I think this is a great idea! Yes we do have a variety of soil in New England. But I would like to see included soil in venal pooling areas. We have many small streams that overflow periodically throughout the year - and many of them are not in full sun. Planting is a real challenge!

When I had 8 samples done by UCONN it was truly amazing the different levels of nutrients (Calcium, Magnesium, Phosphorous, Potassium) and various pH levels, sandy loam, and organic content. It was mind boggling!

The thing people have gotten hung up on in the past is the inability to include links to the various state testing agencies in the FAQ. It's probably the single most important piece of information on the subject - how do *I* find out what kind of soil I am dealing with - and it hasn't been allowed in the FAQ. It's particularly difficult in this forum since many of us know the procedure in our state, but nothing about how to have a soil test done a few miles away across a state line.

treeskate:

Are you interested in planting in vernal pooling areas because you want to establish landscaping/gardens?

or are you trying to encourage habitat for critters (frogs, etc.) or ephemeral plants that inhabit these vernal pools?

mad gallica:

It certainly would be better to be able to include links, but I think that most people are simply not aware that pretty much all NE states have agencies that carry out soil testing. In fact, a lot of people probably don't realize that soil can easily be tested for pH and nutrients.

When the issue first arises in your yard, you don't know whether you should go to Home Depot, buy a soil testing kit, use kitchen chemistry, take photos, or taste the stuff.

I should be able to list agencies for each state (without phone numbers and links) and assume that readers are perfectly capable of making the connection once they know what they're looking for. Also, a lot of people are uncomfortable about posting what might seem like a dumb question, but might be OK with asking "Does anybody know of a soil testing agency in Plymouth County? or Maine? or wherever."

Sometimes you just need to know where to start looking.

Claire

I'm trying to plant landscape/garden material. I currently have clethra, astilbe, bog rosemary, marsh marigolds, and a variety of berry shrubs (for the birds/butterlies) but have one swath of cold muck that at least gets sunlight. The other side, where the water comes in from the stream (on the west border but each side of my 75ft wide yard has very high secondary forest trees) just doesn't seem to support anything except some weeds. Bog material just doesn't work here as there is no standing water. I did make a recent posting in the soil forum with more detail that the ecologist provided.

Sorry if this is more info than you wanted but people either talk about bog soil/gardens or totally wild natural woodlands, and others just say "you've got a real problem...."

treeskate

At this point I'm happy to get any relevant information. I need to know what the issues are and what people want to have included in the FAQ.

Later on I'll figure out how to put it all together.

Claire

What if you say something like, "You can use a search engine to look up soil testing your-county or soil testing your-state. Often the local agricultural extension will perform soil testing for a nominal fee."

Treeskate, I've been planting native plants in a similar situation. Note that technically a bog is a wet place with a low pH. I don't have a bog, I have a limestone fen. A lot more plants will grow there because there are a lot more nutrients available. I don't really garden down there because I'd have to keep the cattails and phragmites under control.

Winterberry
Lindera benzoin
Cinnamon fern
Ostrich fern
Viburnum trilobum
Many different varieties of shrubby dogwoods

Witchhazels are another idea, though I have those planted on dry land in relatively more sun.

greening:

That's a good way to go. I also just checked the Soils, Compost and Mulch Forum FAQ and they have a Soil Testing FAQ. I'll probably refer to this and just add something New England specific.

Claire

Here is a link that might be useful: Soil Forum FAQ on testing

mad_gallica

I have everything you listed but the ferns will only grow on the very edge of the stream wall, which is higher than the swath (deepest part) of the vernal path...can't get them to take hold anywere else.

claire:

Another thing you 'might' consider is a book list or note what kind of books have the best information for understanding the soils of New England. For instance, while browsing at the CT DEP bookstore a few years ago, I purchased a wonderful book "The Face of Connecticut - People, Geology, and the Land" by Michael Bell. It is divided into 'Landscapes' (central valley, uplands, the coast, 20th Century Landscape) and 'Geology' (a sense of time, Mapping the land, the changing face of Connecticut, Qui Transtulit...) Great illustrations, drawings, etc. to better understand a particular area and the type of soils found. I don't know if other states have done a similar book - and this might be too indepth for the average gardener.

