One additional question we are asking, digit, is "what shall we give to the needy?"

That is: we are planting extra food to give away to those who need it.

Dan

A low income is very nearly a recipe for malnutrition, Dan.

S'

I recently read "Victory Garden," which was originally written during WWII, when a it was found that a startling number of "our boys" couldn't pass basic health tests--due to no less than malnutrition. The phrase "there's no food in our food" may be more common today than it was back then, but the answer is still to grow our own and they'll be not only more flavorful but also more nutritious. I love the idea of setting aside a part of the garden for the needy--we have a family that we leave a bag of groceries for every Sunday (they still don't know it's us), and I look forward to putting some of our fresh veggies in there for them.

Personally, and it's only partially psychosomatic, when I bite into a sun-warmed tomato and the seeds are dripping off my chin, I feel better than if I were sitting down to dine on crab legs and filet mignon (that doesn't mean that I won't do the latter when the sun isn't warming anything but a patch of carpet on the floor for the kitties to languish in!).

Interesting that you have that old book, Mayberry. I looked for that book in the World Catalog and it is nowhere near me in a library. But, the name of the author rang a bell ♪

So, I checked an online book written in 1910 on chickens (of all things ;o) that I read a few months ago. M. G. Kains wrote that, too. Five Acres and Independence, Culinary Herbs: Their Cultivation Harvesting Curing and Uses, Gardening for Young People - wrote those too, a long time ago!

I was talking to my daughter about the problems that existed with malnutrition in the USofA 60, 80 years ago. She was asking me if I thought she had a good enuf diet. Despite, or because of, all the fast food available to her and her inclination to eat it - nope, she sure wasn't doing what she needs to do.

Processed foods have a lot of empty calories but do we really think that we wouldn't return to a society in which 60% of our children were anemic if we didn't supplement white flour with vitamins and minerals? And yet, the nutritionists keep telling us that we don't need supplements! But we do, if we continue to eat the deficient modern diet. We are trapped!

Green vegetables like broccoli, kale, and Asian greens are especially good sources of iron and, I've read that the iron in them is more easily absorbed with the high levels of vitamin C that come in these veggies. Freedom!

As far as animal sources for iron: a hen's egg, ounce for ounce, has more iron than crab legs and nearly as much as filet mignon. Low Cost Freedom!

If we have some resources, we don't need to be chewing our nails over finding good food. We just need to pay some attention to requirements.

digitS'

And, having grown up cooking with my gram's WWII cookbook, I was amazed at how odd their rationing suggestions were. Some of them made sense, add lots of homegrown veggies and add nuts to the diet. But some made no sense--lard?? Eww.

Some of you know I don't have a TV and I haven't had one in...eleven? years. So, I watch things on Miro. One really interesting thing is CUPS, Cooking Up a Story. The "episode" we recently watched was almost too heartbreaking. A family struggling to feed themselves. If the husband went to work, they lost $300 in food stamps per month. He did go to work but after all the juggling, they were only a few bucks richer than when he was a stay at home dad.

The saddest part for me was their choices for veggies--potatoes with canned corn!! Isn't that just starch?

Then, we read an article about using little rain gutters to grow your greens in, if you have a small yard or no yard.

I think that a lot of food choices are based on information and that the info that gets to us as kids makes a huge difference on what we choose for ourselves and our families.

I like veggies. I love it when they are served alongside anything that contains rice and beans. Isn't that pretty good? Rice, beans and veggies? I try to skip potatoes as they seem to be just filler to me.

I also add lots of nuts and dried fruits to my regular eating habits...yum!

I never grew up on fast foods so I never got to liking them. I am not surprised that so many families rely on them though!! A whole family can be fed for a few bucks it seems!! Dinner, dessert and beverage for the cost of a fancy organic apple or two? Yikes!

One thing I really thank my parents for are the "choices" we were given for snacks as kids. She would let us choose between carrots, celery or apples and they were always in bite sized pieces and within our reach in the fridge. I didn't know the choice was limited, I just liked having the freedom to pick my own food. Maybe cookies as a choice would have been nice but I never would have known that!

Isn't McD's putting veggies in their pre-packed meals now? Happy Meals? I thought I heard that somewhere...or maybe it was apples. I sure hope they start providing better choices or that real food becomes within $reach of the average family's income!!

