What annoys me more is how ungodly slow this internet forum is. I check it in the morning and then a little later and nothing new has been posted. I wish people would post more, it makes my workday go by faster. I find myself reading multiple forums here, things I don't even care about, in just a few minutes I can read everything that's be posted in them in the past 2 years, if someone hasn't posted in it in 6 months it should be pruned from GW. Maybe with less places to post, more posts would occur....like a normal forum, oh and I want to be able to hover over a thread title and see the first sentance of the post, link a pic without html, see who the last poster was, basically just get out of 1995!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Harley, that made me laugh so hard! One thing I like about these forums are their charmingly "old-fashioned"* style. I don't want it to change, personally. It's the only forum that looks this way and I like it.

Patty
*Can you believe we have advanced thus far to have things that are old-fashioned, retro even, on the internet!

Harley, you made me chuckle too, and you've hit the nail on the head as well. I'd like the forum to be a hopping sort of a place (which obviously your workplace isn't :-)) and when we get posters who are basically here handing out assignments, no one is inspired to contribute, and no conversations ensue.

I agree that that there are too many forums on GW. I can't keep up with daily visits to as many as I'd like. I'm not sure if that's what you mean, mind you, as you also refer to old threads, but I think merging a number of forums would help things along. I think that merging Gardening with Stone and LD would be a great start.

Thanks to all who've helped put meat on the bones of my irritation with the forum; words to my thoughts, etc.
Collaway, I don't think it's about being a novice. We were all novices once, and made the trek out. It's about respecting the journey... or something similarly profound. Hmmm, sounds like I need my coffee!

KarinL

karinl That's exactly what I meant regarding merging forums.

The other thing that bothers me is that many people ask questions but fail to realize that a pic is worth 1000 words.

For instance I could post this...

before ...
{{gwi:22844}}
After...
{{gwi:22845}}

And then ask what suggestions you all would have to re-design the area to the right of the driveway do I (extend the yard, plant trees, eliminate the bed all together, plant crepe myrtals in a row) etc.

Or I could do what many do and write a darn book trying to paint a picture and actually end up conveying nothing.

So what would you do if this was your house?

I know not everyone has a digital camera but they SHOULD!

I posted on Comments & Suggestions awhile back that there were too many forums, if anyone wants to see how that went.

I am new to this forum - trying to read some history before posting what is likely to be a nebulous, "What the heck do I do with this space?" kind of post. Forgive me in advance! : )

I have posted to GW for a very long time...8+ years? I know I was here before meeting my DH in 2000. Anyway, I digress. Suffice it to say, I'm not new to GW or posting forums.

I never check the box to have responses sent to me because I know I will come back to read responses and therefore, I do not want them cluttering up my inbox. Especially if the topic takes off like wildire in a different direction. I can easily skim through those looking for worthwhile responses to the original question. And if the offshoots are relevant or interesting, I can opt to read those as well.

I think if you will think it is a waste of your time, or it will not be appreciated, then do not take the time to answer. It isn't worth getting worked up about, because it happens everywhere on the net and it isn't going to end anytime soon. And even if the OP doesn't come back, your response could always help someone else looking for similar information. Like me - I am reviewing the forum a little before I post. Although I am chomping at the bit for ideas, I have to admit! : )

I look forward to the discussions here as I try to formulate a plan for my yard.

And honestly - if I see a new person posting and having emails sent to them - I don't assume, but I figure it is more likely to be a 'post and run.' They don't want to be bothered to come back, they just want answers to magically appear in their inbox. Admittedly, there is a variety of other reasons a person would choose either option, but that is my first impression when it is a brand new poster. We all have different thought processes on it!

Btw, I never ask for email notifications. I get so much email as it is, I can't imagine how clogged up my inbox would get if I got email notifications on every thread I ever posted on! If I'm really interested in a thread, I'll check back - sometimes a little too often, lol. (Ok, on one other forum I get email notifications if I get a private message - I haven't turned it off simply because I rarely get PM's). I probably miss some late replies to threads on forums I don't frequent as often, but I guess that's a risk you run.

