I'm still getting my head around the garage/playroom. Do the kids crawl under the cars? Also wondering why you have two full bathrooms on a floor with no bedrooms. I would want an easy entrance from the garage to bring in groceries. Is an architect helping with these plans?

Yes, totally fine to close up the area where you placed the double ovens. Others have voiced reasonable alternatives to oven placement. I too wonder what the architect is thinking having a pantry not connected to the kitchen and having to talk through the den with groceries to get to the kitchen.

It’s existing where the kitchen is and den. Garage is a garage but we had in mind to possibly make a playroom so it’s labeled as such right now.

Latifolia - there used to be more bedrooms now there is just one which is labeled here multi purpose. Down the line we will make one smaller with no shower or bath.

Is there a wall between the formal living room and the dinette? Have you had a CKD look at these plans? Having trouble putting my finger on it, but it seems there is a lot of wasted hall space, more seating areas than necessary, and that you could get a better kitchen with improved access from the garage.

Right now the plan looks like a lot of ”what if we did this or that?”. It is hard to give any suggestions without knowing what your intentions are.

There is no wall between the dinette and the living room.

We never park the car in our garage and always enter through the front door. We don't really have any side entrance, at least not as of today.

Our other thought was to swap the fridge to the range wall but we will have in this case more of an angled exit from the kitchen to the dining room. This gives better landing zone for the fridge and better triangle.

Before spending a lot of money renovating the kitchen I would really think about what spaces you need in the home and what rooms you have and how to get the best functionality. Do you really need formal living and dining rooms and informal dinette and den/family room and a play room and a multipurpose room.

I think it would be worth the investment to hire a good designer to help you figure out how to make this home work for you.

Yes to formal living, formal dining, den and multipurpose (office, guest), playroom yes (no basement).

Labels are fun. As you close off the added kitchen entrance for better function, you lose the 'formal' aspect of your living room. You still have a formal dining room.

Is this building a home or a remodeling?

What has not yet been pointed out is that when using the formal dining room, the doorway to the kitchen comes into its own. Otherwise it seems a fair hike to deliver and remove meals. If this is a remodel, would suggest closing door and making the trip repeated times and see if closing that door still feels good…

I frquently pop trays out of oven to stir (ie we roast veggies probably twice a week or test cake, etc) - having to spin 180 degrees every time, especially across a walkway, seems annoying and completely unnecessary. If it were only way to fit 2 ovens that would be a different discussion but there is space for better placement. agree i find the 2 island arrangement here strange - not sure what second sink is for.

second sink is dairy for a kosher kitchen setup

dan1888 - that is a good point.

kazzh - i'm not following what your saying - are you able to maybe explain that a bit differently? thanks for the comments

mark - it's a remodel

I apologise, my comment now seems a little weird when I look more closely at your plan. I didn’t enlarge the image so assumed the doorway in question was between the kitchen and formal dining. On enlarging the image I see there is no door marked but it is only the imposition of the red circle which deceived me! So what does that get me - assume: makes an ass of me!

hm

You have revealed some key info and your original design is making more sense to me now given that you unload via the front door. For unloading groceries, I'd rather take the pink path instead of the yellow, but if you are cool with walking groceries through the living room, then close up the kitchen entrance in question.

However, Passover with double ovens in the entry between the dining room and kitchen is a disaster waiting to happen. If you close this off, put something infrequently used in that space so you are not slamming someone with an oven, fridge, or pantry door while running for the gefilte fish!

The amount of table seating makes sense, assuming you are actually host a lot of holiday meals.

Which path do you take now for unloading groceries? I assume the bedrooms are upstairs so which path will people take to get into the kitchen? Through the living room or through the dining room.

I would try to find another place for the ovens. Having oven doors opening into a doorway can be dangerous. If you want them on that wall then perhaps switch the ovens and the pantry.

kendrah: yes i agree BUT for the fact that from a utility perspective we get more in the kitchen by closing up that entry and the entry via the living room is the same distance so...

Taking into account some suggestions here about double oven placement and posting this new plan with two pantires flanking the fridge/freezer and double ovens along the range wall.

You don't have enough room for the islands as created.

And your island is a barrier between the fridge and your meat sink. (I'm assuming the sink on the island is the dairy one?) Plus it's a hike.

Kendrah's suggestion is much better but it would mean redoing the layout of the kitchen. Would you consider that?

