Is the refrigerator really 18 feet from the sink and range, not including walking around the edge of the island? Or is there another one I am not seeing somewhere?

Palimpsest, thanks for your input. The fridge is actually 13 feet away from the range, however, we are looking at putting drawers in the island because it IS 18 feet to the cleanup sink.
Also, I forgot to put in the latest plan, I'm thinking another sink next to the freezer. I was in a little anxious and didn't spec out everything as I'm thinking about now. I want a lowered 30" deep counter next to the oven for a rolling area.
What are your thoughts, good or bad?

First, I say that I love the challenging Pirate Speak. Or nondescript 17th century phrasing. Whatever.

"What say you?"

I love it! By the way, Talk Like a Pirate Day is September 19th.

I believe this to be an entirely new house, my good lady! I must declare the diagonal lines vex me greatly. Could you be persuaded to zoom in on the kitchen itself, without the rest of the house?

Ack, I tried to make that last sentence sound more 17th century-ish, but I just failed miserably.

ok, i remember this kitchen... had lots of glass fronted cabs where stove is now... have big family that comes for holidays etc and helps. have a connection somewhere around corner of island that needs to stay - the water line?

you moved dh's sofa! and have moved the island too close to the stove run. Can you move the stove a bit toward the sink end and put the fridge on the end of that run? by the little end of the island? which has ended up way too close to that run. putting the fridge there was up for option way back when - or maybe that's where it was originally? maybe there was a good reason not to have it on that run - but i don't remember.

and do you need that big of a pantry? don't you need the room it was? part of it was anyway - I don't remember what room it was before.

i think putting a sink in the pantry room with the oven might work as a baking 'room'. will you need a mw in there? if you put fridge in kit part you could put drawers in there with stuff used for baking.

I was wondering about you just a few days ago and if you ever got your kitchen redone. unless i have you mixed up with someone else - but i don't think so!

how'd your thread get way back on p3?

btt!

I'd see if you could contact Cotehele and get her to comment on your 'baking room,' since she has one and might be a good advisor.

Meanwhile, DesertSteph did a good job in catching the island move. Not good. Also, now the fridge is farther from the stove, which is not good either, since it was already far. Maybe that's OK if you want to spend for and add fridge drawers. Then you have to think about the fridge location for those who will use it most and where it needs to be.

If you're going to use that room as pantry and a baking room, I agree with Steph that it needs a sink. Also, I would think about delineating baking area and pantry, perhaps? And also realize that a pantry is usually best kept cool, but it won't be cool with an oven in it...

Sorry susied3, I have nothing helpful for you. Your kitchen seems complicated and I am no layout guru. I just wanted to say...
Adrienne2011 - you're funny and I've marked September 19 on my calendar, I hope you're not kidding.

LOL I must be watching too many pirate movies with the grandkids.

desertsteph, yep, same kitchen, same issues, if DH worked a little faster I wouldn't have so many opportunities to change my mind. But, I do have to say, the cabinet people have had more to do with that than anything.

Re, the island, I didn't even realize I had moved it. I think I moved it over while working on the other part and forgot to move it back. I've been reworking it since you pointed it out.

I didn't move the fridge, it should still be in the same place, I'm checking on that to see why it appears to be farther.

Rhome, what do you think of the "idea"? It's basically the same as when we put the pantry off the family room, just opened it up toward kitchen. What I DO like about it is the fact that the oven faces in with the ability to have a rolling area next to it. DH nearly had a heart attack when I told him there would need to be another sink, however, other than the expense of the sink itself, it will be easily installed with the plumbing from the old washer in the same area as the new sink. I was thinking of putting it next to the freezer on that side to cut down on more work.

I'm very frustrated with my design program, even though I don't change any walls, things seem to move, I still can't figure out why the fridge appears farther in this last plan. We are in a timeframe now, want to have it done by Thanksgiving.

I don't want to end up with a dysfunctional, hodgepodge of a kitchen. Sunday I was just so frustrated from all the obstacles that were UNEXPECTED that I was ready to just put new counters on the existing, put the floor in, and move on. But, DH stays on course.

