I was getting ready to ask a similar question, So I will comment on this and maybe both of us can get an answer. My peppers and toms have been up for about 8 weeks now and still not very big. I moved them outside about 7 days after germination. Now here we are a week away from setting out, but not real big. Should I bring them inside under lights and see how that does? The whether here for the next 5 days is goiing to be highs of 50's and chance of frost next two days. I'm thinking like you, They need a little warmer whether to grow quicker.

I am interested in the answer everyone gets, because mine are growing real slow as well. I started them in sterile seed mix, moved them to the cold frame when about 1" high (which took about 8 weeks to get there) I have even given them a fertilizer feeding at half strength, thinking that was the problem...nada....no growth. I am planting them out today and I am prepared to cloche them if needed....but geesh...I may never start peppers from seed again. Which would be a shame...

I have a large dog cage I could wrap in plastic and sit the plants inside that if anyone thinks that would help. The set out date on peppers for my area is May 15- June 10. So I still have time. I also have flourescents I could use. I dont care about the toms. Its my peppers I want.

I think you answered your question with these;

"They were too cold to grow properly? (the cold-liking kale looks great, so I think this might be the problem?)
- transplanted to too small of containers? (some are 4 square inches, many are smaller, but even 4 square inch pot plants are not nearly as big as last year)
- not enough fertilization? (maybe our worm compost isn't as awesome as we think it is, or we used it wrong)"

@digdirt - A-ha! I bet you are right. we probably did overwater. and probably wasn't a problem last year because we had them in such a warm room. Many thanks for the reply.

So what's the verdict? will they recover if we transplant them? (and cut down on the watering) or are they too little to survive? and I need to do some research into their awful hardening-off burns...

Dave, So if I cut the water back would you recommend to leave them out on my deck or bring them in under flourescent lights for the next two weeks? The seedlings I had under fluorescents for about two weeks before setting outside are much more progressed than the others I set outside imediently. Next week weather is overcast high 60's everyday with rain.

I'm not convinced there's a problem with your seed sprouting setup or approach to be honest. Your seeds sprouted and now you have small seedlings. When the outside overnight temps stay in the 50's and above it's time to plant warm season crops outside. They will grow quickly provided sun, nutrient and water requirements are met.

I would chalk up the fried seedlings as a learning experience and replace them with nursery plants if they are too far gone. Hope that helps!

So what's the verdict? will they recover if we transplant them? (and cut down on the watering) or are they too little to survive? and I need to do some research into their awful hardening-off burns...

Can't say for sure without seeing the plants. Don't know how badly they were sun burned and that may do them in. But if the sun burn isn't too bad then over-watered plants will usually recover once transplanted to a dryer mix in a container or into the ground. 6" tomato seedlings are fine to plant in the garden, an ideal size in fact. But hardened off well first.

Unlike tomatoes, peppers are slow growers - that's why they are usually started 2-3 weeks prior to starting tomatoes. And peppers and eggplants aren't usually planted out until at least 2 weeks after tomatoes - or more - as they need much warmer soil. So I'd transplant those into larger cups/containers with some dry mix, cut back on the watering, and keep them inside for now.

Dave, So if I cut the water back would you recommend to leave them out on my deck or bring them in under flourescent lights for the next two weeks?

I'd bring them in and I'd transplant them too if possible into new containers.

The problems with small containers that have been over-watered is that the mix has become compacted in the process. Transplanting solves that part of the problem and helps them dry out faster.

Dave

Dave thank you that's very helpful.

It seems most people have their tomatoes out already here (we started them late though, plus we've had an unusually cold Spring, plus we are building a new bed to house the tomatoes) so I think it might be ok to put peppers and eggplants out, though since they are small maybe we'll give them a couple more weeks.

Point noted about starting them earlier than tomatoes next year!

I did take a pic of the burned little babies but our internets are so slow out here in no-high-speed-unless-you-get-satellite land that I haven't uploaded them.

I'm seeing some new little leaves opening so I think they might be ok. And the tomatoes look the worst, we might lose a couple, the peppers actually look good (tho small) and the eggplant looks like it will recover.

again, huge thank you!

and best wishes to my fellow small-seedling sufferers!

Dave, I've seen you respond to several posts with similar cautionary tales about over-watering. I'm embarassed to share this in this thread (because I don't want to be rude), but my seedlings are in general doing fantasic, so I guess I'm not over-watering enough to harm them.

But I do wonder about watering, because you sound much more knowledgeable about it than me. What are some rules of thumb?

I've been watering the smaller containers I have about twice a week - but checking soil moisture by touching the top to make sure it needs it. Plants that seem to like more moisture get a little more water at that time - I keep an eye on them to judge. Larger containers (tomatoes are in half gallon milk cartons now) get watered based on the plant - if they droop, they get water. It's about twice a week, it seems. I was bottom-watering them at first, but I have so many now I just don't have time.

I read something in another thread - might have been you posting - that said something about sticking your finger in to the 2nd knuckle to check moistness. I've been doing that with the tomatoes, too, without thinking about it. But that can't be the right approach for everything, can it? I don't have room for everything to be in pots that large - the basil certainly isn't.

Planting time is still a couple weeks off here in frigid New Hampshire. Temp's supposed to be 28 tonight - ugh! I want to be hardening off, but it's been super-windy. I put them out for an hour a few days ago, and they're still recovering.

"Rule of thumb, or finger" is a good way to put it. :) And yes, sticking your finger down into the soil will work for most any seedling regardless of the container size it's in. If your finger won't fit try a pipe cleaner or a Q-tip, pop sickle stick or even a stiff slip of paper - anything that will show you dampness at the level. Larger containers with more soil will retain water longer than small containers so will need less frequent watering.