And Laag - Ikwym about the posters who make it sound like they are granting us a favor to design their stuff - that does bug me.

Anyhow, I respond to questions that strike a chord with me, and tend to ignore the others. Sometimes I read along until something inspires me to speak up. I guess I am getting tired of telling people to hire an engineer to design their retaining walls, tho!

What kinds of things do people say that make you think they think you are doing them a favor? I'm curious!

I've linked below to a good example of a "drive-by". Insufficient information, no pre-posting homework, and never came back.

I think what was meant was that people post and sound like they are doing us a favor by posting.

I've seen things like:

"OK, people, here's your challenge" followed by what sounded like a demand for multiple free designs.

"I don't like idea 1, idea 2 doesn't work for me. Keep those ideas coming."

"I need landscaping in the front, and landscaping on the side. I've attached 8 pictures. Oh, yes, and a design for the back too."

One of my favorites is where someone posts their landscape or their own plan for a landscape, and then gets mad when people don't think it's perfect, and get argumentative. You either want input, or you don't.

I as a nurse would not expect anyone outside the medical field to know the proper ejection fraction from a echocardiogram, nor would i expect anyone to know how to do a ankle/brachial index or what it is even used for. Even if they did research they may not still even understand, some people just need information brought to them simply to their level so they can understand and then build from there. If patients were curious enough to ask i would expect a very basic question regarding both studies as i dont expect patients without being educated regarding both to understand what they are used for or what they entail. I think it is no different here, don't assume that someone knows to ask the questions because i don't think they always do and therefore you see very basic questions.

I don't think people are in any way trying to be rude, they just don't know. I for one probably have posted some very silly questions, and to some people they are basic in their eyes. I did not even have my zone up at first and then realized duh how is people supposed to help me if i don't put these things...it is a learning experience. I for one truly appreciate any advice anyone has ever give me on here because it has broadened my knowledge, so thank you all for that! In the same token i have had people get extremely rude because my opinion don't match their own and read other posts on down and people are saying the same thing and i don't see the same rudeness (actually only happened maybe twice), for the most part people are very nice here.

I do find it rude for people to post and then never really return and check, but like someone said it probably has helped someone else. I also don't get email notifications because i don't want my email clogged...two days not checking and there is about 15 junk mails...10 for viagra and the other 5 for lengthening enhancement serums... geez!. But i always check back and i do try to give back even if my opinion is not a professional one.

As for the searching part...i have as i am sure others have searched the forum and not found exactly what they were looking for...i have searched under every cotton pickin thing i know to search under and it's not there..then someone will say look under this and wahlaaa. I have done the same thing under google and ask.com. Just frustrating sometimes when the internet dont go where you want it to go...i know in my mind where i want it...why dont it follow?lol

So thanks in advance for all help i have recieved and will recieve in the future, and i am certain the majority feels the same way...you guys are wonderful!

I'm confused, just what kind of "drive by" we be talking about?

Is it "drive by" as in drive up window, service without steping out of your car?

Or is it like a "drive by" shooting, where they take a shot and roar off into the night, never to be seen again?

lol i think quite possibly a little of both.

ymaddox - I don't think anyone expects detailed technical questions from newbies. But, a question like "what should I put here?" without any context whatsoever is unlikely to result in an answer that really helps the questioner. It's also a little annoying when you ask, say, which way the house faces, and get ignored twice in a row. That's not something that requires a whole lot of research, y'know? ;) (I'm guessing that the person I'm referring to simply forgot to answer, but it was still a tiny bit annoying.)

If somebody got to this forum they are connected to the Internet. I can jump over to Google and type in "proper ejection fraction echocardiogram" and see a number of hits that will provide me the basic information. I could then use this information to ask an informed question rather than a one line "do you think I should get an echocardiogram?" type question.

My suggestion would be that if you are going to solicit the forum for ideas, at least share some of YOUR ideas. You have to have some ideas about your landscape otherwise you would not be posting.

- Brent

Yes, good call, Pls. I guess I would agree a little of both!

