claudetteireland - great idea. Seeing is believing, indeed!

Great information - especially from the pros! Thank you California Faucets. Now who knows who is best to go to for a new kitchen faucet and other plumbing upgrades in the greater Seattle area (including Bellevue and Redmond)? I’ve looked at Keller Supply but only online, and have gone to their showroom in the Tri-Cities, WA. I would like the best here in western WA?

You can buy three sometimes four faucets for the price of one faucet at the plumbing supply. I believe you when you say they are better quality than the big box store, but seriously? The extra expense is over the top. In 10 years time, the price of my kitchen faucet has almost tripled. I am trying to get the same exact faucet for my new home. I see no justification for the astronomical prices. It may be more cost effective to buy a cheap faucet and change it out in 8 or 10 years when it breaks!

So buying fixtures from Houzz is not a good idea?

Not a chance. Go to a local plumbing supply house, better quality and service even if more $$ upfront.

Faucets sold at Lowes, Home Depot type stores are different - trust me! The company I do research for does research for major plumbing brand and for major brands of lots of other things. All statements made above about differences in quality are completely true! On a side note, same goes for things like a Mr. Coffee coffemaker sold at a discount store. Not the same quality, cheaper, will break faster, finish will come off sooner. A John Deer tractor that's a great price at Home Depot? Not the same. I could go on with appliances too. Cheaper yes, all the way around. Manufacturers of these things do separate runs with cheaper internal parts for big box and discount stores. My father-in-law is a plumber and will not warranty the cheaper faucets. Check the SKU#, correct, may be very similar but not the same. Example Moen tagline: "Buy it for looks, buy it for life." Means every time it breaks, and it will, they will ship you the part to fix it free of charge. If you like to keep fixing faucets or hiring someone to do that, go ahead and buy the cheaper faucet.

THANK you! I have always suspected this to be true.

Everyone here has addressed faucets so I'll add something different: Do not use a plastic-bodied tub valve! Only use a brass-bodied valve for obvious reasons.

I called Delta and the customer service rep said a Delta is a Delta is a Delta...all production on one line, all valves and cartridges exactly the same.

Well the plumber gets at least 25% mark up at supply house and zero at Depot you can figure out the rest.

The box stores do have specific models made just for them and those are the ones to stay away from but they also have the same model the plumbing supply has.

Todays world is full of people wanting to live beyond their means. So we get these cheap hollowed out products that resemble a better quality product. These are the faucets that are chromed plastic and what you should stay away from. They look great but don't function.

The only truth is the box stores cater to a certain price group and specialty stores cater to a higher end which we hope sells better products.

Your biggest concern is finding a product that meets USA quality and testing. A lot of these offshore copy cat pieces don't and you wouldn't drink water out of them if you saw their internals and materials they use. There is a web site where you can look up just about every faucets to see if it is certified or not.

Yes, they have the same cartridges, etc but the material they make the spout out of can vary. Nowadays people are price-driven first and consider quality second. Look at reviews online and that will be a help, too. If the bad reviews all mention the same problem, like the finish not lasting, etc., then you can expect it to happen to yours, too.

I read this conversation with interest. We're in the middle of a bathroom renovation and decided on the Moen Boardwalk series single hole faucet with a lever handle in brushed nickel. My research on websites for MOEN. Build.com and Lowe's led me to the conclusion in this case, at least, that the "big box": item was the way to go.

While appearing identical, the products have different model numbers and spec sheets DO vary based on the vendor. They all call out Metal (not identified) construction, non metal pop up waste assembly,the same Duralast cartridge. and the same warranty. The primary difference seems to be the flow limit and what they say about lead content. All three state compliance with WaterSense standards and Federal water safety standards/CA Prop 65 requirements. I couldn't readily find product weights listed, which might suggest more differences in body material; however the one we bought at Lowes is impressively heavy.

The spec sheet from Lowes specifies 1.5 GPM at 60 psi (but website says 1.2 GPM ). The spec sheets on the MOEN site and on Build.com specify 1.2 instead of 1.5 gpm, which qualifies them to meet CA efficiency standards.