Oooh, I like this topic, Digit!

jclepine, I agree with you that much of our eating habit is formed as children. I thought I hated whole wheat bread, until I grew up and tried some white bread. Now, I can't even eat dinner rolls when we're out--the starch and white bread is just plain nasty to my tastebuds! Ditto for white rice--give me some long-grain brown (to go with any of your above-mentioned suggestions!) with some wild rice, which is actually a grain. Okay, so it takes forever to cook. Who cares? It's better for me and tastes better, too. Now, if only my husband, who is from the south, where they fry their fat before they eat it, could get on board with me... I have to "sneak" healthy stuff in, like I'll make white rice but put a little brown in with it. Next time, it'll have a little more, and so on. Agreed with everybody, though: if we don't supplement the stuff that people ARE eating, we'll be in even worse shape (as a whole), even if the supplements are synthetic.

Digits, regarding Kaines' books, yes, he's been around the block and some of his stuff must have been (and obviously still is!) a great resource for folks. I did have to laugh though, at signs of the times: among other things, he talked about treating bean beetles with arsenic. ACK! Okay, so the book has some great ideas about growing vegetables for year-round consumption, and how to store them for winter, what would store & what wouldn't, etc. If it were my book, I'd send it your way--it's an interesting read if nothing else--alas, it is a local library book. Check on ebay or abebooks.com maybe? It has been reprinted a couple times--the copy I read was from 1977 but had preserved most of the original work from what I could tell.

Interesting thing about the iron deficiency, too. I have been eating to prepare my body for pregnancy, and have researched ways to add easily-assimilated nutrients. Found out that folic acid is found in most fermented items, including kefir & kombucha. Hey, now there's a new topic thread... Interesting how when we eat the things that our body needs, it functions at top notch. Kinda like we were designed that way? For some reason, my car won't run without gasoline-go figure!

Oh, pregnancy . . .

DD was here today. She will be 21 in a few days and is on her last lap for junior year in college.

She was telling me how she is trying to find healthy substitutes for snacks and drinks. DD is really on the right track and she didn't have much experience with fast food until she was out on her own. Of course, the fact that we didn't take her to the "joints" and kept her out of some aisles at the supermarket didn't stop the never-ending McD and breakfast cereal commercial drumbeat. But, I'm optimistic she'll make some of those healthy choices like J has.

I realize that kids just turn off the parent's lectures. If the information is, "you can't" or "you shouldn't" - that's just discounted. But, she's like most young women and a little concerned about any extra pounds. (I use that against her ;o).

If a lot of calories come from a single meal, the body isn't as "interested" in getting more calories from sometime and somewhere else. The idea that 5 plus servings of fruits and vegetables a day is just too much food is related.

I probably follow the food pyramid scheme fairly closely but have a few of those extra pounds so here's my plan:

A large hamburger bun (nothing else) is 160 calories.

That bun "cheats" me out of 2 or 3 servings of fruit or vegetables. . . . just the bun!

Put a tablespoon of mayo on the bun - - I've just cheated myself out of another 1 or 2 servings of fruits and vegetables.

A hamburger bun with mayo has as many calories as 3 to 5 servings of fruits and vegetables. So for lunch, I'll eat the lettuce, tomato and ground beef patty ~ naked ~ . . ! Then have rest of the day to find a few cups of fruits and vegetables.

S'

mayberry:
"from the south, where they fry their fat before they eat it"

Oh, that had me laughing up a storm!! My gram used to tell us, in response to our "pork rinds are full of fat" statements, "Oh, these are fat free, they don't have any fat."

No, really!! I said, "But, gramma, this is fried fat you are eating!"

If I ate what my gram did, I'd be a rolly polly!!

I like that you sneak a little brown rice into the white. That is good thinkin'!!

Digit, I am totally there! If I eat a good and solid meal, I am less likely to want snacks. And, if I do get that snacky feeling, I eat stuff that doesn't have sugar and has whole grain. Funny, but those flat crisps (wasa, ryvita) can really grow on a person if you don't eat goldfish or cheese its!