I went looking for old examples of drive-bys and found this one:
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/design/msg0417020617884.html?1
but not another one that I know I put some thought into with no response. If you go along past pages looking for posts with between one and five responses you get the idea.

However, I also found this thread that was never answered, and I'm not sure why, since the poster did a lot right - maybe too much detail for an OP. I think one part is that the poster answered her own post quite quickly so it must have dropped from the top of the list right away (linked below):
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/design/msg0403145731853.html?1

But she will be getting responses by email!

KarinL

brent i guess for whatever reason i can't always find what i am looking for on the net unless i sometimes spend a great deal of time looking...i looked last night for information regarding tree placement in a yard...for instance different designs of how trees were placed in a front yard. i had a hard time finding things on this and looking at actual designs. I also searched on gw for: fertilizing plants in raised beds and did not find much there. Maybe what i am typing in is not sufficient to find what i want to look for. I can always eventually find something but often may not be what i am looking for...and to be quite honest i often find something else in the search i am interested in and check it out. for instance last night i came upon the better homes and garden website in my search and i was off and running with all those garden designs etc...lol.

brent i can honestly say that i do include my idea's from time to time like i said to try to give back...it is however sometimes intimidating to think that i am adding idea's to a forum that alot of people have forgot more than i will ever know about gardening and design :). So sometimes i hold my idea's back thinking that a professional designer probably has much better idea's. I would be curious to see how many posters here actually are professional designers or at least somehow associated with the profession.

I agree irene about not posting alot of information...i think it is important to include your taste if not your probably not going to be happy. I may like a couple idea's here and there out of someone else's garden and incorporate it in my own...but the majority is still my flare. otherwise i think i would not be happy with it very long and start changing things around. but maybe some people just need that boost maybe they just have no clue what they want, maybe they have looked and nothing popped out at them and turn here for some ideas as well. However it is completely rude to start a thread and never follow up on it or add responses and thank you's for those that took the time and effort to help you.

Bboy, where is that Comments and Suggestions area?

KarinL

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/suggest/

Ymaddox - I think it's actually easier to find technical answers on google (or GW search) than some of the more nebulous "concept" types of things. Because at least the technical terms you are googling tend to lead you to the right sorts of information. But, how on earth is a newbie supposed to know that they should search for "blank slate" to find posts about where to start? ;)

Geez, why did I never know that Suggestions forum existed? Maybe it's time to make some suggestions about this forum.

KarinL

I am not sure if the management of this site knows that the Suggestions forum exists either! If they really wanted to make that forum useful they would put a link to it right at the top of the list of forums instead of burying it in the long alphabetical list.

Anybody know what it takes to get a FAQ page added to a forum these days? In the past there have been some good posts about what to think about when designing a landscape. If the FAQ page just that addressed that and how to post a picture it would be useful.

- Brent

Nobody reads the FAQs either.

Frequently Avoided Questions?

I grew up in a big family. At dinner time there were lots of conversations going on and often a question or a comment went whistling by everyones' ears, never to be heard from again. Or sometimes a question would be answered only to be ignored by the person who asked the question because something else had caught the asker's attention. Conversations overlapped each other and inevitably we returned to the same old topics over and over and rehashed them anew.

Friends or visitors joining us for a meal the first time either sunk or swam, either joined in or simply ate their delicious meal (my mom is a great cook) and kept their mouth shut. For some it was off-putting enough that they never wanted to join our family for dinner again. One little girl (an only child), a friend of my sister's, called her mother right after dinner, crying, and said "Please come get me!" For some it wasn't an option; they became in-laws. Others really liked it and visited often.

Ah, family.
Patty

That's what manners are for.

I have mixed feelings about this thread. I understand the frustrations regarding people who post once never to return or aren't up on netiquette and the ins and outs of using Internet forums. Never hurts to offer a gentle reminder now and again.

But at the same time, along with this thread, there seems to be a lot of "educational" reminders and chastising going on in other posts as well.

The point of this thread seems to be the noble goal of ensuring a lively conversation and give-take discussion goes on here.

