I checked out the website. I think that's just one grower changing their stock for whatever reason. The big boxes like HD carry Proven Winners.

May Night salvia was and is on of the best. It's their loss not to continue growing it.

I agree bean_counter_z4! But discontinuing Jacob Cline & Marshalls Delight monardas?!?! And no replacements even suggested!?!? Those are staples in a hummer garden; I guess people are discouraged about their supposed invasiveness. I wouldn't be without them, and if for some reason they died off, I'd run out to buy more!
Definitely their loss...

May Night was in full force in every nursery I was at this year.

One nursery I went to had at least 20 separate pots of Agastache "Tutti Frutti" (which I passed on since it hasn't overwintered for me the two times I attempted it.)

These plants aren't being retired. My guess is most of these varieties are sold by many different commercial growers and Proven Winners sees no reason to grow something that a retail nursery can easily buy (probably cheaper) from somewhere else.

I am surprised about the Salvia May Night and the Monardas too. May Night has lovely blooms in late spring and it is a vigorous grower. The only drawback might be its funny smell.

Monarda does spread but it is VERY easy to pull up. It usually looks ratty and mildewy by late summer but that doesn't bother me. Every plant has its season and gardens are constantly in transtiton. It is beautiful when in full bloom and unbeatable as a hummer plant! The bees, butterflies, and hummingbird moths like it too.

Nonetheless, the majority of perennial cultivars do drop off growers' lists, to be replaced by others. Americans have a thing with newness, tho often, it is true, improvements are made.

I have many garden books from 1900-1940. Very, very few of those perennial cultivars are still available. It makes it very hard for people seeking Grandma's favorite or trying to do a historically correct garden.

Moral: If you absolutely love it, make sure you have spares.

Guys don't be blind. The website is not saying that they decided not to sell them, it says they are discontinued. Take our Echinacea "Sunset" for example - we have now found the reason and confirmed with the hybridizer. Or take the Meadowbrite Echinacea series; it is well known those had problems in the field and they appear on this list as discontinued. Furthermore, if, as you suggest these are just items Proven Winners has decided to stop carrying, why would they list substitues for some and not for others?
The whole lesson to be learned here is that there are some very common popoular perennails that have issues that caused them to be discontinued. I'd bet that some of the nurseries don't even know about the discontinuation since the hybridizers don't send out press releases on the topic. The nurseries will just know that the plant is not available next season when they go to re-order. If you want to be naive, be my guest - perhaps you should contact the source directly on one of the items you can't believe is being discontinued, as I did with "Sunset" Echinacea. If you want to ignore this list that's your decision, but I try to learn from my mistakes. I will no longer assume just because a perennial is widely sold, it doens't have problems.

BTW, another commone one I missed on my initial list is Lecanthemum "Becky."

The BIG grower in my area is Hampshire Farms. They also supply HD and other big retailers in the Chicago/Milwaukee area. Most of those plants that Proven Winners decided not to grow are still on Hampshire's list. So, they're only discontinued by one grower. And PW is still crazy to stop growing May Night 1997 perennial of the year. Whatever, you can be sure the issue is about money and not the performance of any of those plants.

There are only so many plants a grower can grow. Chances are huge that some seed company came and sold someone at Proven Winners a bill of goods about another salvia being better than May Night....and they bought the story and the seeds....and they may be right.
I still mourn that I can't buy a certain tall ageratum any more nor an old pink petunia called "Linda".
But it you are going to compete in anything, you have to have something new and different....unless you are a certain mail order house in Vermont!
Linda C

More research uncovered that Heuchera "Amber Waves" was discontinuted due to weak growth. See the link below for confirmation of that. I'm betting that the items on that initials list all had some issues with the plant quality; either they were weak growers, don't overwinter well, or don't propogate well as in the case of the "Sunset" Echinacea. I don't doubt that people may have versions of these plants without these problems, but I would stay away from buying and planting anything on that list. Hopefully none of the items have worse issues like been prone to catching a dangerous disease that could impact other plants in your garden.

