T'dor is a Bosch in a different logo. Racks are the same.

If you're serious about full integration , Miele is the way to go. Their rack are smaller too.

That said, none of the euro brands are that much smaller. Maybe and inch in one direction, two at most. This equates to roughly one/two plates, hardly a groundswell. I think we get too preoccupied as a nation with bigger. Now the tines are spaced closer together and this makes some thick earthenware or custom pottery dishes hard to load. Other than that they usually hold more plates tha n their domestic counterparts.

I hate most dishwashers. I got a new model Viking (not the Asko kind) because it had the features I wanted and racks that I like. They're big and solid so they look smaller than they are. I measured and they're actually not small. It's sitting in the kitchen doorway waiting for the counters to be done, so I don't know how I'll like it in action, though a few others here said they liked theirs. It's worth a look anyway.

I got the new Viking as well. I had an Asko prior to it and loved it. I believe the new Viking is basically an Asko from what I have heard. It comes very highly recommended.

You are right to be concerned about depth on the KitchenAid. I purchased a panel-ready KA in August, and was not pleased to discover that it is 24.5" deep before adding a 3/4" panel. My own fault for not checking, but I just assumed that a panel-ready DW would be standard depth. Not so! We talked about removing the drywall behind the DW, but even that wasn't going to be enough to have the DW sit flush with the cabinetry. We ended up selling the KA and getting a Miele, which I really love. It's a full 2" shallower and a bit smaller inside, but the racks are so much better designed that I think it holds just as much. Maybe fewer glasses on the top rack, but it's not really a big deal. It looks great with the panel that sits flush with the cabinetry. Good luck with your decision!

Thanks for all the info--I'll look at the Viking and also the Miele--which model would you all recommend?

Sorry about your experience with the KA not fitting--I guess it just confirms my suspicion that if I want that true integrated look I need to go elsewhere...

I have the Viking DFB450 in my garage waiting for install. It has come highly recommended to me by my long time appliance sales rep. Hope this helps.

we have a miele and it's great. i can fit anything in it. the special dedicated silverware rack (way up top) leaves the other two racks with much more space for large pots/pans/sheets/bowls/platters. the height of the racks is adjustable too. and of course, we have a panel on ours. it looks great and we couldn't be happier!

aboc, which model do you have? Most here (just spent 2hrs reading old posts--ack!) seem to like the Optima and the Excella. I do have one of those Miele brochures but found it confusing to tell exactly what the differences were between each model--even within each model level there seemed to be different options...Anyway, it's back on the list!

We have the Optima. DH did all the research but I just asked him and he said he remembers the Excella has the controls on the front while ours has the controls on the top so that everything is hidden. I have to admit that at first I was skeptical of spending so much on a dishwasher but it really is better than anything else I've used (DH before he was DH had a Bosch and he is way in love with the Miele too). It's quiet, cleans like nobody's business and is really easy to use.

Our Excella is integrated with custom panel and has the controls hidden on the top. The major difference between the Optima & Excella is that the Excella has more cycles.

ditto what giazmo said.

in a nutshell diff btw Miele's are as you move up the model range and price scale you get more flexible rack configurations, more sound insulation on the outside of the unit, and more wash programs. The largest internal change is that the upper range models add a water softener, otherwise the internals are all the same.

so.............you should choose based on which unit has the cycles you want to use.

I found the top silverware drawer on the Miele kind of a drag. Rather than throwing silverware in a bin, you have to place each individual fork or knife in a slot, don't you? Is there anyway you can just throw them into a more empty tray?

I am ordering a KitchenAid. I am pulling my cabinets a inch or so away from the wall so I can still get that flush look. It will give me a deeper counter which is ok with me.

I can get an employee discount so that is why I went with KA over Miele/Bosch. The topline KA was 1/2 the price as the others for me.

We bought the Kitchen Aid Panel ready DW and installed it 2 months ago. It fit like a dream. Nothing needed to be done at all.

I was a bit worried when people posted that they don't fit - but mine did - with regular standard cabinetry. Go figure.

maven - it's not an absolute that you neatly organize the cutlery in the Miele top rack. Some throw it in willy nilly and get good results. If you choose that route and don't you'll have no recourse.

This is kinda a bellweather for a Miele, most either love or hat the cutlery rack, very few fall in the middle. You might find it curious that they had the Patent for this feature for years. It just expired and guess who's got a cutlery rack now? Kitchen Aid, Bosch and I'm sure others will follow. Can't be a gimmick if so many follow. It's not the cat' meow for everyone. Choice is good and just like other manuf. Miele offered/offers a regular basket for those that want Miele's quality and or features but are not on board with the tray.

ice - I don't think you have a "fully integrated" install. That or you cabinets are not standard cabinetry. In the U.S. market "standard" cabinet carcass depth is 24" Add to that a door/drawer front that is a "standard" 3/4" and you have 24 3/4" or 25" typically after site conditions or gaskets/bumpers that are added btw the doors/and carcass. Now KA's dishwasher bodies are 24 1/2" or 24 7/8" deep unless something changed recently so you can quickly do the math and see that in "typical" cabinetry a KA unit will be proud of the adjacent faces by 1/2" when a panel is applied.

"Panel Ready" is not the same thing a fully integrated. A fully integrated DW cannot be distinguished from a 24"/60c base cabinet until you open it's door. If toekick, trim, a light, button ect. is showing or all the surfaces adjacent to it are not in the same plane it's technically not fully integrated. This is all a hyper technical point, but for those that want a true, fully integrated look , close will not suffice. Kitchen Aid DW's are quite difficult to install in this manner. Additionally they do not support the panel weight of some European DW competition, further limiting their installation.