However too much "hall monitoring" can have the opposite effect. I admit to being put off contributing to a thread many times by these type of comments. Or have been disappointed to see a thread die when someone abruptly cuts off the discussion by telling the OP to go look up the info elsewhere.

It would be nice for people to be able to discuss garden design at all levels (this is not a forum for professionals only, remember) without being chastised for their questions or lack of insight.

The sad thing about this thread and its gossip value is that it has been the most popular (46 posts) for a while, tell me what that means.

Some of this probably has to do with writing skills and how well we say exactly what we mean. Taint always easy to combine respect, requests and all the relevant facts in a concise message.

Maro, trying

"The sad thing about this thread and its gossip value is that it has been the most popular (46 posts) for a while, tell me what that means."

I think it means we need to talk ABOUT the forum sometimes as well as about design. Maybe that's the solution to the fact that no one ever reads a FAQ - we should keep a current "about the forum" thread going all the time in which we can say things like "Hey Ink, nice comeback to the Design Tips advert!" Or "that was a pretty abrupt request from so-and-so, wasn't it? Is anyone tempted to answer that?" Maybe it needs a chattier subject line than this thread has.

KarinL

kailleanm i think you hit the nail on the head with your post.
karinl this was probably a good subject to talk about i think that alot of people have probably lightened their views on alot of things. I don't think people in general are rude and post things lacking information on purpose. We have this thread now but how many new members sign up daily that will never read this or old members who have not come across it. So maybe it is a good idea to encourage posts to read faq's, and explaining what one might need in a post for members to most effectively help. Or maybe we should go by what we was taught in school "no question is a dumb question". I consider myself a educated woman, but i am very uneducated in alot of area's as i think most people are...if we all knew the same things we would be very boring people to one another. I love the original idea's that posters here have...i have even retried my green thumb at house plants thanks to all the guys and gals at the houseplant forum, i have built a raised vegetable bed thanks to all at the vegetable forum and here, and i plan alot of other design elements in my yard. So don't ever think things you do go unnoticed because there are alot of you that have posted here that there is a little bit of you in each of my projects and because of you being nice enough to share i am motivated to try new things. so thanks again for all your help...i get to plant veggies in my new raised bed as soon as it stops raining and the ground dries...yeah!!!

I enter this particular forum infrequently. I find it one of the more intimidating forums. This forum can be interesting at times, but it can also come across as incredibly 'clubish' too. Some of the frequent posters have a dominating style as well as a strong use of language. I suppose I can understand some of the frustrations by the regulars with 'drive by postings'. We should all reflect on what we are about to post however.

I agree that "hall monitoring" can have the opposite effect. At the same time, that may be the intention.

Anyway, cut to the chase...this particular post by the OP which was directed to a long-time, experienced contributor on some of the other forums seems to have had its intended effect. The contributor to whom this was directed, never posted here again.

I've always been rather wary because of this post. Although, I must say, in some perverse way, I do admire one's writing ability to wield with a velvet hammer.

* Posted by KarinL BC Z8 (My Page) on
Sun, Nov 6, 05 at 11:56

Hey Joe,

You caught the fact that you are in a forum that "honours professionalism" in Landscape Design, but you may have missed, if you failed to peruse the archives of the forum before posting a question, that it also approaches a high level of professionalism in Communication Design.

Your question violated some of the key Principles of Good Communication Design in Electronic Forums Among Voluntary Participants (some of which Mohave Kid explained well in an earlier posting, and which others have illustrated by their reactions).

First, the purpose of questions is to stimulate dialogue, not to obtain an answer. It may be a dialogue only between the questioner and one other person, and it may provide an answer, but the forums are not here for any single questioner, but for everyone. The idea that "a simple question gets a simple answer. A debate is considered rude" may apply when you call a government office, but it does not apply in a voluntary forum in which a question must be interesting to the respondents as well as useful to the Original Poster.