Don't get me wrong, I like junky foods too...sometimes. I just don't prefer them or crave them. Well, not really, but there are some junky things I like. If I want cookies, I eat the healthier kind etc. The junkiest things I eat would be cheeses....nom nom nummy yum! Although, Skybird did feed me cake and ice-cream last summer :)

And, while in the PNW this last trip........oh, man! I ate two bowls of ice cream in one night!! I never eat that stuff but when I had the one, I just had to have the other! It was good, too, "udderly chocolate" which was a combo of chocolate and white chocolate. Wheeeee, sugar high!

We just got back from the green fair thing in Denver not too long ago. It was pretty fun. So many vendors there with little snack trays out full of healthy or organic goodies.

There was a booth for a great project related to this topic: They put in organic food gardens for persons with lower income and even water them and help maintain them. or, at least, that is what I understood.

I didn't get all of the information as I was pretty full already, but it sounded great.

naked burger? oh, wow, too silly!!

I'm trying to eat healthier, whole foods, but I have a wicked, wicked, sweet tooth. I caved, and bought Oreos the other day. I've resisted the Oreos for months (which were often a regular item at my house in the past). Bad idea. I should be able to pass them by again now though. I do still bake some sweets, but at least I know what goes in them and can add some healthier stuff too. I have been able to avoid a lot of cookies with fruit salad.

GreenBean,
I bake sweets too but I don't do it often. Mainly, I only do that if I can take them with me to a friends house and leave them there. I switch out ingredients to my liking like using molasses granules instead of refined sugar. I've even baked a perfect cake using evaporated cane juice crystals instead of white sugar. It is still sugar, but if you can use something like molasses granules (sucanat or rapadura) then you are using a sugar with a lower glycemic index and, especially with the molasses but not so much the cane juice, you are getting more of the iron.

A friend once told me that if you have a craving for sweets you could stave it off by eating broccoli. I'm not sure it works but, you never know!

Grapefruit is like candy to me. I think there are certain fruits that satisfy. Grapes work for Darren, cherries are another good one. They are like little jelly beans or something!

I know my mom has got to have dessert. She says that her father never EVER let them have dessert as kids and she feels unsatisfied if she doesn't have some kind of sweet treat.

Yep, Cookie Monster here!

You take that lard and work some white flour into it . . . it goes in the oven.

We have had 2 meals with bok choy from under the plastic and there's a huge amount out there coming on!! Picked a little bag of over-wintered orache out of the open garden but would prefer to have that in a salad. Since green salads aren't really my thing, I go for purple. Ha!

Bean, the fruit salad is a great idea. Like J's mom, I feel like I should have just a little sweetness at the end of a meal - maybe it's a reward for having eaten my vegetables. The whipped cream makes it festive (and that stuff's more air than butterfat ;o).

For some reason, my stomach can't handle grapefruit. I've been eating nice oranges before breakfast these days, the neglected ripe bananas went in the pancake mix. Pancakes? You know - a cookie that didn't make it all the way into the oven . . .

S'

I can't live without Vitamin IC! I think maybe a doctor told me that a long, long, long, long, long time ago!

;-)
Skybird

Now, by "Vitamin IC" was that a typo for vit c or did you mean vitamin Ice Cream?

Somehow, I think you meant ice cream!!

:)

Somehow I think I meant Vitamin Ice Cream too, Jennifer! I was "taking" some when I did that post! I have some every nite before I go to bed, and if Ive been working outside or something and Im hot, I have TWO dishes in a day! Unfortunately I can only have my nitely snack when Im home! Havent figured outyethow to take some along in my suitcase for layovers! But Im working on that!

But, hey! I weight the same thing I did when I was 20! Maybe its the Vitamin IC thats keeping me slim! ;-)

I have a bunch more to say on this thread, but am just too busy with swap stuff. Maybe Ill make it back here after the swap.

Skybird

I wish I weighed the same as I did when I was 20. Well, let me think about that. I don't need to weigh as little as I did when I was 18 . . . 155 lb @ 6 ft +. I may have still weighed that little at 20 but somewhere along in there the slow upward progression began.

It didn't really pick up much speed until sometime after passing 40 yrs and learning that I could eat anytime and in almost in any amount with or without good cause.

Sooo, I'm 50 lbs over that high school weight in just about as many yrs.

'Scuse me while I go scrape a little chicken fat onto a slice of bread. Shame to let something like that go to waste.

