You are wanting to stick to the script of space for aisles. However, to understand if the space given is adequate, a listing of appliances and cabinets helps to understand the work zones and flow within the kitchen (the drawing is very primitive). A broader view of the adjacent rooms, doors, and windows helps understand the flow through the kitchen. Then aisles can be addressed, and other things if you are open to advice.

If you are stingy with information? That's the stingy advice that comes back. Not in a manner that means charitably unhelpful. But that will be the very UN intentional result

The new kitchen isn't out in the "back forty" - it's part of the rest of the living environment to include how you come and go from a garage, to a family room space. To stairs to a second floor to a dining room or who knows what. It lives within a context. You're being asked that context. You don't have to provide it. It is far better if you do. For YOU.

Here is more inclusive floor plan. Hope it clarifies the context.

I had to scribble a little but I hope you can get an idea.

Where's the dining room? Is this your only eating area?

We have living room to the right of the main entrance but no formal dining room.

Yikes. Okay. Your family cannot sit comfortably together for a meal the way you've planned this kitchen. I think you need to abandon any plan for counter seating.

I cant read the dimensions on your drawing. Try again?

First off, your aisles are at least 3" narrower than you think they are. You appear to be measuring to/from cabinets, which is incorrect.

Aisles are measured to/from the items that stick out into them the farthest -- appliance handles, counter edges, etc.

Cabinet measurements only include the boxes, they do not include doors/drawer fronts, hardware, or the 1.5" overhang in front of the cabinets.

So, the aisle b/w the sink and island is really only 39" (42" - 1.5" overhang on sink side - 1.5" overhang on island) and that is far too narrow.

The refrigerator will stick out around 6" beyond the cabinet boxes. So, that means the aisle on that side is 54" - 1.5" counter overhang on island - 6" for the refrigerator = 46.5". (The doors & handle must stick out past the all surrounding items to be able to fully access the inside of the refrigerator.)

The minimum recommended aisles are:

• 42" for a one-person work aisle (really a one-person household)
• 48" for more than one person

With a 5-person family, you definitely need the 48", at least. Even if your children aren't helping out right now, they will be soon when you start teaching them to cook and cleanup -- necessary life skills for both girls & boys. (I'm assuming your family is made up of both adults children. Regardless, you are a large-ish family, so the aisles should be at least 48" wide.)

The seating island will not fit 5, it will only fit 4. Two (or three) people cannot share the same leg/knee space like you show. You will need to extend the island at least another foot.

(What about guests? If one of your children has a friend over for dinner, where will the friend sit?)

I also don't think you have room for an island. If there are no seats at the island, you will need at least 48" b/w the island counter and the edge of the table -- the edge that's closest to the island, not the far edge. If there are seats at both the island & table and they're back-to-back, you need 60".

This is an example of what we need:

Note that the widths of each wall/window/door/doorway and the distances between each wall/window/door/doorway are measured and clearly labeled.

We also need a sketch of the entire floor the Kitchen is on. It doesn't need to be to-scale, but it should accurately show how the rooms relate to each other and should include all interior & exterior doors. The sketch will help us see how traffic flows in, around, and through the Kitchen. Label the front entry and family entry. The family entry is usually a garage or side entry, but it might not be. It's helpful to know which door you use to bring in groceries.

See the Featured Answer in the "New to Kitchens? Read Me First!" thread for more information.

Is that a cooktop or range on the "top" wall? The way it's drawn, it appears to be a cooktop. (Ranges stick out around 3" or so beyond cabinet boxes.)

You show an oven next to the refrigerator in your latest drawing but none of the cabinets along that wall are deep enough for an oven. You need 24" of depth for an oven cabinet & oven(s).

you have a corner in the lower right...not used as it should be in your plan.....I would alternatively make a U shape kitchen...the island becomes a peninsula and hooks to the right side... give yourself a 30-32 in sink base for a single sink so you have five feet across or near that. the peninsula can extend out about as much as you want leaving the 42-45 inches walkway along the fridge wall......move that cabinetry in the lower right to the longer peninsula....base drawers. Youd be able to put a nice pedestal table there and then a bonus with stools on peninsula overhang. It doesnt make sense to butt the table like that when you have a dedicated corner where a table works AND you can place at least a couple peninsula stools. here's the shape altho this one I dont believe is 5 feet across. if you put the sink on the peninsula you could place fridge on stove wall or right side wall but guess you have that recess on your left wall for the fridge.