"Amber Waves" is all over the place in my area - no shortage of that one this year, that's for sure.

I do agree with the point made re: plants being discontinued because of problems. So many new cultivars are introduced, only to fall out of favor because word eventually gets around that they are not stellar performers (now, why this hasn't happened to Sunny Border Blue veronica yet is a mystery to me, but that's a whole other thread...).

I don't often buy cultivars that are only a year or two old for that reason - time and time again I've been disappointed in the performance. I personally seem to have better luck with the old tried and true cultivars, though admittedly sometimes I do buy something newer because it is what I need at that moment (i.e. the plant fits my bill perfectly), but the bulk of my gardens is composed of the old ironhorses. :)

OK, OK, OK...I work in the industry, I know PVG (Pleasant View Gardens), and the majority of the items on their list are discontinued only by PVG - they are NOT off the market, many of the are NOT exclusive to Proven Winners, and most will still be readily available from many other sources. Mwieder - you are hitting websites of individual growers - there in NO WAY that Salvia May Night (we call it May-Not because it is a bi**h to propagate) has been dropped by every grower - WE still grow it, and the Ajugas! People get twisted ideas about things they know relatively little about. Everybody take a deep breath....

You guys are missing the point. The fact that many sellers still sell something is not a proof it doesn't have issues. That's exactly what we learned today about Echinacea "Sunset!" Do you know how many places are still selling it? The best thing to do, if you don't want to avois things on the list I posted, is contact the hybridizer yourself and ask. That's what I did with the Echinacea. Otherwise it's all a bunch of guesswork. All I'm suggesting is that I've seen enough items on that list pulled for vegetative reasons that I wouldn't buy anything else on that list without verifying with the hybridizer first. Asking your local nursery would do no good in most cases.

I would agree that some of those plants on that list have been replaced by better cultivars and some displayed problems (such as Sunset) once they were out in the field, so to speak. But others, such as May Night, I suspect is the same as new cars. No one really needs a brand new car every year, but the car industry hopes that by touting the latest and greatest, you'll ditch last year's model and buy new. After all, if we all just keep propagating the plants we have, it doesn't do the nursery business much good.

Ok, I'm really confused here...

What is the point of the original post? I don't think anyone is arguing that plants are sometimes pulled from the market due to problems. Those problems (whatever they may be) sometimes show themselves quickly, other times take years to show themselves.

So....if a plant is known to have "problems" what is the point of checking the list or calling the grower - chances are I wouldn't want it anyway if if I've heard there an issue with it, so I really wouldn't care if it is going to stop being produced.

Maybe my brain is just fried today or something, but I really don't see the point the original poster is trying to get across....

mxk3 - many people here (bean_counter, tracey, a2zmom and goblugal) are suggesting that the list I posted were not pulled for "problems" but simply because the seller decided to stop selling them (someone hypothesized they were commonly available in local garden centers and there was no more money to be made there so they pulled them). I think you and I read the list the same way, but others are in denial that so many well known plants could have problems. My follow up was encouraging those that are in denial to at least get more information from the hybridizer before ignoring the list and buying those varieites anyway.

I do believe the other posters are also correct - there's lots of money in the "latest and greatest" and I do agree that older cultivars are sometimes pulled to make room for the new stuff.

I agree with both aspects of the issue. I don't think anyone is in "denial" (that actually is a little insulting, to be honest), just sharing their point of view. :)

"there's lots of money in the "latest and greatest" and I do agree that older cultivars are sometimes pulled to make room for the new stuff."
I certainly agree - I'm just not sure those items are on the initial list I posted.

Listen to goblugal, I'm a commercial grower too and she is entirely correct in what she says. Just because a variety doesn't carry a proven winners tag, doesn't mean it won't be grown without.