What is the width of the fridge? Is it one large one or two smaller ones?

Cpartist: there is no barrier as the one closer to the dining room. Yes it’s a hike we know.

There seems to be plenty of space for the island. Lots of room all around. Where are you noticing a lack of room?

Another option with fridges closer to sink. Here we have a larger opening into the dining room (this is existing). But it's a diagonal out of the kitchen which we weren't sure if that's going to be awkard at all.

The advantages to this plan are that the fridge is closer to the sink as mentioned and there is a better landing zone behind the fridge with the island.

The double oven is up by the sink wall.

I personally wouldnt want to run through the dining room to the kitchen from the stairs, so I vote not to close the entrance off. I see kids running up and down the stairs, and a direct access to the kitchen makes more sense. Do you think you should lengthen that middle island? I feel like you could do better - a larger island, more storage and room for a double range would be important to me..

Can you move the kitchen here?

thanks rockybird - insightful - leaning towards the most recent design I posted which does not close off the entrance. we are working with some cabinets we already own and are tough to match so its difficult to extend the island though I feel you are 100% correct.

as for moving the ktichen over - I'm not sure why. We wish to have a formal dining room (very important) and informal dinette.

I’m not an expert, but it seems like it gives you a lot more options for space for the kitchen. You could have a little butler pantry to the dining area. Maybe more pantry sace in the area marked kitchen now, etc

Rocky bird took my thought. But even that pushes a kitchen too far from a garage entrance. Perhaps not for you, but for anyone else.

You need an architect asap. Just opinion. but this is about to become the house that cost a bloody fortune to remodel, and is simultaneously, the one that nobody else ever wants. Apologies, but too many room "functions" supported by not enough sq feet to do just that.

A living room isn't "formal" when the view is the breakfast table. Formal dining is a "public" function and makes most sense at the front of the house.

I realize a kosher kitchen can be a challenge, but nothing about the plan is great.

Rockys version is exactly what I would do too. Much more functional

Thanks rockybird. But then there is a bathroom in the dining room? We had thought about this plan but struggled with giving up a room that functions nicely as office/guest with existing bathroom. It is also today our master bedroom which we’d like to in the future shift upstairs but are not doing right now.

The house will not support formal living, formal dining, breakfast area, guest bed/ office, kosher kitchen, dinette, and den on one floor.

Not in any logical way.

Make a large all purpose dining, or give up formal living, or give up bedroom/office labels.

I think we are ok giving up ‘formal’ living.

Jan - As for dining although there is that office/guest preceding it and the dining room extends to the back - it will be viewable from the front entry and thus public?

Thanks rockybird. But then there is a bathroom in the dining room? We had thought about this plan but struggled with giving up a room that functions nicely as office/guest with existing bathroom. It is also today our master bedroom which we’d like to in the future shift upstairs but are not doing right now.

Why do you have two baths with shower/tub right next to one another?

So since you want to keep that room as a bedroom, get rid of the formal dining room, move the kitchen to the dining room as Rockybird suggested and move the dining area to where the breakfast area is now. Much better functionally

In other news, consider adding a small waiter door inside garage that allows you to offload groceries directly into the pantry.

Because the house used to have 3 bedrooms on the first floor. One of those bathrooms will be turned into just a toilet/sink and the remaining space will be given to the guest bathroom to enlarge it.

If we move the dining room all the way over there doesn’t it seem like a hike to service from the range which would be on that exterior wall? Also, where do you envision the breakfast area. We don’t want to rely on an island alone. So if the existing kitchen becomes breakfast then the entirety of ‘kitchen’ becomes quite large…? We do appreciate your insights. Thanks

If we move the dining room all the way over there doesn’t it seem like a hike to service from the range which would be on that exterior wall?

No more than a hike you have now. (see below)

And you can have a small nook with banquet seating for the kids where I show the breakfast table. This also gives you a bigger island and will allow for a more functional layout.

If you can give uup the formal living room then make that your dining room or do as cpartist suggests, which I Ike better

I'm with @cpartist . ......and how labels are meaningless.

What I do question with keeping kosher - is housing the multiples of everything. ...and where it all goes.

I think you need some pantry, more than kids need a small dining spot? Or they do.

