-gardening/2014/03/13/celsiana-damask-rose/

Schoolhouse: is the rose thorny and suckering, getting up to about 5'?

Melissa, the rose is thorny and the appx. 2" blooms are very fragrant. The mother shrub was large, higher than 5' and very wide. An old shrub rose that has been growing on the side of an alley for many years at a homestead in the small town I grew up in.

I got permission to dig a piece up about two years ago. It took off right away and is about 2' high at my place right now and spreading (is that what you meant by suckering? no shoots up thru the ground yet, but many shoots from branches).

For you Ingrid :-) - one more pic of Celsiana. Although the arrangement of her petals looks a bit informal, I'm incredibly attracted to the presentation for some reason. Plus those elegant sepals and buds....

Hi, I've been a long time lurker here but haven't posted much. I've been growing roses for two or three years only and I've learnt most of what I know about OGRs here. I love to read years old threads here, it is so valuable resource! So thanks to everyone for keeping it alive here.

All my old roses are in their first year (we get them grafted so they flower a bit in their first year). Still babies but I am very excited about them. They somehow speak to my heart in a different way than modern roses do, even though I love both old and modern :) if you understand what I mean.

James Veitch

Alba Maxima

Another Maiden's Blush photo.

Queen of Denmark/Konigen von Danemark (Alba)

Botzaris again.

Lacy sepals.

Indigo

Every picture here is marvelous, beginning with Mme Plantier and her lacy sepals.

Schoolhouse, it was the proliferating buds that caught my attention. By suckering, I mean new shoots coming up from the ground a little way from the main stock. I have a rose somewhat like yours called 'Duc de Cambridge', a thorny, once-flowering rose that's very given to proliferation. You can find pictures of the phenomenon online if the term is unfamiliar to you.

Melissa, I appreciate your oar of observations as I do Lin's. I have worried that Celeste/Celestial and Celsiana were getting increasingly confused of late. Old rose nurseries have their hands and their plates full and are up against a pile of obstacles, so I can see how mix-ups happen, but Celeste and Celsiana are each so lovely in their own rights that I would hate to see them become a tangle and one or the other suffer for it. Carol

Chris, that is so awesome that you collected your pompom Spong from the garden of a 19th century house in your neighborhood! I am giving you a long distance high five!! I have been trying to get out when I can to search my neighborhood for old roses. I have spotted 4 different mosses, 2 Ferdinand Pichards, a number of Cecille Brunners, 2 Manettis, a number of ramblers and serval others. I hope my propagation skills continue to improve because I'm attempting to root several...again. Thank you for sharing a photo of your rose, and please keep us posted if you discover anything else exciting! Carol

Ingrid, I'm so glad you are enjoying this thread and that we can offer you some blush and pink Old Garden Roses to thank you for your generous photo shares! One of the things I love about the forum is that we can experience all the roses we don't grow in our own gardens. My Maiden's Blush for your Aunt Margy's Rose. Carol

Monarda, thank you for your Jacques C and for your wonderful description of Celsiana! I love Laurie's Hedgerow Rose site. I pop over there any time I need a breath of fresh air. Her photos are gorgeous! I am so sorry you lost your Celsiana. I miss mine, too.I left it behind on my triple lot. If I only didn't currently garden on a postage stamp, and I had 100 under gardeners to help with all the staking during rainy times.... Carol

Oh, Schoolhouse. That is a wonderful OGR! I am so glad you were able to snag a piece for propagation. It looks like Melissa recognized it as Duc de Cambridge right away. Does her ID look like a match with your rose? I glanced at the photos on HelpMe Find, and to my eye, they look very similar. The foliage of your rose definitely shouts "Damask" to me. If the ID is correct, you just collected a pre 1840 OGR. Wow! I'm always awestruck by the fact that we can still discover these antiques growing here and there in the world around us--in old gardens, abandoned fields, parking strips,... Do you mind if I ask the general area of the country where you found your rose?

Melissa, you rock at OGR ID!

Carol

Chris, Indigo! One of my "makes me swoon" roses. You know we are Indigo kindred spirits across the miles. Thank you! Carol

Hi, Edhelka. Thanks for jumping in! And thank you for sharing your lovely roses. I am thrilled that you have fallen in love with old roses, and James Veitch and R alba Maxima are two wonderful old roses with which to begin your journey. The combination of the two is one of my favorites--purple and white. If you ever have any questions, just ask. This forum is blessed with so many knowledgeable gardeners and some of the most helpful and generous people I've ever e-met. Off topic: I visited Wales a number of years ago, and it is one of my favorite places on earth, so lush and green with such beautiful villages. I couldn't read a word of the signage, though. Ha, ha. I thoroughly enjoyed visiting Tintern Abbey. Such a magnificent place. I went little crazy taking photos. :-). Carol

I'm by no means certain that Schoolhouse's rose is 'Duc de Cambridge', but it would be something to look into. The proliferation is sadly characteristic of this variety, and other characteristics sound as though they might match.

Carol, thank you for the warm welcome. I just added Belle de Crécy to the gallica thread, that's all I have from these classes but I would love to get more. I don't have a big garden though, unfortunately.

I am not Welsh originally, in fact not even British, I moved to Wales because I absolutely love it here. I am in 85+% Welsh-speaking area and accepted the challenge of learning the language but it's been even harder than growing roses here :)

Schoolhouse, that looks like something I have found in my area. I think mine is Duc de Cambridge. The flowers have a tendency to proliferate. Does yours get a lot of those types of misshapen flowers?

@schoolhouse_gwagain

Your rose is commonly grown under the name 'Duc de Cambridge' or 'Desiree Parmentier' in the USA. Who knows which - if either - is correct, but at least now you know that your rose is the same as the variety grown by these names. I collected my plant from a west-end residential home in Toronto, Canada about 15 years ago.