You might also review the forum 'New to Gardening' to get a feel for the type of questions regarding soil that people ask especially when they are new to gardening.' Even I check it out periodically and learn something too.

treeskate:

excellent ideas! A book list would be very useful, and I'll check the New to Gardening Forum.

I just posted a request for input on the Soils Forum, where many experts abide.

Claire

What if you say something like, "You can use a search engine to look up soil testing your-county or soil testing your-state. Often the local agricultural extension will perform soil testing for a nominal fee."

Almost, If you live in Taxachewsits, Dukakas (D\-MASS) eliminated the County Agent system ( But this was part of the Land Grant College system from Abe Lincoln) For awhile NH and RI were testing for MASS residents.. Not sure if UMASS started testing again.. I know that some of MASS is alkaline, They have lime mines around North Adams. Marble in Vt is a type of lime :\-)

That would be a useful FAQ. My only comment would be to emphasize what others have already pointed out, namely, that soil conditions here are about as variable as the weather. Even on one lot the range of soil types, pH, moisture, etc. can vary widely, so in many cases multiple samples would be necessary to get a true picture. For example, I am in an unusual(fortunate?) situation in that I live on top of a small rise right on the edge of the Connecticut River flood plain (across from Wethersfield Bow, if you know the river). Under an 18-inch layer of loamy sand it is, literally, about a 50 foot deep, maybe more, hill of almost pure sand. The only rocks I have ever hit when digging my gardens were placed there by previous owners (old foundations, wells, etc.). The downside is that my soil drains in minutes and dries out quickly, and in a week I can have crispy lawn syndrome. Great drainage for perennial beds, if they are mulched, but not your typical Âthin soil over granite bedrock like I had at my last house. BUT, in some places there is a clay-based underlayer, probably pockets left over from when the river or the streams on the property meandered through thousands of years ago. These areas retain water and have a very different profile. I can easily spot them right now out on the lawn, because in those places the grass is green and tall compared to the crispy lawn around them. On top of this the land has been farmed for over 250 years, so it has been modified with years of tilling in cover growth, cow manure, etc. Depending on where you live, that could definitely play a role in soil quality, since so much farmland is being converted to housing.

Again, my point would be that, unless someone really knew that their soil was homogeneous, if they were going to garden in four places on their property and wanted the soil tested, then they should take four samples. More expensive, but it would save money in the long run through fewer lost plants.

treeskate  have you tried any lobelia, ,like cardinal flower? It is growing naturally all along my stream coming out of the pond, and that stretch just gets dappled sun. Ladyslippers are another option. They are growing under full tree cover in the boggy area above the pond.

narcnh

narcnh:

This is an excellent description of a specific soil type! If you don't mind, I may quote you in the FAQ.

It also would be great if other people can post similar descriptions of their sites. Mad Gallica has mentioned a limestone fen, which would be another example of what's lurking in soils in New England, and Treeskate's property is also relevant.

I found a reference on State Soils, which give local profiles. I haven't really read it yet, but plan to (each example is a pdf file, so it's not a quick scan).

State Soils

I also found similar information on Plymouth County.

Plymouth County Geology

I don't want to get too technical, but I'd like to give enough information so that people aren't lulled into the "acidic soil with rocks" mindset.

Claire

narch
Yes, I have lobelia too and it has seeded itself in the most unusual spots across about 20 feet! It is funny to see it pop up red amongst my white astilbe!

claire
I started re-reading the book I previously mentioned about CT and got an even better picure of my various soils.
As narch mentioned (and while reading my book and my ecologists' report) there are many interchangable words used to descibe the various soils and subsoils. Certainly those common to basic soil sample reports might make a starting point list to accompany the FAQ.