But touching, or going by, the soil surface isn't a good test as the surface can be quite dry while the soil an inch down is still quite moist.

The basic problem with water is that too many see it as the most important requirement for seedlings and it isn't. Oxygen for root development and root expansion is. And soil kept consistently wet compacts and the O2 is forced out of the soil so none is available for the roots. They rot and die.

Plus frequent shallow watering only encourages shallow rooting. The purpose of the roots is to have to go looking for moisture and air, to grow downward in that search, to expand and send out new growth to aid in the search. Over-watering defeats that.

Bottom watering is best. It lets the soil only absorb what it needs and no more. But I know that isn't always feasible. So when top watering do it slowly and quit just as soon as some drains out the bottom of the container. Then don't water again until the soil down at the mid-root level is dry to the touch.

Seedlings will tolerate and adapt to too little water but they can't tolerate too much water.

Hope this helps.

Dave

You are in the Sierra foothills? I am down in the SF bay area, and the weather hasn't been consistently or tremendously warm yet. We've had some warm days to be sure, but they have been sporadic and the nighttime temps have been in and out of the low 50s down here. Plus we have had the cold rains once a week, which is a definite change from last spring.

I know it's not much warmer up there, so if your plants are outdoors up there in the foothills, I'm sure the cooler weather is simply slowing growth down in comparison to last year.

By the way, I also misjudged watering with this crazy weather and ended up over watering. It stunted all my herbs and many of my peppers. I salvaged what I could and re-seeded.

I'm in the sierra foothills also, the weather has been unusually cool for this time of year. I planted out 4 squash seedlings, and 2 pumpkins about2 weeks ago. The squash is doing ok, but I think I am going to re-plant the pumpkins (good thing I planted extras) I'm also thinking I will be planting some of my warm weather seedlings out this saturday but I still have my peas where my corn will be planted. The peas are doing so well I hate to pull them up. The weather is alot different than last year.

Dave - Thanks for the info about watering. It's nice to know I was doing something right, even if I didn't know it. The info about O2 makes tons of sense. I knew about wanting roots to be extensive - that's why I put my toms in milk cartons - but it's always good to be reminded.

Thanks, Tricia

I am having this issue as well. Most of my seedlings are very small, despite being 6-8 weeks old. Most germinated well, most have their second set of true leaves, my jalapenos don't, but most everything else does. None of the plants are spindly, but I did repot those that were ready with 2 sets of true leaves and set them deeper in the soil. I have begun hardening off. I am only misting the soil now, about every other day, once I bring them out from being outside (from about 10-3 today). None of the leaves are blanching so far, yay, but they just dont seem to be taking off. I am in zone 5B, Michigan.

What potting mix and what have you fed them? What source of nutrients do they have?

And misting is normally only used for germination of seeds, not on plants as it doesn't get the water where it is needed - the roots - encourages shallow rooting of the plants and can lead to fungus and bacteria diseases on the leaves.

Dave

Digdirt2 ... originally it was a non soil starting mix. Now that I have transplanted them they are in a soil and compost mix. I fertilized when they first came up and once they got their true leaves, but that was almost 2 weeks ago for most of them. I am misting the soil only, not the plants themselves, as I was reading that during the hardening off period they need to acclimate not only to sun and wind, but less water. I am attaching some pictures.

Did you make drainage holes in those cups? I used organic potting soil which is supposed to contain a lot of nutrients for growing plants. I fertilize weekly with fish emulsion mix but only about 1 tsp per gallon of water. A friend said his peppers weren't growing but he wasn't using a liquid fertilizer. Said they started growing when he started using compost tea.

I never use any soil based mix in containers and it certainly isn't recommended in such small containers. Soil-less mixes only. You'll find numerous discussions here about the problems with soil and compost in containers. Compacts and drains poorly, retains too much water for such small seedlings and causes root rot. Plus it provides no nutrients.

The pale and yellowing color of them indicates both over-watering and lack of nutrients, especially nitrogen and both problems are tied to the fill in your containers. The cotyledons should still be robust and green but they clearly are not which tells you the plants are too wet and hungry. Plus you are using clear cups and roots are negative phototropic (hate light) and there is far too much soil for many of the smallest seedlings. It is sort of like putting a baby in the deep end of the big pool instead of the kiddie pool. :-) They struggle to keep from drowning.

Ideally for best odds of survival they would all be transplanted out of that soil into an actual growing mix in amounts proportionate to their size and fed. It just depends on how much work you want to do and how long before they can go outside.

Before next year you might want to do some reading over on the Growing from Seed forum here - a good set of FAQs there on all the basics.

Dave

Thank you digdirt2! I am new to growing in this region and especially starting seeds indoors. I moved to zone 5B from a place I could plant in ground year round without much issue, so every season so far is a learning experience and disappointing crop. It sounds like I should fertilize and then get these planted out as quickly as possible if they have any hope. Am I understanding that correctly?

Defrost49, yes I did put drainage holes in the bottom of the cups. I haven't fertilized at all in the last couple of weeks, perhaps that is part of the problem. We just started composting this year and have had a little trouble getting our compost really started, so no compost tea yet. I will try fertilizing, hopefully that will be the jump they need.

I swear by fish emulsion (or seaweed) and use it whenever I transplant and if things look a little unhappy. But I hate to say it but I think your seedlings are too small for good production this year. I'm at the cold end of zone 5 in NH and even the seeds started in early April during a gardening workshop are just about the right size to go outside although a bit small. Professionally grown are a couple of inches taller. If you are counting on some tomatoes and pepper, I would but some started plants but keep on with your seedlings which might be doing fine towards the end of the season.