Second, understand "voluntary participation." No one is under any obligation at all to answer a question, much less to answer it in the way the asker wished. Nor can an asker control who will answer by directing a question to "the pros" or "the DIYers." If an answer comes in that is helpful, or that strokes the asker's ego by reflecting back their own ideas, that is a function of luck. The Principles of good Communication Design require the asker, in fact, to be equally grateful for all answers, and to be particularly open to those that surprise or oppose their initial views. Being critical or denigrating of the answers they don't like is not consistent with the Principles, although they can counterpoint responses within the boundaries of polite discussion.

Third, in asking a question, an Original Poster asks others to expose themselves in some measure; to pony up their expertise, their creativity, or the quality of their research, more or less for global evaluation. Therefore, it is incumbent on any questioner to expose themselves in some way first. A question that does not expose the asker's needs does not create a safe place in which respondents can expose their capacity to answer. Conversely, of course, a question that exposes too many needs has its own pitfalls; posing a question is a more complicated endeavor than it might appear.

Fourth, once the question is posed, the Original Poster has no further automatic leadership role in the dialogue. Once the question is out there, everyone has equal status. There is an ongoing responsibility for the OP, however, to clarify the question if asked to do so (and to do so politely!), and an obligation to post some indications of ongoing attention to the debate, and of gratitude for the interest generated - no matter how well s/he likes the responses. Taken to the most professional level, the OP can act as host/ess and moderator for the debate, but only a few participants in all of GardenWeb and indeed in all of cyberspace have the capacity to do this well.

There are many other Principles of Good Communication Design that apply to respondents, but I've focussed here on the issues around the posing of questions.

When carefully applied, the Principles of Good Communication Design make discussions more productive for everyone, keeping the forums lively and crowded with open and enquiring minds, and thus more likely to be satisfying for those who post questions.

-Ron-

Just a microcosm of things in general. Do everything like you were shopping, as that is how everything is done (if you are not making money you are spending it). Come, get what you want as quickly and easily as possible, then take off - without making a contribution yourself. Or figure your visit is your contribution, like if you had bought something.

That's also why the "service" here may not be valued as much and approached with as much care and attention as if it was being paid for: it's free.

So, in a way everyone is rude, actually. We're all looking out for number one. Those that do give answers frequently become bored or irritated because they are not getting something that they themselves have come here to acquire, just like the posters who want instant complete answers when they arrive and don't stick around whether they get those answers or not.

In his introduction to Integral Medicine, Ken Wilbur writes, "So an integral approach does not start by asking, for example, "Which of those methodologies are right and which are wrong?," but instead asks, "What kind of a universe is it that allows all of those practices to arise in the first place?"

The relevance to the discussion at hand is that, instead of asking what is the "proper" etiquette that needs to be observed in this forum, perhaps we should be asking what kind of a forum have we created in which "drive by" postings are problematic. Other forums do not have these concerns why here?

Perhaps this question could be better answered by people who are regulars and better know the lay of the land. As someone who comes here infrequently, I can only offer some limited ideas for consideration. I became aware of this forum when we were building our house a couple of years ago. I spent most of time my time then in the Building A House and Kitchen forums. The first time I came here was not to get advice but because I was curious to learn why this forum had such a negative reputation. In fact, it got to the point where someone created a thread in the Kitchen forum featuring comments by mich_in_zonal_denial and leadbelly as an examples of how rude people can be on Gardenweb. Therefore, the irony of this thread is not lost on me.

Karinl wrote, "I think it means we need to talk ABOUT the forum sometimes as well as about design." This actually happened on the Building A House forum. In fact, many of the people on that forum became quite close and there really was a sense of community there. Predictably, these members wished to discuss things other than building a house and they also developed something of a sense of ownership about the forum. Long story short, the result was many of these members were banned, back when Spike owned this website. This did not deter them. They simply created their own website and invited others to join them on the "dark side." They discuss whatever they please as well as offer support about house building. There are no discussions about "drive by" postings. Inappropriate behavior is addressed directly; people who are rude are simply ignored and wither away.

There is also no discussion of "drive by" postings on the Kitchen forum. Perhaps this is because the people there, as they will happily tell you, are TKO (totally kitchen obsessed). Information is shared briskly and freely. Postings that are vague or unattended simply disappear under the avalanche of activity.