Thanks for that post Antss--I was liking the KA because it seemed to have good reviews and a lot of features for less money, but I really do want that "where the heck is the DW?" look. I am having custom cabinets made, so I suppose he could work it all out, but may just be easier to go European.

My MIL has an Asko she likes, and I had been looking at Bosch (now a bit scared off by all the recent complaints about lower quality)--now I am looking at Miele, but probably just the Inspira--I have a whole house water softener, so don't really need it in the DW--and I don't really use any settings besides normal and heavy duty.

Only thing I think I might miss is the upgraded rack configuration (is it really that different or better?) and split tray, but not for that much money...

the split top tray is not that great a feature in my opinion, he idea is you remove part of it to accept a taller item underneath it like a champagne flute ect..

easier to just lower the middle rack or put that stuff in the bottom.

The upgraded racks are available on the lower models, you just have to order them for the additional cost. They are more flexible and have more folding tines that allow for easier palcement of large bowls, pans and trays. Also better stem holders. They are worth the xtra dough to me , but take a few of your dishes to a dealer and see what works best for you.

Euros are more easily fuly integrated unless the only thing a cabinetmaker does is fully integrate Kitchen Aids , then you'd be taking him out of his "norm". Doubt there any places like this though.

I'm in the same position as you, honeychurch - including having 3 growing boys :-) After much research on this site and others, I'm going with the Miele Optima. We're getting inset cabinets and I want the DW to be truly flush. I took a set of my everyday (rather thick) dishes to the store to see how they fit - not a problem. Wish I had brought a few pots and pans, too. They never show the DW loaded with those in the brochures - just 14 place settings, lol!

oops - I guess we were wrong about the difference between Optima v Excellence. Thanks for the clarification everyone! Either way we are happy with the Optima. We plan to order some extra racks later - may sound gimmicky but the stem holders for wine glasses and the vase holder we have are both really useful. And on the cutlery rack issue I love it. It's not too much of a pain to load them in one by one and there is plenty of space to lay a Tbsp or a tupperware lid in there face down so water doesn't pool. That kind of flexibility and the extra room on the bottom rack make me a fan!

Again, our KA Dishwasher is fully INTEGRATED. Friends are shocked when I open it and they see it's a dishwasher not a cabinet. It fit perfect with stock cabinets. Really.

We have the toe-kick running the whole length too.

Panel weight is easily adjusted as well.

I really love the KA dishwasher and if you are having custom cabinets made - it should be no problem either.

ice - after 16lbs - those door springs are not adjustable at all. A lot of MDF doors or those clad in stainless from cabinet makers easily weigh more than this. It'd really suck to find this out AFTER you bought one or had it installed in your kitchen.

How deep are your cabinets?

KA's WILL work, especially with some planning and field work. They just are not as easily adaptable for full integration over a broad range of styles and circumstances as their Euro competitors. This is not my opinion.

If anyone can help me, I'd really appreciate it! I just purchased a Kenmore Elite HE dishwasher (model 6651318K802) and no one can instruct me as to how I can attach a custom panel of my cabinetry to the front of the dishwasher! There is apparently a trim kit that is needed, but the only kits I have found for this model come in white, black or bisque - and my dishwasher is stainless (though, does this even matter if I am applying the custom panel?). Do I even need a trim kit as this dishwasher supposedly "accepts custom panels"? I have the panel of my cabinetry but no instructions for installing it. Thanks- I really need help!!

what does the owners manual and or install manual say for that model. Sears's website is notorious for lacking info.

There is no info in either - and no one at Sears can help me (I have spoken to 14 different people, over many hours!). The closest I have gotten is someone who pointed me to the aforementioned trim kit- but no one can offer any details about what said trim kit includes... I'm wondering if anyone else has applied a custom cabinet panel to a Kenmore dishwasher, and if so, how they did it! My dishwasher is fully integrated (i.e the controls are all inside the unit), so I know it can be done. I'd be curious to hear how other dishwashers are outfitted with custom panels - for example, the Kitchen Aid that was mentioned in earlier posts. Was a separate trim kit required?

" My dishwasher is fully integrated (i.e the controls are all inside the unit), so I know it can be done."

This may not be exactly the case, some " integrated "models do not accept custom panels.

You are knocking on the wrong door at Sears for a fully integrated solution. That' s the big leagues and Sears ain't that. Cash and carry is their bread and butter. Design is something they watch on TV ................, "I just love that Ty fella , don't you ?"

Here is a link that might be useful: Try this place

We have this Miele Optima dishwasher:

http://www.miele.com/usa/dishwashers/product.asp?cat=2&model=505&series=120&nav=20&snav=70&tnav=73&oT=125

It is very quiet. It has the built-in water softener, which I know you don't need, but you can turn it off from what I understand (we use ours). May seem like a waste for you, but it is still well within your budget.

It holds quite a bit. The bottom racks can be modified so you can play around with the configuration to find what best suits your dishes.

We had an old Maytag before this one and I think it did hold slightly more, but not much. I really like the cutlery tray (it really only takes a second to put the silverware in there) and I would buy this dishwasher again in a second. The dishes really do turn out beautifully.

Oh, and it is fully integrated. Looks perfectly flush with our inset cabinets.

Good luck!