Tex,

I'm around today...no children, unless you count my labrador retriever...but he didn't even send me a father's day card.

The 1x6 ipe is more prone to cupping. That's the concave situation that your decking is experiencing. When Ipe is out in that hot Texas sun, it's gonna want to cup, and those ebty biskits are gonna oblige...especially after the Ipe shrinks a bit and them biskits don't have much of a hold on em anymore. You probably don't want to hear this, but it's gonna spread to the other deck to, as it's boards start to shrink, and the get free of the biskits.

so you want to know whose fault it is...I don't know.
There's a problem that's inherent with these hidden fastener systems. Ipe wants to shrink, and move around, and the best way to tame Ipe is by screwing it down. Ebty can't tame Ipe.

Who decided on ebty hidden fasteners? that person is responsible. my opinion.

steve

Hmmmmmm upper deck ok, lower deck cupping, Lack of Ventalation on the lower one?

If the contractor bid 5/4 material on both decks you have a really strong case. Its probley not the ipe's fault if the material is in fact ipe. Ipe wants to lay flat however if not fastened in a secure uniform way, and not having cross ventalation, it reacts the way any wood will.

On a scale 1-10 with 1 being very little problems,the clip system is right around a 9+ as a fastening choice.

I started DeckMasters back in 82, in all that time I have taken one Wallet to court. I did win but the judge split the money even with the lady that did the plans testifiing on my side. Point being the Contractor starts out with the Judge against him... bacause it is up to the Contractor to make everything clear to the Wallet,do everything he said he would,and generaly be responsible for every single thing because he knows what he's doing and the Wallet dosent. Most of the time the Contractor gets the thumbs down in Court in one way or the other. If the man contracted 5/4 on both decks he wont have a chance in Court.

I dont know Steve from what I have seen the thicker the wood the more movement. J

J,

there could be a ventilation issue with the lower deck...but I still maintain that 5/4 material is more stable. By next week, it'll also shrink and pull away from the biskits just like the lower deck...It doesn't really matter what dimension the Ipe comes in, it'll react to the sun. If you don't fasten it down right, things will go wrong.

steve

Tex,

Hidden fasteners usually get trashed here, but there have been some happy customers. You can re-use the Ipe if the cupping isn't too bad...the cupping may lessen over time...or you can possibly turn the boards over. Face screw the boards down this time. Either plug the screw holes, or use headcote trim screws.

I've done alot of work in New Canaan, and I built a treehouse in Greenwich. I'm pretty busy right now, though...booked into september.

steve

Tex,

If you decided to use those ebty's then you should accept the responsibility of their failure & not blame the contractor for ipe doing what ipe does, imo. At the same time I think he was a fool to take a job using those darn things anyway, they don't work.

When I worked at Austin Wholesale every time I went to look at a ipe deck that had cupping problems it was with 1x6 not 5/4x6. Most of the time the failure was due to improper installation, screws 1 1/2" from the edge or no ventilation tho.

Al

Hey, I'm just a homeowner, not a professional contractor. Using the hidden fastener system wasn't my idea - it was the proposal of the deck contractor. I went and looked at decks he'd done with the same system. I read here and on the websites of Advantage Lumber and other suppliers about the clips. Then we signed. And here we are with a mess.

The supplier main guy who deals with IPE is out of town until Monday, so we are in a holding pattern until then.

Okay, yesterday the lumber specialist from the supplier (and his general manager) both came out. They took one look at the lower deck and asked why two different installation techniques were used (the edge boards were face fastened and the rest was ebty clips). I said, hey I'm the homeowner not the contractor... Then he said that without a face fastener the IPE was going to want to curl because not enough ventilation underndeath (too low to the ground). He said the ebtys are not strong enough under this situation. When the contractor arrived, he repeated all this, and told him to try screwing down a section of boards and see how it flattens. He said it wasn't curling very much compared to some others they'd been called out to see (also incorrect installations) and that it was worth a shot.

Well, this morning that is what happened. Tried screwing down some of the boards. The guy who did it was optimistic before he started, but when he finished said it didn't seem to do anything. I called the lumber guy from the supplier, and he said wait 24 hours before giving up. But he also said it may not work (duh)....

So now we are in a pickle. We've paid 85% of the contract (for both decks, benches, et al), but now it is looking like we will have to rip out the lower deck and do it over.

Any advice, suggestions, appreciated. Obviouisly, hindsight is 20/20. Wish we'd known about this problem beforehand. I'd have much rather be looking at face screws than cupping and protruding ebty clips...