It's not always about what the consumer wants in the way of new and different.....it's also about patent expirations. LOL. When a plant no longer has proprietary rights and can get the patent owner five or ten cents for every time it's grown all over the world, you bet that particular company will stop offering it and cough up a "substitute". Still doesn't mean it won't be available, only that you won't be able to find it under that particular breeders line. Anybody, anywhere is legally able to propagate it and consumers buy the propaganda that it's no longer grown.

Wait a minute... what is the problem with Echinacea 'Sunset'?

Speaking from personal experience, "May Night" is a fantastic plant - easy to grow, mine is already in its third flush of bloom and it keeps on going until frost. Agastache "Tutti Frutti" is hard to overwinter in zone 6, not because of the cultivar but because the Agastache barberri species is marginally hardy up here. And Monarda "Jacob Cline" is one of the most mildew resistant cultivars out there, so I doubt the plant is being discontinued for poor performance.

There are, of course, plenty of plants that are hyped as the next big thing which turn out to be duds. Coreopsis "Limerock Ruby" springs to mind.

Regarding Echinacea 'Sunset,' there is another thread about how people do not like the large proportion of quill (tubular) petals it tends to have. Mine has about half and half quills and regular ray flowers (mixed on the blooms), I actually like it but can see how others might be expecting the more typical coneflower petal form.

- Steve

Regarding Echinacea 'Sunset' -- mine (I've had two for 2 years now) aren't merely quilled. I have a quilled chrysanthemum that I LOVE. But 'Sunset' is so tightly quilled there's no color showing, and there are only about 15 petals at most per bloom -- all rolled. To be honest, you can't even tell there are flowers there unless you're within 3 feet of it. On one of the plants there are even fewer petals and some have none at all. I'm striving to find the charm in this but am pulling a brain muscle trying. I've posted in the other thread ("Echinacea Sunset - Wierd Petals?) responding to the OP about her 'Sunset', which is doing the same thing.

From what I understand now, it is a problem with the propagation of the plants. Not all suffer from it. But it sounds like there are quite a few, based on this forum. Plant Delights is offering refunds. Check out the other thread.

Regards,
- Becky

I don't doubt some of those plants have issues, but some of those don't and I'm not in denial! LOL ;)

Salvia 'May Night' is awesome in my garden... I've seen Salvia 'Purple Rain' at the garden centers and it didn't tempt me at all. I might go back for one later though and give it a try, as I can't get enough Salvias.

Now about those Ajugas, what is wrong with 'Burgundy Glow'?! Beautiful coloring and it's one of my favorites and it's no where anything like 'Caitlins Giant', it's cute and I love it. Only issue they could possibly have with it is that it doesn't ("propagate") spread like say 'Bronze Beauty' which will take over if you let it. I did find both 'Catlin's Giant' and 'Black Scallop' this year, I love the larger dark crinkly leaves! Both have the same look but 'Black Scallop' has a darker plum purplish hue to it's almost black foliage that is just yummy. :)

Ajuga 'Chocolate Chip' is not only the most striking ajuga I've seen, it's the toughest. I have it in two separate areas, one quite dry, and it's as happy there as in a moister area. Great spring bloom as well, and vigorous without being agressive. I can't imagine that this plant has any problems associated with it.

Artemisia 'Powys Castle' is another great perennial. Magnificent backdrop for deeply colored perennials, and great silver foliage. Needs well drained soil though or it may die in winter. Not a problem plant.

There needs to be a reliable independent resource for informing gardeners of plants that have problems or have been superceded by superior varieties. If someone in the industry started such a website, I for 1 would be extremely grateful.

I grow Ajuga 'Chocolate Chip', Salvia 'May Night' and Monarda 'Jacob Cline' and all are solid performers that have been on the market without reported "problems" for quite awhile. So count me among the skeptics that "discontinued" means "defective".

A good example of the craze for new varieties leading to the discarding of many perfectly fine (and often superior) older ones is in the sale of African violets. I suspect the same thing goes on frequently with such collectors' perennials as daylilies and hostas, where the urge to have the latest and greatest is overwhelming.