The MOEN and Build.com spec sheets say the product complies with NSF 372 - which ( in my non-professional review) apparently limits lead in brass to no more than 0.25%.

The spec sheet for the Lowes product states "Contains no more than 0.25% weighted average lead content " rather than stating compliance with that standard. (Maybe they didn't want to pay for the actual certification when they contracted for the product?) But the box DOES say it meets NSF 372.

From Moen: $618 MSRP- Model WS84805

http://www.moen.com/shared/docs/product-specifications/ws84805sp.pdf

From Lowes: $89 Model 84805

http://pdf.lowes.com/dimensionsguides/026508262467_meas.pdf. Spec sheet calls it a Lowes Exclusive product. Perhaps it's considered a loss leader.....

From Build.com- $235.83 Model 6200 Series

https://s1.img-b.com/build.com/mediabase/specifications/moen/1219841/moen-6200-specification-sheet.pdf

This appeared to me to match the Moen site's spec sheet exactly.

About NSF 372

http://www.nsf.org/newsroom_pdf/nsf61-372_lead_insert_LWD-1350-0513.pdf

Build.com is owned by Ferguson's just fyi. When I ordered Delta fixtures from Home Depot and Lowes they were shipped to me directly from Delta. On the Delta website you can see which fixtures are made only for the big box stores and which are not. I only purchased ones that were not exclusives to the big box stores.

wow,just getting ready to purchase all plumbing for bathroom remodel. This was incredibly helpful!

"Exclusive to Lowe's" means just that, it won't be the same as from a plumbing supplier, even if they look alike, and for that price variance, loss leader or not, I guarantee there is a difference! We have noticed the difference in the weight from a plumbing supplier vs big box store, metal parts weigh more than plastic ones.

I noticed that the quote from Moen does list differences (although characterized as 'subtle') including". . . and metallic or non-metallic drain assemblies". That sounds pretty much like the 'box store plastic' vs 'plumbing supply metal' discussions above.

I believe you get what you pay for. If you want to replace something (and what a waste!) over and over again, go cheap. But if you want the product to last, spend a little more up front. You won't regret it. (That is, of course, if you aren't someone who changes fixtures and appliances just to "update" the look.)

Just got off the phone with Moen. They stated if the model number is identical then the product is identical. You can save by not having a third party mark up the product. However stay away from big box exclusive products which usually are poor quality imitations.

Also see above the reply from Moen.com

They are all the same ,I have called the company and ask them. . They posted this on the https://www.moen.com/customer-support/faq/faq-012

Plumbers love to promulgate this fallacy! I am currently building a new home and my plumber's pricing was 20-40% higher than Amazon and Home Depot prices for the same Delta and Moen models. He gave me the same reasoning, that "the quality of the Delta products he gets through his wholesaler (Ferguson) is much better than the big box stores." However, both Moen (as mentioned by others above) and Delta state otherwise. According to Delta's website "There are no differences. All Delta faucets are of the same quality, regardless of distribution channel." See https://www.deltafaucet.com/service-parts/frequently-asked-questions/general

For Delta (and I am assuming all other brands) there is no difference. For Delta, you can find the answer to this on their website. I had also both called and submitted the question Delta- both responses were exactly the same- that there is no difference between trade store versus retail, they all come from the same warehouse.

Ednamaee, that may be what you were told, but it is simply not true at all.

I was in the field as a plumber for 15 years and currently am an outside sales representative for a plumbing/HVAC/kitchens and bath supplier. There is a major difference between a supplier and a box store, much like most have touched on (metal to plastic).

Jacandclay, this is not true.

15 years install, three years sales experience, plus I sell and deal with delta on a daily basis.

Jeffery Armstrong:

I will donate $1,000.00 to the charity of your choice in your name if you can substantiate your claim that there are substantial quality differences on name brands between plumbing supply house fixtures and those from a big box.