Oh, this is such fun! And to learn other people have such a variety of soils on their property (no matter how small and the impact of weather and people over the generations!)
I was reminded of the impact flooding on the Nile (Egypt) had on the livilihood of those people, especially the silt that gets deposited with all its minerals. When we had the 100 yr flood last year here, all I could think of was the Nile, the silt, and how wonderful my shrubs would do this Spring. So far the impact has been excellant (sand, silt, etc.)and everything is thriving. Of course today, yet again, the bank has overflowed and the power of the rushing water is awesome - more good things will be deposited for sure......

I'd be interested if anybody has an idea how far east lime deposits are likely to be found. My understanding is that what happened in this generally area is that once upon a time what is now the Berkshires and the Taconics was ocean. Shells and things like that accumulated and turned into limestone. Then the whole thing was lifted up into a mountain range higher than the current Himalayas. After that, it started to erode, and all that lime was washed down stream beds. If you happen to be in one of those ancient stream beds, you are in a lime pocket. If you aren't, the soil is quite acidic. At least that explains the sharp changes.

The first real hint I got about how widespread the lime was, came from William Cullina's Wildflower book. I was quite surprised at how many typical New England wildflowers he described as being native to neutral to alkaline soil.

BTW, when I figure out exactly how much water they want, I'm going to buy from ladyslippers. Somewhere down there, it sounds like there is almost perfect habitat for them.

Here is a link that might be useful: Berkshires Geology

Hi Claire,

Be my guest for the quote. I have been quoted for saying much worse. ;)

narcnh

treeskate:

Good idea about a glossary of soil test terms. and the effect of flooding on soil fertility is important.

Mad Gallica:

Good point about the native wildflowers that grow in neutral to alkaline soil. I'm bookmarking all of these links to digest.

I try not to look at ladyslippers in the catalogs, but couldn't resist checking Plant Delights:

C. reginae

Claire

claire

I just did a google search for county extension agents and the first listing is the usda.gov country and you mouse your state. It then takes you to the major county extension agent for that state (and from there, people can learn more about soil testing etc.) I checked all the New England states and the links are active. I didn't stay on any link (state) for further information specifically, but it is a source.....

I guess it really would be difficult to do a FAQ just for NE as the soils are sooooo diverse. And as you said, you don't want to repeat from the excellant soil forum. And who are we targeting (new gardeners, regulars?)

The topic can be overwhelming, but I think the goal is for gardeners to have success, expecially newbies, with some basic understanding - that New England has a huge range of soil types even within their yard - and the importance of soil testing. Of course the next question is always 'what do I do with the results?'

treeskate:

I think the target should be

- new gardeners,

- experienced gardeners who are new to New England, and

- New England gardeners who have been brainwashed by the "acidic soil with rocks" assumption and can't understand why their plants that require acid conditions don't thrive.

Your statement "The topic can be overwhelming, but I think the goal is for gardeners to have success, expecially newbies, with some basic understanding - that New England has a huge range of soil types even within their yard - and the importance of soil testing." is exactly why I thought we should have this FAQ!

I'm beginning to get a feeling for how to put this together, but I'm not there yet. Thanks for your interest!.

Claire

claire

You might want to contact Lee Reich. He writes for many publications and did a book on NorthEast gardening. He has his own web page/leereich.com. According to his interests/web page info, and his articles in FG, soil is one of his specialities. Perhaps in his research he already has the info to share with you and might save you a lot of time...

Thanks, treeskate, I'll give Lee Reich a try.

Claire

I e-mailed Lee Reich, who responded quickly. Unfortunately, he didn't have the type of information I'm look for. His website is well worth a visit, though, and I'll probably buy the Northeast Gardener book.

I'm delving into geology now, and found this very nice presentation on the website of the Society of Soil Scientists of New England.

Claire

Here is a link that might be useful: New England Soil Formation/Genesis

Sorry to hear he couldn't help...his articles are very interesting.