In the end we all have some criteria for choosing plants. We think they are beautiful, they are on sale, somebody recommended them, somebody gave us one, etc. Choosing because it's on the Proven Winners list is as good a reason as any.

I have to second calliope's reasoning--patents will run out and the plant, annual or perennial, is not the sole property of PW or other outfits, so on to the next plant. In our local MG mtg talk given by a PW rep a few years back, he pretty much said the same thing, although he was talking about annuals at the time.

entling, I'm with you. I had to contact ItSaul directly to find out that Sunset Echinacea had major vegetative issues. The fact that we know know that several items on that list were discontinued by the hybridizer for vegetative reasons (all 3 Echinaceas, the Heuchera, etc.) gives me pause about the whole list. It's entirely possible that some of the items on the last are there for no other reason then being fazed out to make more money, but there's no facts to back up that claim at this point. What we know for a fact is that some items on that list are there because of actual problems. The anecdotal evidence offered here of "it grows fine in my garden" doesn't mean the plant wasn't pulled for problems. Of course, every plant that makes it that far public is going to be fine a good chunk of the time; the issues may only appear in a portion of the crop, or only a few years down the road.
In the absence of some master list of all plants pulled for vegetative problems, th next best thing we have is that list from PW. Perhaps some active GW member who is "in the business" could make a more accurate list...

Let me add another comment from within the industry.

There are all sorts of reasons Proven Winners may decide to discontinue marketing a specific cultivar - it may be difficult or slow to propagate, it may have prohibitively restrictive royalties associated with it due to patenting or trademarks, it may not sell as well as they had hoped or they have elected to replace it with a different, typically newly released, but similar plant. It does not necessarily mean that there is anything inferior or inherently "defective" about the discontinued cultivar.

Proven Winners is a marketing label, nothing more. They are profit driven and if their costs are too high for the return or the consumers are not buying, then they change their selection. It's as simple as that. They do not have a corner on the enormous perennial plant market nor are they arbitors of what is or isn't a gardenworthy plant.

As a manager and a buyer for a large retail nursery and a nursery professional for many years, I can state with impunity that all of the plants included on the linked listing continue to be widely grown and sold by all manner of wholesalers and with good reason - most are great plants, some award winners. I buy, carry and sell out of pretty much every plant on that list and not once have I ever brought one in that has a Proven Winners tag or proprietary container associated with it. I choose to support my local wholesale growers and not to line PW's already very fat pockets.

Unfortunately, many new releases are hyped up with heavy marketing campaigns before they have been fully tested for performance, hardiness and durability. Coreopsis 'Limerock Ruby' is one that was initially touted as a perennial coreopsis but was later determined that its parentage made it act more like an annual - it continues to be sold today as an annual coreopsis. Ditto with the 'Art's Pride/Orange Meadowbrite' echinaceas - the breeding program just hadn't been able to nail down color stability before their widespread release, which the Itsaul breeding program has very successfully accomplished.

What it boils down to is consumer awareness and the ability to select plants for their reliability and performance, not because some marketeer somewhere has decided that this newest selection should be hyped to maximize their profits or that this old selection should be "phased out" because it is no longer covered by patent restrictions and is fair game to any wholesale grower.

YOU as the consumer are the deciding factor as to what gets carried by and is available in your local garden centers and your favorite mail order or online nursery, not some faceless organization with a self-serving title.
If you like the plant, buy it and grow it, but don't base your choices based on some arbitrary listing one marketing company has determined for purely subjective and mostly economic reasons will govern the selections they offer. There are zillions more fish in the sea than Proven Winners.

This is the problem with internet message boards. Some people who post don't read. Nowhere in this thread has anyone claimed PW doesn't pull plants for marketing reasons, yet people keep posting trying to affirm that claim.

Oh, I think those of us who are in the business read it pretty well. I just don't think you're too happy with our responses, which seem to be pretty much all coming from the same direction. We deal with that issue on a daily basis when we base our profits on cultural issues as much as popular labels. It's what keeps our customers returning. You can only sell hype once, but dependability keeps them coming back. I think the main reason we point out things like marketing, and marketing programs is the misconception arising that those plants will no longer be available at all, and that's not true. That list contains some fine and dependable choices, along with a few who didn't live up to their promises.