S'

When I was a kid we did that, Digit! Chicken fat and salt on white bread! Yum! It really IS good, since the fat is where most of the flavor is, but, oy vey! The calories---and THE FAT!

WW II diets is one of the things I want to come back and post about---when I have time!

Is it time for my second dish of Vitamin IC today yet???

Skybird

Oh, wow! You and your ice cream! As long as you enjoy it and it enjoys you...

My gram put fat and salt on everything. Since I am sensitive to salt (burns my mouth) I usually avoid it as much as I can. My gram would forget and I'd remind her "don't put salt on it." Then, one bite later..."I didn't think a shake or two would hurt."

And, a WWII thingy: My mom and my elementary school best friend's mom got into a slight verbal tiff. Her mom did not drain the oil from the tuna can and said that my mom drained the oil because she was on a diet. My mom retorted that she only kept it because she was still living on the WWII ration diet in which they all ate fat in place of meat. Oy, vey!!

Strange the things we remember...

Ok, Im back here for one more post tonite! Ill get into the WW II thing later (no, I dont actually remember it, but I have a Betty Crocker "Doing Your Share" rationing cookbook, and I still have the ration coupons my parents had left at the end of the warand, as you just commented, Jennifer, some of the rationing practices continued for many years after the war!), but heres some info I learned of a few years agoand its important!

A couple years ago when I found out I couldnt take the osteoporosis preventing drugs (Fosamax, Boniva, etc.) and I, and my doctor, were concerned that I could lose too much bone mass because of my "advanced age," my doctor checked my Vitamin D level. The most important of the two levels that are measured (25 Hydroxy on the lab tests) was below the current low limitand more and more doctors are thinking that what they currently use as the low, should be raised a lot. Normal values for 25 Hydroxy are currently placed at 32.0 to 100.0. My level at that time was 26.2, and a month later, in June, it was down to 17.1! By June I was out in the sun a LOT, and when Im gardening, Im usually wearing the minimum politically correct attireand I dont use sun screen, so I get a LOT of direct sun! At that point I started taking a supplement, in addition to the D in the calcium I had been taking for years already. For over 2 years now Ive been taking about 2000 IU in supplements a day, and my 25 Hydroxy level in April was finally up to 64.0still not terribly high, but much better. And, again, with our warm winter this year, Ive been getting more than "the daily recommended amount" of direct sun most of the winter!

So why is all this important? Doctors are now finding out that Vitamin D affects far more than just bone development. Theyre beginning to describe it more like a hormone than a vitaminapparently it affects virtually every cell in our bodies. Its only within about the last 10 years that serious research has been done, and there is already evidence that adequate amounts can help prevent some cancers, diabetes, and heart disease, in addition to preventing osteoporosiswithout drugs. Other studies are trying to find out if it will help with a bunch of other things, including autoimmune diseases.

Heres a link to an article from CNN that gives the basic information. And heres a link to an article from the University of Connecticut Health Center with more info.

Andwell, this is probably WAY more than youre interested in, but heres an article from The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. For brief reading, its summed up in the Abstract right at the beginning, but theres some interesting info further down after the first couple sections with the photosynthesis stuff! Down near the bottom it says that (Im paraphrasing!) the minimum value of 25 Hydroxy should be 50 (now 32) and for maximum bone health and prevention of many chronic diseases, the 25 Dihydroxy concentration should be 78-100. From what Ive read since I started taking supplements, Im guessing the minimum levels will be raised again in a few years.

Apparently there are a LOT of people that are deficient and dont even know it, and some think that the relatively recent increases in chronic diseases like diabetes might be because of low Vitamin D levels. There wasnt even a way to measure Vitamin D levels until 15 years ago, and before then the only way to know if someone was deficient was if they got rickets! Checking your 25 Hydroxy level is a simple blood test, and Im convinced everyone should have their levels checked once a year.

So thats my evangelizing for tonite. Ill be back another time to reminisce about The War to End All Wars!

Skybird

Thanks! I hate taking vitamins and only take my C when I remember. I've been trying to take more vitamins but it really isn't easy. I've always lived under the assumption that it evens out over time and we end up getting what we need if we eat right.

But, when I worked at a clinic in the PNW, they had tons of patients who started out with multi-vitamins. They'd ask "why take a bunch of vitamins you don't even know you need? what if your iron levels are too high?" etc. I found it amazing at how different all the vitamin test results were. Not everyone was deficient in the same ways.