And by "substantiate" I mean something like you've got a confidential corporate email telling the factory to put the cheap parts in on Wednesdays, which is when they manufacture for the BBs.

There are no "cheaper part days" at the factories. The manufacturers aren't lying, but you are. My money is safe. Shame on you.

You are out of your mind.

Go buy a Kohler toilet and bring it in and we will dismantle it, as well as cut it in half.

Bring in delta or Kohler shower trim, and I will unbox mine and you can see the difference in cartridge, as well as parts, plus plastic to metal ratio, more specifically, the valves are completely different.

You are on drugs, if you think that in my 15 years of install, I didn't know the absolute difference in box store to supply house, and in my three years in sales and working with the vendors I don't know this to be 100%

You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts, and in this case the facts are against you.

Shame on you for giving your two cents on something you do not know about and insulting someone that was not only in the trades, but works with the vendors and sells these items.

🤡

and you are very arrogant there is not much differences there are better quality products from same manufacturers as with any product but as with same model numbers they are the same. sorry you feel so offended but some peoples knowledge.

I owned a plumbing supply in Chicago for many years. (I don't own it anymore) The Moen faucets sold ONLY at home centers are a much inferior product. Don't buy them. Usually you can tell the "fake" Moen from the 5 digit or more product number. The real Moen is 4 digit product numbers. Home Depot and Lowes do carry the real Moen faucets at very good prices and they are outstanding faucets. I rarely got a return on real Moen faucets. But whenever I sold cheap faucetry I had tons of problems and returns.

what a hilarious statement from Moen....

This is what Moen says:

Moen...[www.moen.com]

"Do all Moen products consist of one standard of quality regardless of whether the distributor is a retail or wholesale supplier?
Moen's production line does not differentiate between wholesale and retail models. There is only one grade of brass, only one grade of cartridge and only one grade of warranty coverage - the best. While the numbering system for Moen's wholesale distributors and retail distributors may vary and subtle installation and trim differences may exist (these may include, but are not limited too, packaging, threaded or slip-fit style tub spouts and metallic or non-metallic drain assemblies). The quality and limited lifetime warranty against leaks, drips, materials, and workmanship remain the same for all of our products."

So their answer is that they are all the same, just made of different materials and put together by different methods........ derrrr....that means they are not the same. Its like Ford telling you their f150 is the same as their f350

I've skimmed through the comments and I'm pretty sure nobody has mentioned the fact that big box stores buy their products from the manufacturer by the 1000s which in turn cost them less and allows them to charge less. A national store (home Depot) pays and charges a heck of a lot less to moen or Kohler for the same product that a regional plumbing supplier ( F.W. Webb) carries and buys from that same manufacturer. Just like in the stores when its states that if you buy one fitting it's $2.00 but if you buy 100 it's $1.25. same concept works and Is applied to the suppliers when they are buying from manufacturers. If a company is buying 20,000 of your faucets every order they expect a better price than the company who is only buying 5,000 every order. It's quantity that defines the price difference not quality.

If the quality was different the manufacturer usually changes the name they sell it under at, which point they are known as a "parent company". For instance Stanley tools makes DeWalt, black n decker and Bostitch. Ford makes Mercury, Honda makes Acura. heck the ford explorer is a Mercury mountaineer and the Honda Civic is an Acura TL. They are practically identical other than a few quality/ luxury differences.

Quality is different 🤦‍♂️

Jeffery Armstrong:

Substantiate your argument please.

I posted on this thread 1.5 years ago.  Happy to report that my box store deltas are still going strong and with no wear.  I remodeled 3 bathrooms with deltas from lowes, saved me thousands of dollars.