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Here is the draft of my kitchen again.

The second window closer to the family room is lower than the first one, this is why we stoped counter before. Also i wasnt sure if i need counter space there.

Now i am thinking what if i continue counter all the way and get rid of the island and just put a big dining table right in the middle.

Would it be more practical?

And this is a rough drawing of our first floor. Hope it is readable :)

Re; "just put a dining table in the middle" . There has been a bit of that showing up lately and you have a big space. But most of the time the perimeter has a lot of style / aesthetic to really pull off the whole effect.

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Give thought to where you are inserting details / what kind of details/ how will the visuals play on all three sides of your walls for those seated...as everything will be on display all the time. It could be a nice result .... but a LOT of attention to detail.

What about the existing layout do you not like?

I have a feeling your existing layout is the optimal plan and that you just need updated features like all-drawer base cabinets and upper cabinets that go all the way to the ceiling.

It's also possible that this is not the original kitchen to the house and that a remodel encroached into the breakfast nook too much making it not the most comfortable of dining areas? I get pretty passionate about protecting dining spaces that are a minimum of 9' 6" across. And yours looks to be around 7' 4" -- no wonder you want a change!

With the existing layout my concern is the dining table.. i am not sure if we will be comfortable sitting all the time at the island height, also i am not sure if the size of that table will fit 5 people.

Also with the existing layout I am not sure about the empty space by the second window.

Thats why i start thinking to extand that counterspace through the second window which gives me the cabinet and counter space to substitute the island and put a large dining table in the middle?

I would not sign off on a darn thing. Go back and put actual dimensions of everything to your rough sketch of the first floor. Living room, office, all of it.

My guess is you need a reset, different opening and re purposing of space:Such as..........re thinking your LIVING room into a family room, your family room or most of it into a really great, casual all purpose dining room.

As you have planned the kitchen, and trying to squish ANY truly comfortable dining condition into that kitchen ? Not looking good. And the low elevation window probably needs a change as well.

We haven't seen the EXISTING kitchen ( where do all five of you eat NOW?) Haven't seen the family room, or any other public space around this kitchen

If it seems we are dragging information from you? Well...............yes, sort of : )

Jan Moyer,

Unfortunately we already passed the stage where we could move the wall or opening.. now I can only work with what space we have... We love our family room and where it's located, off the kitchen...

I can vision our dining table there when guests are coming which I can fold down after in a form of side table, for example.

Another solution for large dining table is our living room.. but walking back and forth with dishes is not ideal :).

But really the main headache of mine for right now is our kitchen.. how to organize it better for everyday 5 people use. Especially everyday sitting area.

Right now we dont really have a kitchen.. just a 30" heigh dining table in the middle of the kitchen, stove and another table which serve us as counter soace :). And actually I like the airy feeling of our kitchen now :) So I start doubting if I have a space in our kitchen for the island?

Especially after Buehl said that 40x60 table will be not enough space for 5 people.

Before that, we had a peninsula which was attached to the counter between the two windows and than we had a table by the second window. And we were pretty squashed there... wasnt enough space to move chairs around and the person by the window was locked there :)

U nfortunatly I didnt make the picture of our old kitchen :( but I hope you got an idea.

I updated the scetch of our 1st floor plan with the measurements of the rooms attached to the kitchen and i am gladly provide more information if needed. :)

The office room and bedroom.. i cant touch those rooms as they serve the purpose.:)

I'm glad you're sticking with us. We'll help you sort this out.

I think somewhere in one of your drawings you wrote that the fridge can't move. Why?

Can you move the door to the garage all the way down to the powder room wall?

A 40" x 60" table is absolutely room to seat 5 people. I say this with confidence because over the holidays we used a 30" x 60" table to seat 5. If we had pulled the table end out away from the wall, it could have sat 6. I'm not sure why Buehl disagrees. But it may be because some of your drawings show overlapping ideas, which makes it difficult to tell exactly what the dimensions are on some components.

I love the dining table as island look, but as a cook having chairs between me and the "working side" of the table would be constantly annoying. I would want a plan for somewhere to stash the chairs except at mealtime, which would get complicated. Here's another idea: what if you made the island a 24" deep island, with no seating, and then butted the dining table against the island, as in your picture? You could do a 48" by 72" table, which could seat 2-3 on each long side, 2 on the short sides (leg style and placement will determine exactly how many the table can seat).