When I had samples done at UCONN, my pH ranged from 4.9 to 5.8

I also did the NCSS web soil survey and in my area (I was able to zone down pretty close to my property) the Map Unit Summary stated I had 67.1% 'Manchester gravelly sandy loam and 32.9% Limerick and Lim Soils....that corresponds with some of the findings by my ecologist in his survey of my lower property.

I am continuing to read Face of Connecticut and if I find any reference to any parts of CT that is not acidic or has unusual properties, I'll post them.

Perhaps some inquiries to Ecologists in the various states might yield some more information. I had to have one to clear my land because it included wetlands in order to get state and town DEP permits. My company did a huge report and the agencies were stunned and impressed! Well worth the money....!

That NESFG site is very cool. I was able to identify my soil as almost exclusively 'Windsor loamy sand', which is defined as: "The Windsor series consists of excessively drained soils that formed in thick deposits of sand", and a little 'Unidilla variant silt loam.' That describes it to a tee.

Thanks for the link!

narcnh

Another good site was given by gumby ct on the Soils Forum.

It's fussy about which browser it will work with - it doesn't accept Safari for Mac, but does work on Netscape 7.2 for Mac.

Claire

Here is a link that might be useful: NCSS Web Soil Survey

claire,

That's actually the website I went to, following a link from the other one you listed. Didn't realize they were different sites. The NCSS one gave me the soil specifics and maps I was hoping to find.

Thanks,

narcnh

narcnh:

Ah, that it explains it. I was puzzled by your first response because it sounded like the NCSS Web Soil Survey site. I checked and realized I had not posted the NCSS site on the New England forum; it was on the Soils forum thread, so I added it for people here. I didn't know it was a link on the New England Soil Formation/Genesis site.

After all this searching I've discovered that at least my head drains well.

Claire

I ordered the Roadside Geology of Massachusetts book, and it's excellent! I don't know about the other state books, but the MA one gives very comprehensive, and readable, information on the geology of specific localities.

Lots of historical tidbits, seen with a geologist's eye. For example:

Re Walden Pond (italics mine)

"Henry David Thoreau recounts without comment a Native American legend that I consider to be quite plausible: a mountain once stood where Walden Pond is now. The story goes that one night a group of Native Americans were camped at the base of the mountain. It collapsed, killing all of them except a woman, Walden, who escaped.

There was a mountain there once-a mountain of ice. It was probably filled with and covered with enough sand, gravel, and rock fragments to support vegetation! The huge, towering block of ice rested againt a bedrock hill called Emerson's Cliff. Upon melting, the ice block left a deep depression filled with water, a kettle. Walden Pond is 158 feet deep."

He also includes a diagram showing how this could have happened.

Claire (who will put some of this information together one of these days, when other things stop interrupting)

Here is a link that might be useful: Roadside Geology books

"Byron" writes:

> Almost, If you live in Taxachewsits, Dukakas (D-MASS)
> eliminated the County Agent system ( But this was part of
> the Land Grant College system from Abe Lincoln)

Almost. I take it that you're "living free" in one of those towns that have lower property taxes, with the school system to prove it.

In 1994 the County Form of Government was abolished in Massachusetts. Not that it matters, but the Governor at the time was William Weld. Republican. A pretty good governor too, especially in comparison to the last couple.

But I digress. The impact on the Cooperative Extension Service? Nil. That's right. It's always been run, not by County Government, but out of Amherst. Originally out of the Stockbridge School of Agriculture, nowadays out of UMass-Amherst. Not that there's much of a difference as Stockbridge is right in the middle of Campus.

There may have been a time in recent history when you couldn't get your soil tested in State, but I don't recall, and I think I'd need a better source than some hillbilly from a subpar school district.

The Morrill Land Grant Act was signed by Lincoln, but it was fathered by the guy it's named after, a State Rep from Vermont. But, hey!, he was a Republican, if that's important to you.