I'll tell you what some breeders consider "Improvements". Wider colour ranges, more dwarfism, earlier bloom. Sometimes it comes at the expense of hardiness, loss of scent, smaller bloom size. It's a very subjective business, the nursery trade....wrought with fads and waxes and wanes in popularity. Just because one promotional label is dropping something, I wouldn't be "watching" my garden for performance and being suspect. After all, if you think about it, they're the same people who told you to buy it in the first place, didn't they?

mwieder, your initial post certainly gave the impression that you felt these plants had been discontinued because there was something "wrong" with them and your subsequent postings did nothing to dispell this notion. Professional insiders have provided various reasons why this practice is followed by select wholesalers and marketing organizations and it is a practice that is not unique to horticulture. Plant fads and cultivar popularity comes and goes, as calliope has pointed out, in much the same way that clothing fashions change and car manufacturers keep coming out with new and improved models with all sorts of bells and whistles. That doesn't mean the old stuff is junk, just that they want you to continue to buy the new and typically more expensive offerings. It is a business after all and a very lucrative one and the more you spend on the latest and greatest (which btw all tend to be patented offerings with royalities involved), the better the bottom line. I guarantee you this is the overriding concern of Proven Winners, not the reliability or performance of the plants.

mweider,
Your original post was meant to be informative and helpful; I'm sure of that. And it was, in large part because it stimulated an excellent discussion of trends, the economics of a billion dollar industry, as well as personal opinions and experiences.

With respect, please try to appreciate what your question evoked. No one, no one has tried to prove your original post incorrect or questioned your intentions or intelligence. Posters with experience and intelligence equal to yours pointed out that behind a simple list, was a more complicated story.

Thanks for stimulating a most interesting discussion. Now join me for a wine cooler or vodka and tonic...

Marie/idabean

I haven't heard of any "master list" of perennials or other plants singled out for defective performance (one can only imagine the uproar over what should or shouldn't be on the list), but if list validation is important, here's a link from the USDA providing ornamental plant award winners in a variety of categories, with national and regional selections.

You'll notice, for example, that Salvia 'May Night" is not only a Perennial Plant Association plant of the year for 1997, it appears on the Royal Horticultural Society's Award of Garden Merit listing for 2004-05. Such ratings (especially the latter) are going to be more reliable than a single marketer's list of what plants to push for an upcoming season, for reasons already described.

We are not dealing with prescription drugs here, so double-blind studies are not available. However, anecdotal reports from GW posters and other gardeners, supplementing reports from garden trials suggest that a substantial number of plants on the PW list are fine ornamentals.

Further notes: Salvia 'May Night' and S. 'Purple Rain' are selections from entirely different species, so direct comparisons are not especially valid.
Also (warning - anecdote alert): Our severe early spring cold snap killed most of my planting of Ajuga 'Black Scallop' (the newer Ajuga favored by Proven Winners). Ajuga 'Chocolate Chip' (a PW deletion) came through unscathed and is beautiful again this year.

I noticed that Heuchera 'Snow Angel' was on this list. Have to say she's a beauty.

{{gwi:247824}}

{{gwi:247826}}

I appreciate what you were intending to point out, but a lot of those are truly Proven Winners. The last Unproven Winner I got took on was Coreopsis Limerock Ruby. What an absolutely gorgeous plant - and as we all know, not even close to the zone tolerance they claimed. If I could afford that as an annual I'd grow it every year. Since then, I've let others go where I fear to tread, and let them report back on how the new varieties do.

This billion dollar industry is actually in decline off of its peak, has been for about 5 years, and seeking to promote and market the new things in order to maintain profitability. That's ok though, occasionally they come up with some really great things, like hydrangeas that bloom on new wood - a vast improvement in my opinion.