I fully agree that many of the points Karinl makes are appropriate ones, which will be helpful to anyone coming here. What is more troublesome is the underlying tone which, not to put too fine a point on it, appears to come from scarcity. There is not enough time, there is not enough energy there is not enough to go around. Therefore, post properly and check all the little boxes so that your pitiful post will rise to the top and perhaps be graced with an audience by the elite. In contrast, the Kitchen forum is a study in abundance. I submit that there are no discussions about "drive by" postings there because the people there are too busy enjoying what they are doing. The dynamic is shaped by enthusiasm, not time pressure.

Frankly, if a person is feeling overwhelmed and in need of allocating their time, maybe they need to be spending time in a place that actually nourishes them. Internet forums are similar to the fields of medicine and psychotherapy in that you can easily be sucked dry if you do not establish healthy boundaries and a balanced lifestyle. People are being rude, self-serving, adolescent? And this comes as a surprise? Rather than engage in the thankless, Sisyphean task of trying to regulate human nature, perhaps it would work better to take a page out of Joseph Campbells playbook: follow your bliss. Even if that means it doesnt lead here.

Hi Swanoir-- I was curious about your happy Kitchen forum, so I went to take a look. It seems they have had the same concerns on occasion:

"Has forum etiquette vanished...
Posted by claire_de_luna (My Page) on Fri, May 12, 06 at 17:12

...or is it just me? Maybe I'm just burned out, but I don't feel inclined to ''help out'' much any more. It seems like there are a lot of people asking questions that aren't really present, or don't really care when others make an effort to respond.
I know the forum has turned over many times, but it seems a different place than it used to be. Do you think the entire tone of the Kitchens forum has changed?"

130 replies

More recently:

"Why would an Original Poster not acknowledge responses?
Posted by minikit (My Page) on Tue, Jan 30, 07 at 17:28

Two weeks ago I responded to a Kitchen Forum post that was off-topic, and (with my dearth of knowledge about kitchens) it was the rare occasion when, with a google search, I could offer an answer. The OP's question was time-sensitive, and perhaps that's why mine was the only response. In any case I never found out if I'd given her what she was looking for.
I don't expect effusive expressions of gratitude, though I do often see them--and even offer them! A simple "ok, thanks" would do. Her non-response stood out because I rarely encounter it on this, the most congenial of forums.

Curious if she 1) was frantically busy or 2) had dropped dead after posting, I just did a search. Nine of her threads elicited responses, and in all but one she disappeared after her initial request.

Fortunately, most folks seem to recognize that we're a community of volunteers and that busyness doesn't outrank courtesy.

Anyone else experience this lately?"

61 responses, including a reference to "hit and run" posts.

This situation occurs in all forums unless they are devoid of traffic.
Maybe we should all just lower our expectations a couple of notches and move on.

I enjoy all the salt, pepper and vinegar on forums, along with the plain vanilla and the spoonful of honey. Keep talking, folks, it's all good.

I for one have posted a question, and come back often to read the forum (not only my question but to read the other great ones which may be something that helps me as well) I may lurk as I don't always feel qualified to give advice for others...but I certainly am participating by reading and hopefully learning from you guys.

I am copied on the emails as well but still tend to visit here daily...in several forums. I guess I never thought my replying to a reply would do anything but muddy but from now on I will reply to those kind enough to take time to respond from now on. Thank you for pointing this out.

You guys are appreciated. Don't feel you aren't. Its just that I don't feel qualified to add anything of value at this point.

Nicely put, Swanoir. In the end you have expanded very nicely on the question that the regulars here face: exit, voice, or loyalty?

Exit has been chosen by many, among them Mich in zonal denial and, to some extent, the other person renowned for rudeness to whom I believe you were referring, IronBelly (glad I'm not the only one with an unreliable memory, by the way :-)). It's interesting to contemplate whether the posting was of similar quality in the days when their reputation held sway.