Sheloveslayouts,

Unfortanately I cant move any doors or walls.

There is a cut out in the wall for refrigirator to accomodate its depth, we cant move it at this point.

Where was the fridge in the original kitchen before you moved things around?

@mcarroll16 I think she's referencing my comment where I said a family of five won't enjoy a meal together comfortably at that 40x60 counter height section of a T shaped island posted in the original post. This is her only dining space.

I do not disagree with you that a 40x60 30" high dining table can seat 5 people. I just wouldn't want it pushed up against an obstacle and 36" high if it was my families only dining surface.

Ah. Yes, I agree with that. Actually, I wouldn't want any countertop-height table to be my family's only dining surface.

Mcaroll16 and sheloveslayouts,

I also doubt that we can seat all the time by the counter height table comfortably.

Originally we had a dining table by the window..it wasnt comfortable for us space wise but as a regular heigh we liked it.. although i would raise it couple inches since we are all tall people.

our fridge originally was placed by the entrance on the wall where now the range is and the range was on peninsula...

i dont mind chairs by my working place, it wouldnt bother me.. I really like the look of one level table in the middle..

i am not sure how 24" island would look in this kitchen. I always thought that 36" is the minimum.

Maybe i do one large table like 32" hight in the middle and put some cabinets on the working side? it will serve as a working space a little.. I can always sit and cut stuff there:) and it will be comfortable for my family and maybe couple guests and it will look good?

What do you all think?

Really appreciate your time taking!!!!!

I'm having trouble understanding your idea. You would have a 32" high table, and one side would butt up against cabinets? Would the cabinet countertop be 32" high? 36" high?

Moving the range to the wall was a good move, but putting the fridge a mile from the sink was probably not. Are you open to eliminating or changing the nook windows?

I tried a few things with your kitchen and landed on a couple key recommendations.

Whatever you do, you must protect at least 9 feet by 12 feet of clear floor space in the nook area. That is enough space for a 36" x 72" table that will seat 5 comfortably. Since this is the only dining area in a family home, you should not compromise on this -- not just for your pleasure, but also for resale value.

You really should reconsider moving the fridge. A fridge 16 feet from the sink is just no fun in the kitchen at all.

Without moving doorways or changing windows, you simply don't have room for counter seating. There's room for one stool to the right of the dishwasher for someone to perch and chat with you while you're at the little island or the sink, but there's just no room for overhangs here.

Sheloveslayouts,

Wow, thank you very much for your ideas!!! I will definitaly try to see how it is going to work tomorrow.

Mcarrol 16,

I meant to put dining table in the middle 32" hight without an island, or with the 24" island which is also 32" high. Sorry didnt word it right.

banquettes can help w using space as right up against the back of counter or built into a corner situation or sometimes under a window means numerous options....... straight bench is easy to use .....flexible possibilities for final dimension ....using space optimally and then on to choice of table ......whether round square or rectangle , dependng on the situation. here's two very different ones which shows how you can adapt the banquette concept. I like how sometimes they end up quite luxury depending on the details added or subtracted depending on occasion....or can be less so for day to day as well.

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Shelovslayouts,

I have tried to see how it is going to work and found out

if i leave 48" from the counter ( i plan to do .5" overhang) and protect 9', my island can be no more than 33"

if i leave 48" from the stove (29" deep including the handle) then the island can be no more tgan 29"

Also i tried to simulate 2 tables in parallel like your drawing shows and it gave me a little crowded look which I am not sure i liked :(

So I see two options here

Either i dont do island at all and put spacious dining table parallel the windows in the middle, and to compensate for the island cabinets, extend the countertop under the second window till the end?

Or do 36" island ( i cant imagine it any smaller) and attach the dining table 66" long to it? I dont think i can go with the longer table in this case.

Would love to hear your opinion :)

If you can draw out what youre considering, that will help us understand the questions.

The area with the low windows likely looks like the home's dedicated dining room. If you have an eye toward resale, I really wouldn't compromise that nook or do anything funky like add cabinets to it. I too have been intrigued by the eat-in kitchen's I've seen with a table surrounded by kitchen cabinets, but I can't imagine that's going to be desirable to any buyers shopping for a family home.