An excerpt from my account of collecting cuttings of it:

"A woman living a few minutes walk from my house had a very large plant of this rose growing in her front yard, and one day I stopped when I saw her out in her yard tidying up. When I asked her if she knew the name of her rose, I realized that she didn't speak English at all well. (she was an older Chinese woman) She could only answer, "Rose", and smile. I asked her if I might have a cutting or two of her shrub, and she nodded yes and gestured to the bush. I started to remove a couple of modest cuttings, and she proclaimed loudly, "no, no!" and rushed back into her house. I thought perhaps she had not realized what I had asked for, and had run to get help. Instead she came back with large loppers in hand, and proceeded to chop off several large branches of this rose for me! I had to stop her from cutting, as I had much more than I could use. I had a bowl full of Desirée Parmentier blooms in my kitchen for days, as well as all the cuttings I could possibly root."

Its a lovely thing, with an outstanding perfume (which makes the best rose water and/or rose jelly!) but it lasts for only about 48 hours before it shatters. Its not pure Gallica (the foliage betrays perhaps Centifolia influence? HMF lists it as a Damask), having a much more upright, branched architecture. I've never seen it get Blackspot or Mildew, but occasionally a bit of Rust (not enough to warrant action). Whatever it really is, this is one of my favorite once-bloomers.

Carol, I'm always on the lookout! Most of what I find are various multiflora and wichurana ramblers. There's an abandoned old house near where I work. After working here 10 years, it occurred to me to take a walk around the house to see if there were any old plants. Sure enough, there's a big clump of peony in bud. Looking forward to seeing it bloom. I know you and I are both always on the lookout for old irises too :)

-Chris

Another few blooms of 'Tour de Malakoff' from this morning. The haunted gray-purple hue is impossible to capture in a photograph. You know what I mean if you've ever seen this rose in person.

'Mme. Hardy', of course.

A seedling I discovered when clearing Blackberries recently. My guess is that this is a 'Marbree' seedling from about 15 years ago (there is no tag on the plant to ID it). It is not immediately apparent when inspecting the blooms that the outer 2-3 rows of petals have bold white spots on them!

Ralph Moore's un-named hybrid, which Burling nicknamed "Nutshop". Its a complex hybrid of (Schoener's Nutkana X Christopher Stone) X (Mark Sullivan X Golden Moss). No open blooms at this time, sorry.

Paul - your Marbree seedling is so beautiful! Your garden must have so many hidden treasures from your years of breeding programs. Thank you for sharing them!

Love these!

Paul, I didn't know that Duc de Cambridge and Desiree Parmentier were confused. I bought Desiree a few years ago and this should be the first year I see a lot of flowers so I'm anxious to compare them. Adding to the mystery for me is my plant of Francofurtana ’Paeonienrosa,’ which I was convinced was identical to Duc de Cambridge last year.

Wow! I stepped away from this thread for a few hours, and when I came back, there was a string of beautiful new photos!

Paul, thank you for all the photos! Tour de Malakoff and Madame Hardy are two of the loveliest old roses, and each one is surely a contender for best in class. Tour de Malakoff may be my favorite Centifolia. There's a photo in one of Peter Beale's books which captures Tour de Malakoff, William Lobb and apricot tulips all tangled together. That one photo of violet-mauve-grey TdM ignited love at first sight many years ago. It still strikes me as odd that most people I meet have never heard of TdM...or so many other classic old roses. Even Madame Hardy, whose blooms are about as close to perfection as any white rose ever comes.

Your Marbree seedling is both fascinating and completely charming! Its shade of pink falls into that silvery-lavender range that inspires me to believe in fairies, and the speckling just adds to the illusion, as if the fairies gave the petals a good dusting before flying off to tend other flowers, I wish ALL your roses were in commerce! How can this rose NOT be in gardens everywhere?

I love the mossiness of "Nutshop" and would be thrilled if you get a chance to snap a picture of an open bloom! If speckled, silvery pink roses are gifted to us by fairies, surely Moss roses are where fairies reside when they are at rest. Carol

One of my daughter's fairy houses made from an overturned clay pot:

'Fa's Marbled Moss'

An un-named remontant Damask seedling from (probably) R. damascena bifera:

Because this is part Damask in pedigree, I will include it here; 'Errinnerung an Brod', by R. Geschwind:

I think this thread is a wicked plot to encourage gardeners to grow more old roses. Thanks to all for many excellent photos! P.S. I hope the plot succeeds.

Wanted to post earlier but Houzz wouldn't let me comment.

Marie Louise - damask

Makes a great hedge row with a wonderful fragrance.

Coming a bit late to this thread. Gorgeous OGRs, everyone! Here are a few of mine from this year.

'Königin von Dänemark' (alba)

'Madame Hardy' (damask)

'Ispahan' (damask) with 'Peggy Martin' photobombing in the top left corner :-). This is a small detail from a huge 'Ispahan' which I pegged this year and it didn't mind it at all, worked fine.

And the first year for 'Alba semi-plena' which I still have to figure out how to train. The idea was to have her grow up the trellis and climbing hydrangea, but this gorgeous rose had different ideas. I didn't want to do anything to redirect those branches moving away from the trellis because right above it was the nest of robins and I didn't want to frighten them.

So beautiful! I love the combination of the light purple clematis with "Alba semi-plena." Your "Ispahan" and "Madame Hardy" are stunning as well! And the delicate pink on the 'Königin von Dänemark' is just lovely!

Thanks for sharing the beautiful pictures,

damask_rose : )

Thank you very much, damask_rose. That clematis, 'Zara', was a workhorse this summer.