When my next exam is due, I'm going to ask about that Vit D one!!

Good to know.

And, regarding a different war, when my dad had his stroke, they also diagnosed diabetes. The biggest (insert foul word) was when the VA told us that diabetes and stroke were extremely common and expected in Vietnam vets who were exposed to agent orange. HUH? They knew and they couldn't send out notices, put it on the news every year or inform regular physicians to test their vet patients for diabetes??

How hard would it have been to tell the vets that exposure could cause diabetes which, if untreated could cause stroke?

Wow!!

J

Thank you, Skybird!

I'm afraid I have a split personality when it comes to food. I love fresh salads from the garden, pasta made with tomatoes & herbs from the garden, and just about any kind of fruit ... BUT, I also have a major sweet tooth, and if available, will eat ice cream, cookies, etc. in the evening before going to bed. The kids call it a "bednight snack", and we had one almost every night when I was growing up, even if it was just jello with fruit cocktail mixed in. And being raised in the south, I believe BBQ ribs, if done right, are pretty close to heaven on earth!

Having the garden has made me a better cook, but I have always enjoyed baking muffins, cookies, cakes, etc. You forget these things aren't healthy when your kids gobble them down, and tell you that you are the "best cook ever!"

After working in the health/fitness field for several ... oh, okay, many years, I know exactly what I am supposed to eat. However, kids won't always eat the healthy stuff, and neither will my meat-and-potato husband, so over the years, I have begun to compromise my nutritional standards, to the point where I now need to lose a few pounds for the first time in my life.

So, for me, the question isn't what SHOULD I eat, but what WILL I eat? Which leads to the secondary question of, will the rest of the family eat it too?

Bonnie

Bonnie:
"You forget these things aren't healthy when your kids gobble them down, and tell you that you are the "best cook ever!"

Well, I have to say that even though I am very, very light on sweets, I don't see anything wrong with dessert. I am a big supporter of mental health ;)

When people stress out over what they should and should not be eating or how much exercise they should be getting, I tend to think that does more harm than good.

If it feels good to eat it, then I can't see any harm in it. If it causes stress due to avoiding it or worrying about it, then that seems harmful.

Of course, "in moderation" makes a big difference, too!

My physician wonders why I avoid butter on my toast etc. Mainly, because my family's history shows a high risk of heart disease and obesity. She understands, she just thinks I don't need to avoid everything quite so much.

But, since I am happy with the way I eat, I know it is right. And, even though I wish my mom ate healthier, she is happier when she has her treat. AND, she has lost several sizes by adjusting her regular meals and STILL eats her nightly treats!!

With my family, Darren loves salt and sugar, so when either one of us prepares food, we leave out the stuff I don't like and then he adds what he wants--usually salt or sugar depending on what it is.

I'm guessing it is different with kids!!

AND, while I'm at it, I looked up the vitamin D thing at Johns Hopkins. I'm a little weird when it comes to proving stuff. This internet thing makes looking up research so much easier! They say most of us have low D levels and ... go read it for yourselves, it is good info:

I found the info from that non-profit I bumped into at the green festival. They are the ones who help low income families by planting and helping to maintain organic produce gardens.

I hope I can post this and don't get blocked from GW!!!

but, I think it is an interesting plan and worth sharing!

J

Ah, vitamins. There is a great debate regarding vitamins: should you take them, or might you be over-compensating in some areas? Since we all know that we can't trust the FDA anyway, why do we even bother paying attention to what they recommend?

Our bodies are fearfully and wonderfully made, and most will live a long and healthy life if we give it what it needs to thrive. Yeah, and we've all confessed to having a sweet tooth/family that won't get on the healthy-eating bandwagon/loving fried foods. The sad fact is that most Americans are deficient in many vitamins and nutrients, and should be supplemented. While it may be arguable what exactly should be recommended levels (take for example the ever-increasing "recommendations" of Vitamin D; I have read that part of the reason the daily recommendation levels are going up is because the original numbers were based on the thought that most Americans are getting 2 hours of sun per day and now they are adjusting the figures accordingly. Yeah, like who does that, without sunscreen?) and you may or may not be getting "enough" by taking a multivitamin, the research has been done and unless there is an underlying condition, you will not overdose on a vitamin or mineral by taking a multivitamin.