Please report back in five years. I don’t think 1.5 years is a good amount of time. If it does fail are you fixing it yourself? Or will you hire a plumber? Will you call lowes to get the part you need? Suddenly the ”savings” are not as much over time. The average life of a retail exclusive is 5 years vs 20 in a showroom. I work in a family owned plumbing buissness that has been around since the 1960’s. I have gone to trainings at delta’s factory and American standard. The big box exclusives are made with more plastic parts. We do share several models in common as well. Sometimes they will get in multiple of an item for less. But most of the time, If the product number is the same, our prices will be close sometimes even better than lowes. The knowledge and care you get in a showroom is worth something. We are educated and can make sure you get what you need. If you are always concerned with the cheapest, people like us will not be around. No showrooms to see the products, no service after the sale, and lower quaity products being made. When your products do fail, who are you going to call to help you figure out what part you need? Many times you will end up calling someone like me. I hope your products do last. But your uninformed post is sharing information that is not true and could be harmful to people like me. If the item is an exclusive, it is not the same.

I always believed the "myth" that big box stores sell an inferior product. And maybe it is true, maybe it isn't. I really don't know. What I do know is that I bought a faucet and sink from a plumbing supply store. The faucet from the plumbing supply store needed a new cartridge a few years later which the manufacturer provided free of charge. My plumber installed it and in doing so, cracked my sink, which the warranty did not protect. In another bathroom, I bought a new faucet to install on an old sink and figured it didn't have to be high quality because the whole bathroom would be upgraded at some point. That faucet, the cheapest I could find at a big box store, is still going strong 15 years later. I really don't know who or what to believe. And I'm in the market for a new faucet and am not sure what to buy.

IT IS NOT A MYTH. I built the house. I have two moen bathroom faucets next to each other. They are very very different, it ain't subtle. The one from the plumbing store (only had one) is solid all the way from the sink to the spout exit. The other one is not. The underside of the the lower part of the spout is not nickel, not brushed, it's a flat chrome piece. From top down they are identical, guts are identical, but exterior craftmanship is not even close. And that's why one was $85 cheaper than the other with the same model #. I bought 'em, I installed 'em. And there still there right now. This is not a myth.

how they do it in the electronic stores? Such as Best Buy v. Costsco. Let say a TV. The model will have one number or one digit different. The picture quality is the same. But you don't get the 25 watt speakers, you get 10 watt. You don't get 4 HDMI, you get 2. Same TV kinda......

Both of my Moen faucets have performed identical, but they are very different from an exterior perspective. They even have a different filter at the end of the spout. It's subtle. But different.

"This is not a myth."

No, it's anecdotal evidence.

The idea that major faucet manufacturers manufacture faucets with inferior parts for the big box stores has never, ever, been verified.

For proof, I'm not talking about anecdotes, or some Billy Bob on You Tube sawing faucets in half, I'm talking about a copy of correspondence between the big boxes and the manufacturers that confirms that they will manufacture inferior faucets to be sold more cheaply by the big boxes.

"Hey Jim, we're building for the big boxes all next week so be sure to put away all the metal parts and get out the plastic." Seriously? You believe this?

The mom-n-pops retailers can't buy faucets by the trainload. The big boxes can and do. That, and that alone, is why their prices will remain unbeatable for the same product. What do the mom-n-pops do? Spread myths about quality, that's what.

Jeffery? Jeffery Armstrong? It's been a year and I'm still waiting for you to substantiate your claim.

Check out this comparison between HomeDepot and Ferguson faucets: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LVjxdyTf6U&ab_channel=TwinHomeExperts

Timur:

Notice how he never shows the model numbers on the boxes. That's because he's comparing apples to oranges to perpetuate his myth.

Ten years ago, the Moen rep showed us two faucets that were the same model. They were identical looking, but had different weights; he then took them apart and showed one had a brass valve, while the other was plastic. He told us, "Every year, Home Depot beats us up to lower our prices, but there's only way to do that — we have to hollow out the products. So their products could have plastic valves, while those in our channel will have brass or ceramic valves and come with lifetime warranties."

So for one model at least, there was a difference in quality. But I'm confident there are many more than that.

Would manufacturers really be so crazy as to run a metal day versus a plastic day? It's no different than when Delta makes Dryden faucets one day, then Lahara the next. If they're different products — including brass versus plastic — they have different runs.