If you do something like my drawing above, you could try an island like the Ikea TORNVIKEN Instead of a built in island. It's 30" deep.

Irika, you might try searching Houzz photos for "narrow island." A 24" deep island can be really useful, and look great. I think the very best-looking ones are the moveable table type, with open shelves, but they can also look terrific when they are base cabinets with a finished back.

Here's an example from another post that went up today, https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6338679/two-adjacent-empty-kitchen-walls-need-decorating#28260350. The photos section will show many many more examples in all kinds of styles.

I really leaning towards not having island at all and instead have a spacious dining table which i can move around and sometimes use it for meal preparation.

I think I have enough counter and storage space around my kitchen.

Would appriciate your opinions!!!!

It's a home with two genuine living spaces, an office, and no dedicated, let alone remotely generous dining space. ? There was a way, but it wasn't considered, or was considered. Just saying that a "home" that barely seats five comfortably for a meal seems more an apartment........than home for family and friends

Or you re- consider the labels on spaces and how you use them.

Jan Moyer,

Kitchen meant to be combined with dining.. we didnt want to have a formal dining room...sorry for the confusion .. I just label it kitchen...

Yes, I understand - its essentially a three meal breakfast nook, and it is also too small. You are meaning/assuming perhaps, separate dining outside the actual work space and tiny nook....................as a crystal/mahogany dining area. I am not: )

If a family walked across a hall to watch tv in a space labeled "living"........are they not living and are they still not a family in front of a movie or football game? If they cross the same hall to sit at a big casual table to eat with comfortable chairs and place mats .......are they not relaxing over grilled cheese and tomato soup for lunch? Or maybe they just remained in a better kitchen at the big island, perched on a stool and left you with the crumbs and plate : ) and took their homework to the other dining space.

My point is only how you use available space. No labels.

These separations in functions were common at one time.

In fact I had a client in a charming 1990 build, years ago. Yup, 1990. The "family room" was literally across the center hall from the kitchen, mere 36 inch opening to both rooms. The flip side of that kitchen was an UN conditioned two season screened porch. Funny; the house sold in a single day. Twice.

We don't have a really accurate first floor whole, all the walls and every inch - making it hard to say what's possible. Maybe just a better blend between rooms...........but it's generous family space @ 16'8' x 17'6'" And just assumption based on what you sketched

I am personally not a fan of islands. In fact, one might categorize me as being ’anti-island’. :)

I love an old-school eat in kitchen, though. In your space, I think such a setup, with an extendable table, could work well.

@irika You've already remuddled this kitchen once and it didn't work out. This time around you were wise and sought help -- listen to the help you're being given.

I appreciate the frustration of small......anything. Inadequate anything.

That said? When pros or other posters ask for the surrounding areas......off, adjacent to , near a kitchen? We ask for a reason.

To my mind, you have constrictions imposed less by the house, and more by not considering the other spaces, and the kitchen as PART of that whole. Prior to any point you are now at in the reno. Just my opinion.

To this point? We have a very rough sketch of the whole living floor, not to any scale. We have no pictures of other areas as they are. You are reluctant to use any other space, for any other purpose. So........it seems a round and round we go- to not yet fabulously enjoyable in real time use.

I doubt you truly want a dining table and chairs, in the middle of the kitchen. Works in the old movies England 1930: ) Not so much here 2023.

Jan Moyer,

Here the pictures of my currant space.

Hope it helps to better understand my space.

Unfortanately i cant move the wall which divide family room and the kitchen. There are 2 bearing posts inside those walls.

in the first picture i moved the table all the way to the border with the family room and it gave me the room for 72" table and the island. When i turned the table in parallel with ghe island, it is blocking the way to the family room and looks overcrowded imo.

Sorry for the mess!!

You're still entirely focused on the kitchen. Take pictures from the kitchen , looking into the family room, toward the patio doors. Do the rest too.

I can see past the mess. That said? I think you'd be more able to focus, with a big tidy up : )

Oh man, I've been there with the folding-tables-as-counters and the utility sink in the kitchen. Brutal.