There are, however, some basic tenets of getting the most out of your vitamins. For example, did you know that you have to take calcium with magnesium (ratio 2:1), and on an acidic stomach, such as with vitamin C or orange juice? Did you know that if you take your iron with your calcium, it can be bound up and you won't get much good from having taken an iron supplement? For most people, it's quite simple enough to get enough iron in the diet by red meat (in moderation, right?), which will also give some key B vitamins--both of which will help with anemia and lethargy.

One big thing that you should be aware of is that meat that is corn-fed, sometimes known as feedlot beef, is much higher in Omega 6 fatty acids than the Omega 3's. Our bodies need both, but in balance, and free-range beef has a good balance. So go ahead, have a steak, and then follow it up with your Vitamin IC! For the record, the same is true for farm-raised fish/shrimp/etc. with the imbalance of Omega 6 fatty acids. If you are going to supplement with fish oil, which is HIGHLY recommended if you are getting your vitamin D from sun exposure (will help prevent skin cancer, heart disease, etc. if you have enough Omega 3's), be sure to get the wild-caught, preferably deep water fish oils. This will help to ward balance out those O-3's if you can't find/afford the grass-fed stuff!

All this said because I have a vicious sweet tooth, and as mentioned previously, we're trying to put a bun in the oven and I don't always eat like I know I should. Now, if I could remember to take those prenatals with my vitamin Milky Way!

I had some vitamin IC tonight. Ben & Jerry beckoned to me, they called me to the store. Phish Food. Yum.

Although there are numerous insufficiency signs of vitamin D that face men, let's know more of the most significant insufficiency signs and symptoms of vitamin D before we go forward.

Elevated Blood pressure levels is usually the most significant sign of all. A few studies show that reduced levels of Vitamin D trigger elevated blood pressure in males. It had been also found out that the amount of strokes is actually more frequent primarily during the winter months, when there may be an inappropriate contact with the sun's rays. Understand that you will need to go out for some sun rays on a daily basis, giving absolutely no worth to the time of year.

Wow!

GW now has an "image file to upload" utility!

I thought it might be worth trying!

My ancestry includes Native Americans. Dad has always seemed to me to be very dark skinned and I seem to be "darkening" with age. Or, I may be getting just enuf sunlight thru our long, cloudy winters. Or, I may be darkening because of all the pigments in a diet that includes so many vegetables. There was a story somewhere about how veggies change skin color that I read the other day.

We've got the new "plate" from the USDA that replaced the pyramid being used when this thread was started 3 years ago. They are still talking about "5 a day" but there is an emphasis on this as a minimum and we are still no nearer to that, on average.

The US diet seems to have been so strongly influenced by the British. I thought this article in The Guardian kind of sums up some of what the thinking is there (& here) and shows a comparison with other countries and fruit & veggie recommendations.

"There must be a balance between what is healthy for the British public and what is feasible," said someone from the UK Department of Health. Yeah, when it comes right down to it, there isn't a lot of room for more than, say, double that 5 a day. I mean, with the protein & grains thrown in. Gosh, it gets so that processed starches, sugar and fats might just have to fall by the wayside!

Steve

I'm glad this got bumped back up! Really, really good thread--and I just reread the whole thing! Thanks for starting it--way back when, Digit! Also helped me get back a couple of my good Vitamin D links--that I had lost in The Crash! And saved the link you started the thread with and the great D link Jennifer posted.

And thanks for the info about the "image link!" Not sure I ever would have seen that if you hadn't pointed it out! I love the one you posted--got it in an email forward from somebody some time ago. And here's another one I got in a forward--another one of my favorites--liked it enough to save it, and I don't save much stuff from forwards!

In rereading this I still have LOTS of comments about food, nutrition, vitamins, etc., but I'm really, really, really busy right now and will try to remember to come back "later" to post more--after I successfully get all the reservations made for my vacation up to the Black Hills/Rushmore/Badlands/Yellowstone/Hudson-Meng Bison Bonebed/and more, and all the reservations "meet up" so I don't wind up sleeping in the car some nite! Places are getting gobbled up and I have to get it done now--or I'll wind up sleeping in the car for two weeks!!!

Skybird