Could you post some pictures?

Wating 24 hr just got the guy out the door he had to come up with something.

Too low to the ground,not enough vintalation, clips clips clips ghessss seems like people would learn. Of course the clip folks could include a little of this in the marketing but nooooooooooo, its the same with composite the fine print includes both of those topics in very fine print like mico fine.

Tex my man you could try runing some fans under that deck for a couple of days this should have been done before the man ran the screws in because the clips are keeping the ipe from reacting to the screw preasure.

Always Always Always provide cross vintalation on any decking project using any material. Dont use the Clips!!

Idea>>> the decking is going to have to come up, back out the screws,or at least the ones that will back out, get the material off the frame, burn the clips it will make you feel better. Sticker up the decking and run fans thru the pile ipe wants to lay flat so mabey some of them will in a few days with air moving around your decking. Sort out the ones you can use,buy some more,fase fasten your lower deck and provide Cross Vintalation,if you dont there is a good chance the new stuff is gunna do the same thing.

I should write an article on this for one of the deck mags,but of course, they advertise the clips. J

Tex,

I live over in Glastonbury, sorry to hear about your predicament. I am no deck expert, but I would start rattling the cages of State dept. of Consumer Protection and small claims court.

We had roofing problems, contrcator jerked me around for 2 years, finally sued, only costed $35, he resolved the issue before going to court. CT has a guaranty fund that pays up to $5k,,, if you do happen to prevail, in small claims. Also, when filing with the State, complaints are left on a contractors record for 3 years, for all to see on the internet or via requesting in person. believe me, some contractors do pay attention, and will try to resolve the issue.

good luck

very frustrating

So, if you use SS screws instead of clips, how far from the edges should you place the screws? The more I read on the forum the more confused I get on which thickness I should use with Ipe. But which ever one I do use I want to make sure I place the screws in the best location. I will be using 6" boards and I the desk will be off the groud 1.5'- 3' for good ventilation.

Thanks for all your additional comments. Hopefully, we can get the contractor to agree that he needs to redo the lower deck. If he walks away, then unfortunately we'll have to go the small claims court route to try to recover the $$ we'd need to have the lower deck done properly by someone like Steve. We do have, in the contractor's presence, the lumber specialist and general manager from the IPE source having said that the wrong installation process was used. Whether that would increase the likelihood of the contractor settling out of court I wouldn't know, since I've never been in the position of suing a contractor.... The contractor was the one recommending the hidden clips, not the homeowners....

Should we have him try to back out the screws even if he isn't going to rip out the deck right now?

I don't know how to post pictures on this site, or I'd be happy to let y'all see what this looks like..... Steve and John and the other deck experts can probably guess...

ghesss thats a bad deal,Im still going back to the 5/4 thing if he bid both decks using it.

Its all up to the Contractor now,He can be stand up or run away. This is a really good time for him to make some Major points, sure it will cost a few bucks but man if he fixes that project even if he is not compltley at fualt you are going to tell a few folks about it. This can actually turn into a very good thing for him the man could be an angies list star. J

That's true John, as a contractor sometimes you have to admit you made a mistake & correct it. Nothing sells like a great recommendation from a friend.

Al

Well, we aren't sure yet what he is going to say. I left him a message, requesting a meeting with my husband this weekend, but haven't heard back from him. If he tries to walk away, that might be a problem for him, as he put in the contract that we both agree to binding arbitration by the BBB if there is a problem.

Ideally what needs to be done is to redo the framing to try to get some ventilation under that lower deck, right? This contractor totally redid the framing for the lower deck (charged a bundle for it), but not correctly according the the lumber company guy. And then get new IPE and face fasten it.... Not even sure how to figure out what that would cost, as a proportion of the original contract cost....

Another question: we were originally told that the hidden fasteners were more time consuming to install (compared with face fastening). Does that mean we paid more for something that was less likely to work properly? AAGGGGGGHHHHHHHH....

Thanks again. Y'all are great.

Sorry Tex ,dont shoot the mesanger!! you did in fact pay more for a system that is very most likely not to work properly. I agree AAGGGGGGGHHHHHHH, good ol Charlie Brown. J

Okay. Our contractor is meeting with us tomorrow morning. I'm trying to be ready with some of the costs. I measured the lower deck, and it is about 355 square feet. I called Advantage Lumber and talked to Don, who said with poor ventilation we want heavier and skinnier IPE - i.e. he was recommending 5/4 x 4 boards. He said to get the lineal feet I would divide by 0.4583, which would give me 775 lineal feet.