I started a thread rather than exit because I've seen that it doesn't improve anything when people leave, in fact it dumps the burden of the problem onto the remaining people. I also know that if I'm frustrated, chances are that others are too. In fact, I know they are because this kind of thread is a regular occurrence around here (see below). And yes, I get something here too that I don't want to leave behind - a chance to participate in conversations, shared learning, problem-solving. It's like food for my brain. I guess the conflict is that most regulars are here for the conversation, while many posters are here for Q&A. But out of that conflict can come mutual gratification, and it's a fair exchange when it works. They need only to hold up their end of a conversation in order to get their A.

Nice research work, Catkim. I do know that other forums experience the same problems, not just on GW but all over the web. I think they are exacerbated to some extent on GW because these forums are, to all intents and purposes, unmoderated.

I enjoy the references to hall monitoring, and recognize that I have tendencies in that direction (nice find, Ron (Fouquieria)). But I'm also always the person out of a hundred who stops to help a lost dog. (At least I was until I moved into a neighbourhood where dog owners don't scoop, don't leash, and don't tie their dogs outside stores where they get into my kids' faces). That's actually not a bad metaphor for what's going on here...

Here is an old thread started by Laag (Is it gone?):
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/design/msg0406451220912.html

One from INk:
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/design/msg0119345631264.html

And one the year before, started by Frankie, who is also scarce as hens' teeth here nowadays:
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/design/msg081224567618.html

Here is another one I started last year to see how others were feeling about something else that was bugging me (newbie thread):
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/design/msg051915273648.html

And here is the thread that really sort of set me off this time around.
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/design/msg0316314415605.html

Maybe we are wishing for a hall monitor... but I keep thinking that we must be grown up enough to handle this for ourselves.

KarinL

Before I settled on GardenWeb I'd looked at some unmoderated gardening forums. Believe me, this site is heavily moderated.

As I scan through these posts one image keeps poping up in my head, ah, here it is.....

{{gwi:22846}}

As for moderation - I'm a relative newbie to GW, but have participated in a wide gamut of other online groups. They have ranged from completely unmoderated (self-moderated) Usenet Groups, to a heavily moderated forum, and a few in between. I haven't seen any active moderating here, unless I'm missing something. Are there posts disappearing or getting edited without me knowing? I guess I haven't seen outright obscenity like I have in other places, nor the totally off-topic spam, etc. But, I would liken this to the self-moderating that goes on in non-moderated Usenet groups, where the active posters tend to discuss expectations and preferences. Probably the biggest difference is that my other forums are mostly parenting forums, so it is a completely different type of questions being asked. Otoh, we also get a lot of questions where we end up having to quiz the original poster in order to give a useful answer. And sometimes they give useful information - sometimes, not so much.

Not sure if this is helping any - but these same issues are all over the web...

Yes there is moderation here. Post dissapear, threads disappear and you get nasty emails from them informing you that your actions were rude or what not.

I can recall starting a thread a few years ago titled something like "Spring Fever?" that asked about the flood of questions that the forum was getting. I suppose that was spring of 2005, since I registered in 2004. I have noticed the same type of pattern each following spring. I suspect that many of the professionals are swamped with work this time of year and have less time to reply but lots of people are gearing up their spring projects and drop in to ask questions. As an amateur I get more excited about gardening this time of year so I drop into the forum more often...sometimes too often.

I doubt that Karin's post had much to do with gardenguru1950's departure from the Landscape Design forum.

- Brent

Harleysilo - I guess I've just been blissfully oblivious to the edited/deleted stuff! On other groups, it often is pretty obvious, because the deleted posts/threads end up getting discussed ad nausem even after they have disappeared. Maybe this happens here and I just haven't noticed yet?

Bboy, I guess you're right, and you would know, wouldn't you? (For those ignorant of the story, Bboy has felt the sting). But it is all done behind the scenes by an invisible hand. I guess I'm thinking more of a situation where the moderater has a personality and is a visible (audible?) presence.

And I am just thinking about what Laag wrote and about his old thread decrying "help me" posts. I guess one defense against feeling milked without making new posters feel unwelcome is to consistently draw out the principles and methods as they apply in the situations presented. I have learned from this current discussion that one need not feel obligated beyond what one enjoys doing, however; an insight I value.