If you're tall, those 30" tables are a killer. While you sort all this out invest in two 36" tall 2' deep folding tables for counters. Your back will thank you. (And you can use them to try out your layout ideas)

https://www.amazon.com/Lifetime-4428-Adjustable-Folding-Utility/dp/B003YJPC2A/ref=asc_df_B003YJPC2A/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167166621599&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6373022352709559619&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9052589&hvtargid=pla-303379816484&psc=1

Anyone?

Really hopes to get some feedback/suggestions after posting all those pictures...

What I see...................: )

A lovely home with lovely views!! Fresh paint and flooring.

Completely DEVOTED to children, play - a living room and family room somewhat inconsiderate of adult comfort. For dining, OR gathering in general.

I will ask. How do you use the "living" room with the lovely view to the front garden? Children do not remain so forever. Their toys, do not remain forever. This it seems can not be your "FAMILY" room space with a television .....

These, your own words:

"We love our family room and where it's located, off the kitchen...

I can vision our dining table there when guests are coming which I can fold down after in a form of side table, for example.

Another solution for large dining table is our living room.. but walking back and forth with dishes is not ideal :)."

I agree, the living room is not ideal as dining. Especially with kids. ........

But you must pick a poison. You need comfortable, welcoming gathering aside from a feeding zone, and you do not have it.

See below.......( pics following text )

I won't ask what you are using the living room for. Seems to be just a rug and a chair. It's a waste. You don't want a formal dining, It just got left as a vacuous we don't need it? That said? And since you are bound and determined to not use family room as dining?

You move that tv..... you attractively cover that window in the family room with a nice shade. That can be a top down, bottom up. You set that tv, now mounted on a wall......on top of a closed cabinet, which will give you some storage for kids junk. YOU TUCK THAT DINING table and chairs to the former tv wall. You seat five and if you need six? You pull it away from that wall and when done? Back it goes.

Meaning this just below.......1/4 inch to one foot scale, and feet and inches do not lie. It's nothing more than your own provided dimensions.

and NOT this below

OR..............you give us the dimensions/drawing accurately and I will show you how to make the living room an attractive and comfy family room space, with tv and storage, and you turn that family room space into really!!!! comfortable dining.

You're stuck on one aspect of a home. A kitchen ISLAND. And you will remain so, unless you use all the space you've been afforded.

What's happening below?? A rug? with a chair a mile away? : )

No one argues children must play. ......the rest of life matters as well.

Jan Moyer,

Here are dimensions of our spaces

There is a fireplace right in the center of our family room which is closed right now . And Tv is right above it.. well supposed to be above it... it is tamporary on the stand I dont really see table there.. i have just 69" there before the fireplace..

I knew the dimensions of the room from the first sketch, which didn't show the fireplace AT ALL.

There are no mind readers here. When we ask for accurate drawings and dimensions, it includes things like a hearth.....windows.

When I said you need to pick a poison? I meant it. You have to decide the most important things. Island, COMFORTABLE dining, where you gather to watch tv......etc.

You have a 14 x 15 living room clearly mostly UN used. You have an office that must remain. A low window that "can't be changed" in the kitchen. Load bearing posts, ........what else?

At this point, nobody can help you, We've dragged dimensions and information from you for two solid weeks. The fireplace shows up TODAY.

You have a fireplace in the living room. Use it as family room! Both living and family room are barely furnished! They showcase some rugs! Make a fabulous dining /CASUAL in the family room. It's great to dine by a fire! Get a 48 x 96 table, add a great casual serving spot with storage! And get the island you want. The kitchen you want. I'm out. Maybe @ sheloveslayouts can help. it is what it is at this point. It's called roadblocks to the desired result. That result is? A great kitchen with island and !!! comfortable sit down dining for five, a very shortsighted number with any real convenience considered simultaneously. Where is HOMEWORK ...school projects....where are the friends ? or extended family?. You shouldn't have to set up card tables when another couple and THEIR kids come to dine. It all started here.......and it still is here.

Or you change your THINKING. Which is narrowly focused on the now of small children belonging to some "tall people" , (just in case you think I am not paying attention........)

You do this below? Have all the island you want. And use the living room for actual living,.....

Or..........not. Life, and circumstances . walls and windows. It is unclear what you expect from the house, whose size is not changing. Or you move to a house that provides exactly what you want. But you have over 200 square feet of You're Not Using It, in that living room. The drawing as close as I can come with missing dimensions.