I bet you could squeeze a sink and counter in the pantry that Jan designed. Do you think you could do your kosher prep there?

rockybird - its an interesting concept to switch the living and dining. It does seem to give more formality to the living room and bring dining forward. Also gives more space for that living / adult room. I've attached an example below. However, it does seem to create a lot more walking through the dining room vs. it being off to the side.

At this point we are leaning towards doing the best we can in the existing layout. It will be a lot more work and expense to move the kitchen over.

To that end, we've taken some advice and lengthened the island. Reduced seating areas in the kitchen. Moved the fridge/freezer back to the range wall and created two work triangles with dairy and meat.

And Jan - really really apprecite the mockup you put together and the labels especially - family room for grownups. Love it.

That's a much better kitchen plan!

rockybird - we like the concept of swapping the living room and dining room but just curious what you think is the benefit?

Thanks

Also, curious if anyone has thoughts on moving the dining room to the upper far left where the den is? Would situate dining room by nice yard view and also get us a bigger den while still having a casual living area/sitting room off the open kitchen.

Negative is the dining room is somewhat less formal as it is open to the kitchen. However, it gets a moderate boost from having the built in fireplace.

Close it, for sure. There are plenty on ingress/egress points. Plus, the stairs feel more special this way. Also, maybe safer as now you can see anyone approaching the stair landing (i.e., no blind spots).

You can set a pine rustic table with fancy Passover dishes and as many accents as you like - it is once a year, not every week. Shabbat is every Friday @ sundown and a prayer at the meal. I'll be honest. ..........

You are in a home, not well suited to all the labels and functions you desire.

It has a vacuous centered room, with no sense of closure or even charm! The lord gave us french doors for a reason, and four comfy chairs for adults around a cocktail table ? Lovely ! The fact is ,unless you are highly unusual, any room can be both "formal and informal" and it simply depends tidiness, and not running out for the lumpiest sprawl sectional you can jam in a space. It means storage to hide "junque". ....especially the kiddie uglies

Either wrap your head around budget and adjusted thinking or have vacuous spaces fallow most of the time, when what you most need is the appliance and cleanliness, and tradition of a kitchen with "rules" going back 2000 years.

I once asked a client...."Why do you still DO this so hard to do stuff?" Answer? "Because it IS hard to do tradition - a discipline that carries on the faith"

That said? You need an architect and a bigger budget. I'll pray for a good one - Jewish faith: )

I hate to disagree with Jan--I'll just say it comes down to how your family lives. For my family, I would love dt516's latest plan. The traffic flow for serving the dining room is better. The private living room is great--it gives you so much flexibility for entertaining mixed-age groups. Or for just allowing one family member to enjoy some quiet while other family members play Super Mario. A central living room that flows well to kitchen and dining spaces for more casual entertaining. Or for kids to watch TV there while parents work and keep an eye on the content being consumed.

So interesting!

Jan - you are correct 100%. But so is mcarroll16!

It is true, we have this big space at the center of the house which as you aptly put, lacks a sense of closure or charm. However, every time I've toyed with closing that room with french doors, separating headers, etc. it tends to close off the space and shrink the home. I do think the kitchen as currently presented conforms to general kitchen principles with two triangles one for meat and one for dairy. It isn't prefect. But maybe good enough? One designer and one contractor we met both suggested shifting the kitchen over like you and rockybird etc. and it's definitely something we considered.

The existing setup allows a certain amount of flexibility where the rooms outside the kitchen/dinnette/guest are all interchangeable based on needs of the family (i.e. dining room in top right as recently presented and larger living room/play area next to the kitchen today but swapped to formal larger dining room as kids grow up and smaller living den/living adjacent to dinette in the future).

Doors don't make a house smaller. I'm not a feng shui devotee in any way - I just know what makes people feel good.

The old 1999 Mc Mansion concept of fat columns at a foyer with "open" dining and formal living? Always the least used space in every home! Why? Not so much because they were formal, far more because they are literally atop an entry/exit door.

This is the very reason they are at the front, and especially the formal dining. Needing a companion space, the builder puts the seating at front as go with....finally shrinking the sizes of both to the point of uselessness!

People don't actually love wide open spaces in practice - and routinely gravitate to the back of a home which is why the kitchen and family space are at the back. It isn't simply to hide the grunge of daily living.

A sense of closure helps those spaces at the front entry FEEL cozier and less like sitting in a gargantuan foyer . As it feels in your home, on that plan.