KarinL

Repetition is Art. Many things have to be done over and over just to maintain the status quo, let alone build something better.

>I guess I haven't seen outright obscenity like I have in other places, nor the totally off-topic spam, etc.That's what I was talking about. We'd have all that rubbish here if there wasn't constant monitoring and tinkering.

What stumps me is the notion that anyone feels they are somehow obligated to respond. If posts have become a journey from tedium to monotony, take a breather.

The quickest way to insure the forum stays pure in it's intent to discuss the "technical and aesthetic issues" would be to offer up a continuous supply of think pieces. The core contributors can debate in the abstract and compliment eachother on their insightfulness. This would keep the creative juices flowing for the professionals and be a less obvious way (as opposed to being outright dismissive) of excluding those who think design begins and ends with a shovel and a flat of plants.

I like this forum, most times for no other reason than to lurk and learn. But there are many interesting forums here - not too many as has been suggested; just too many that folks fail to avail themselves of. The perennials, annuals, cottage gardeners, composters et al never tire of sharing their passions in one post after another so how can it be a disservice to recommend a poster check out other forums? Yea verily, the thread is stopped dead here.... but it wasn't going to lead to any meaningful discussion anyway, was it?

Being involved with gardens or gardening is what brought us to this site. For anyone who felt bored or too busy or under appreciated and picked up his/her keyboard and left, that's a choice. Anyone who remains can give something or give nothing. That's a choice too.

I don't post as much as I used to, but often bypass a thread if it doesn't interest me, or if I'm pretty sure the OP is not going to like what I think of their project.

I do, however, sometimes feel obligated to post if I see a poster getting a lot of responses that are giving them "bad advice", taking into account that the quality of a design is subjective up to a point. When neither the poster nor the responder have a clue, it makes me cringe. Think of all of the lurkers who may be reading threads where posters are congratulating each other on really ugly landscaping.

I feel that if someone doesn't step up and try to steer the OP in the right direction, the quality of the forum will be affected. If this was a technical forum, like computers or cars or something, no one would be offended if one of the pros or more experienced members corrected someone and kept them from losing their hard drive or blowing up their engine. No one would be offended if asked to supply the make/model and year of their car, or which OS their computer uses.

The problem is that bringing someone up to speed on landscape design is not nearly as easy as explaining how to change your oil or water pump or clean up a hard drive. This is why it is so important for the poster to do some homework and at least learn which questions they need to ask. And why I often direct them to the newbie forum or suggest they get some books from the library and start over.

Don't forget that you don't have to shoulder all of the people's burden on your shoulders.... just chill out and let others handle the responsibilities of enforcing good design and sustainability.

We are all in this together - you and me.

I happen to enjoy reading all of these questions, because a unique perspective often comes out of the mouth of babes. Open up to the streaming conscious and take it all in.

I average maybe about 4 posts a month here. If everybody followed my lead this forum would have died of inactivity years ago.

I only open about 20% of the threads. For me this forum serves the same function as a crossword puzzle would for some people. Often I don't even feel a compulsion to share my thoughts.

Why? Because most looking for help here are seeking the right plant material. I want to yell STOP!, go back to the beginning.

A few months ago 'inkognito' was talking of some well known LAs. One of them was Garrett Eckbo. In an interview for Sunset mag (see link below) he gave some good advice for homeowners on where and how to start.

It doesn't bother me that people come here without a clue. We could send them to Eckbo and then walk them through the design process. But they are't going to do it. What they are going to do is buy plants and put them in this weekend. I can't help these people and I'm not going to try.

bboy & KarinL - I guess it is a different type of moderating than I'm used to, since this is the only "corporate" forum I frequent (for lack of a better term coming to mind). The other forum I frequent with highly active moderating is all done by volunteers within the posting community. And so, while part of it is to get rid of spam, a lot of it is also for civility, and gentle guidance to try and keep the site welcoming to newbies that we are trying to help.

And pls - thanks for the link! That was a very informative and helpful article.