Are there crazy margins in our channel? Not compared to other products. I'm upfront with everyone: "There's such a race online to be the first to sell the products for free that there's not much profit in the industry for any of us, including the big boxes, our supplier, or us. We add a little bit, which works out to 20% off MSRP. So if the faucet is listed at $400, we sell it at $320."

By the way, it's not just fixtures. My brother is contractor who was having a problem with a floor adhesive that wasn't working as he remembered. He called their customer service line and got out of the rep that they had to rework their formula to lower costs.

Finally, on the other side of the coin, we sell a line of cabinets that are made in the same factory as one of theirs, though ours come with more features standard than theirs. I had a customer show me her quote last month; we compared and calculated that we were selling for over 10% less. Besides price, we've been doing it for over ten years and you'll deal with the two of us every time.

So we know we offer good value. But try competing against decades of "the low price leader" advertising. I'd bet if you added up the four Home Depots that are about five miles from our store, they are probably outselling us with their somewhat lesser quality and more expensive cabinets by about 50-to-1.

Go purchase two plumbing items & then dismantle them. You will see the difference. It’s in the internal parts. Plastic vs brass. I’ve had clients not believe me in the past. I’ve told them to go purchase one from HD & I’ll buy the “same” one at a professional manufacturer. Once they touch, feel & dismantled them they understand the difference. The plastic parts don’t last as long & you can often not get replacement parts. Ive experienced this in my own purchase for my house as well as spoke with many plumbers over the yrs who see it too & won’t warrant the item. The cost of a plumber to come replace a faucet, toilet etc is far greater than the price difference in any fixture. You really do get what you pay for!

My thousand dollar bounty still stands.

Your thousand dollar bounty seems kind of useless, doesn't it?

A number of us have seen two versions of fixtures with the same names, same looks, and nearly the same model numbers, yet different internals. But you're telling us these are just strange oddities and we shouldn't jump to conclusions until we find correspondence between the Big Boxes and the manufacturers showing it was all planned?

I'd rather believe my own eyes.

@Foothills Kitchen & Bath, are you talking about "nearly the same model numbers" or *actually* the same? If they are exactly the same can the quality be trusted to be the same?

Nearly the same model numbers.

As I've told clients, there's a pretty simple answer for this, and from a marketing perspective I have no idea why the manufacturers make it more difficult for themselves: Just give the items different names. Do that and no one would be shocked to learn that, even though Thunder from Home Depot looks the same as Lighting from the plumbing channel, they have different innards, warranties and prices.

They give them the same names because then unsuspecting buyers will think they're getting the same product at a lower price. And everyone loves a bargain. But as the old saw goes, if something looks too good to be true, it probably is.

They are getting the same item. They are getting the same item at an unbeatable low price because of the huge buying power leverage of the big boxes, the savings of which are passed on to consumers, not by building the "same" faucet with cheaper parts.

Geesh, this myth won't die.

Pfister support response.-

Hello

Thank you for taking the time to contact us. We apologize for the delay in response to your inquiry.

We understand that you are asking if the faucets are manufactured differently. We appreciate you bringing this to our attention so we can help you. Please note that all of our faucets are made the same way in manufacturing. There is no difference between purchasing the same model number from a retailer and a wholesaler. Our products are backed with a limited lifetime warranty for the original purchase of the product.

Pfister parts can be found for sale online using any major search engine. They can also be found and/or ordered at home improvement centers, hardware stores, and plumbing supply stores. If a part is not available in a specific store, it can usually be special ordered for you. Retailers are found through our Where to Buy page (link below). Any new individual part and/or product purchased will be covered under the lifetime warranty for that specific part and/or product.

http://www.pfisterfaucets.com/where-to-buy

We hope the information we provided was helpful. Please create a new case if you need support in the future, and we'll be happy to assist.

Sincerely,
Diana M.
Pfister Support Team
1-800-732-8238