Don also said they need to excavate to provide cross ventilation under the deck. He said dig out the dirt to provide at least a foot where air can get under and through.

Any comments? Is the calculation of lineal feet accurate?
Is 5/4 x 4 what y'all would recommend? Part of the lower deck framing is sitting right on top of remnants of an old concrete patio. They only removed about half of the concrete when they redid the framing. Am I right in assuming that he should have removed all the concrete as well as excavating dirt before he redid the framing?

I have used 1x6 ipe really close to the ground with no problems.I am not knowing the grade of your project but most of the time digging out around the deck reqires changing the grade of the whole area around it. Not doing this installes a treanch.. not good.

A slab below a deck will hold water.

I dont see thicker lumber with smaller width helping a whole lot other then the shorter width would show the cupping less.

Cross Ventalation 101, ghessssss how many times have I done this...>>>Air in Air out,convection currents moving under your deck and out again. This can be done with a really low deck by driling holes in the rim joist say 1 1/2'' holes. If all the joists are landing right next to the dirt and the crumbling slab drill holes thru all of them. Corectley placed floor vents installed in the decking can provide the exit for the air.Of course if the grade of the project agrees with diging out around the deck thus leaving air movement all around it that would work too. J

Well, guess what happened? The contractor didn't show up this morning. Just checked my email, and he sent an email 45 minutes before our scheduled meeting, saying that he "through out his back" and couldn't come this morning.

John, are you talking about holes in all of the boards that run perpendicular to the ground? Near the ground or near the decking or what?

I'm not very good at this, but I'm trying to learn..... Want to try to make sure we know what should be done, before we get to the redo of the deck....

It depends on the grade of the project if the grade is completly flat and the frame is right on the ground all the way around then each bay of joists has to be ventalated. If just one area is flat to the ground and the grade has some fall in it making a raised area in frount then vents in frount and floor vents in the decking on the lower area will do it.

Hang in there Tex. J

John,
Thanks for the additional information. Contractor is still apparantly out with back trouble, or at least hasn't contacted us to arrange a make-up time for our meeting.

We know we have to give him the chance to fix the deck, but we aren't sure that he'll make good on his contract, or even if he would do a better job the second time around.... If he walks away from the project, how do we find someone who knows how to build these decks properly who works in southern Fairfield County, CT? We think we can live with the upper deck, but the lower one needs to be completely redone. I know we'd have to wait until the fall, because anyone any good is already going to be booked into September, but how do we find someone? We certainly didn't too very well the first time around....

Tex, go to one of your local lumber yards (not home cheapo) that carries decking material, and ask them for some deck installer referrals. They know all the decking outfits and can probably give you a few good people to talk to.

Tex --

I also live in Fairfield, CT....and I am in the process of getting some bids for an IPE deck.

I only have one bid so far. It was the guy who did my cedar privacy fence. He did a nice job....but his estimate for the IPE deck seems a bit high.
So now we are getting some additional bids to compare.

If I come along any (seemingly) reputable builders, I'll pass them along.

Also, who did you use?

Thanks....and good luck with your situation....I've been following your posts here in the forum.

We got the initial referral for our deck contractor from the deck people at one of the local places that sells IPE (not Home Depot). I then talked to two of his references, and looked at one of his IPE decks.

I hadn't even thought of talking to the guy who did our fence back in 2001. He did a nice job, and I just found his phone number in my Palm, which is surprising.... Guess i'll call him and see if he knows someone who is good with IPE.

Deck guy finally came and met with us this morning. He sounds like he wants to fix the lower deck, but it isn't clear that he knows what to do. We've got him to see that he needs to raise the deck up off the ground, so there is some room for cross-ventilation. (As an aside, this deck gets full sun exposure, which is great for us but not so great for any wood sitting there).... We suggested, when he wasn't really coming up with anything, raising the deck up the equivalent of one step, and then adding that step back by the pool, and also pulling the deck back away from the pool. So there are still problems:
1. he says he doesn't want to go with face fasteners/IPE plug combination, because it won't let the wood move - but then he says he wants to fasten the IPE by running a bead of PL400 (some kind of glue??) and then just use a trim gun to kind of keep the wood in place while the glue is drying??? Somehow, I just don't get why this would be better than face fastening...
2. he did at one point mention something that sounded like John's floor vents - that he had used before somewhere else - which begs the question of why in the world he didn't put those vents in this framing that he had sitting right on the ground..... aaggghhhhhh
3. if we go with step down to the pool, then is there some kind of vent we can put in the facing that goes from the horizontal part of the step to the 'ground', to get ventilation that direction? sorry I don't know the technical terms for the parts of the step....
4. since we are doing this over, we should get the ventilation right - have cross-ventilation, shouldn't we? we had to push him for that. and shouldn't we go with face fastening/IPE plugs rather than gluing???
5. he wants to go with 1x4 instead of 1x6 boards, but I said that wouldn't decrease any cupping, but just make it harder to see any cupping... (we are talking about new wood as we can't reuse anything down there now.... zapped by the combination of no cross-ventilation, hot sun and EBTY clips not holding....

Comments are welcome. He's coming back to me on Wednesday with his proposal for what he wants to do.... I would like to know what we should tell him is okay and what is not....

Sure wish one of you guys were closer to Fairfield County, CT.... Then I could really find out exactly what we should do....

I like the 1X4 boards, I believe the smaller the board, the less cupping. How much can a 1X1 board cup? If you don't believe that, the fact that cupping is less noticeable on a narrower board should be enough. Who cares if it cups if you don't notice it? I also think the 1X4 looks as good or better as 1X6 - he obviously wants to fix the problem, 1X4 is a lot more work.

PL400 is a construction adhesive for decks. I used it, with face screwing, but I would NEVER fasten a deck with a nailer of any kind, not even a framing nailer. But, a finish nailer?.....

Face screw, but you already know that.

Tex,

Just tell him to face screw and plug...and be done with it. wood shrinks/expands, and screwing it down won't inhibit that. wood also cups, bows and warps...and you do want to keep it from doing that...screw the boards down.

If he tries to fasten with trim (16 gauge? 18 gauge?), and pl 400 (I only use pl premium outside)...well, you aren't gonna like the results.

steve

I aggre with both these guys. If you will be happy with 1x4 decking it is more work and reqires more fasteners, it seems like the guy is trying. That trim nail/ipe thing got some major coverage on this ol house,looks like its still going on and I do know one Deck Contractor who offeres it as an ecno choice. If the man has never done it he will find its really hard on the gun spare parts on the job is a must as well as having a back up tool and a big compreser.
Dont Do It.

1X4 ipe will show any cupping less than 1x6 ipe. With the right Cross Ventalation that differance wont matter. Floor Vents, the same as used inside your house,go look at them at one of the box stores, solid brass units are around $30 they measure 2'' x 10'' no need to install them in the frame they can be cut into the decking after install. I remove the controls/install the face.

In the areas of the deck that allow it place screen vents,like soffit vents in the overhang of your roof, in the skirting. Air in Air out

I have projects out using 1x6 T&G ipe,the worst for cupping done with a band install,8'' above the ground buting up to the building on two sides. The first two weeks or so the floor vents dripped water thats how well cross ventalation works. A person can speed that up by running fans thru the frame after the floor vents are in and before any skirting is in place.

Face.... Fasten...Ipe.... with ss screws.I always use adhesive when installing ipe for several reasons. John

Explain about why you use adhesive when installing IPE. You face fasten with stainless steel screws, after the adhesive? Which adhesive?

We will stand firm with the face fastening.... Have to work out the cross ventilation, but sounds like there are things we can do, once we understand how. We weren't keen on the trim nail/adhesive combo anyway.....

Adhesive will add a bit of overall strength, but it also gives a bed for the boards to lay on, reducing squeaks and cracks when you walk on it. John also says it puts a barrier to direct contact between the deck boards and ipe, which inhibits the pressure treated lumber from sucking moisture out of the ipe.

For a fact, the 1x6 cups more then 5/4 x 6. I'm not sure why, but I have a lot of scraps of both and the 5/4 doesn't seem to cup very much, while the 1x does.

I have used all of the above mentioned ways of fastening.

I currently use the Headcote SS screws with out plugs. No complaint and hardly noticeble.

At one time we did use the PL400 with 15ga. finish nails. The one difference was that we did screw the ends down. This was a satisfactory installion at the time we were using this method. I hesitate to use it now because I feel the ipe is not as good now as then. There seems to be a lot more movement now.

We used the ipe clips once and though it initially looked great, there was some movement later on that I was not happy with. I think if the ends were face screwed, it probably would be satisfactory, but that kind of defeats the purpose of using ipe clips.