Rhome, does the oven seem to be "IN" the pantry where it is down on the end of the wall? I had envisioned it as being out of the pantry, accross from the fridge.

Here is a 3D rendering of what it resembles.

So do you mean not to use the pantry as baking space? Or do you just mean you think it's out toward the open enough to not cause a heat problem? That could very possibly be correct.

Some kitchens are smaller than your latest pantry. ;-) I do think this seems all a bit disjointed. The plan posted at the top was already a little unusual, and this to me, sorry to say, looks a bit odd. You're cutting up the overall space more, necessitating more circuitous routes through the house and to get to things, it seems. I think it may be, additionally, visually odd to have the fridge wall longer than the oven wall, but I'm not positive about that.

But, I stand by my first advice to consult with Cotehele. I think that it'd be quite different to talk to someone who has experience with an oven placed separately like that.

Susied3, I have not followed any of your previous layouts. It is very challenging, and yes frustrating and discouraging, to intuitively know the perfect layout is out there yet you just can't see it.

I am not clear about the use for the little room with lots of counter space. Used as a butlers pantry or baking area, a sink would make all the difference in the functionality of the space. Even if the primary dishwashing is in the kitchen area, a sink is used as landing space for all the dirty bowls and utensils when one is baking.

If I understand correctly, you are asking about the location of the refrigerator and ovens. I woud swap the refrigerator and oven. This is why . . .

13 ft. is too far between refrigerator and the main work area of the kitchen. Putting the fridge on the wall connecting the pantry/baking area and the kitchen will bring it much closer...MUCH more convenient. The refrigerator could be turned 90 degrees (toward the kitchen). It is daily meals, etc. that will take you back and forth to the fridge. It would be only slightly inconvenient when baking.

But, there is a huge advantage to moving the oven to the opposite wall. The oven and its contents are visible from the kitchen proper. You can easily keep an eye on what is baking. My ovens are in this position, although they are in a separate room they are not functionally out of the kitchen. 90% of the prep and cooking is done in this corner of the kitchen where the ovens are in sight.

Hope that helps.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bakery Pictures

ah-ha! She did have some very valuable input on the baking 'room' set up! super. that should help you a lot susie.

I think it makes so much sense. you can eyeball the ovens but still have them over there by the counter in the 'pantry' room for the mixing and it'll be a landing space for things coming out of it/them. it can also be a place for things to cool out of the way of regular traffic. THink about how much counter space you'll have to bake/cool cookies at the holiday! lol! and the fridge will still be out of the way of your regular cooking for when the dh and kids (grown I know) are milling around getting cold drinks or snack stuff they need (want).

maybe a dish drawer in there for the dirty baking bowls, utensils, pans?

someone can be over there in charge of baking while you're manning the regular stove/dinner cooking.

just need to get the spacing set so there's enough room around the island and between island and fridge (but not too much there).

Sorry, I haven't seen any of your previous layouts, so I don't want to sound harsh.

It seems that your kitchen layout is being dictated by that window over the sink. You have acres of room for a very big kitchen and yet your refrigerator is in a really bad location for actual cooking.

That giant pantry doesn't help you. Actually your first layout is better than the second. If you are looking to have an open kitchen, family room, dining area, you may want to consider locating the kitchen, in its entirety, where you have the giant pantry.

If you do that, you can orient the kitchen facing your family room, and your breakfast room, making easy access both sides with a very large island facing one or the other.

Minimum space between large range and counter should be 48" but 60" would be better to let someone get by.

The previously existing walls have all been destroyed right? Put your existing ref where you are proposing the ref to be and the freezer where it will go. (even if you have to borrow a heavy duty extension cord). Check it out.

Island where island was, range moved down the wall for a new ref - even a 24" wide one, pantry where pantry originally was but extra ref is moved to be beside frzr in pantry. Bonus space is a bakery with sink and possibly a small dw (like an 18" one, possibly with the top rack removed) if baking happens often. No ref there - you could possibly consider ref-drawers or a beverage ref to double-up the use of this area as beer/wine/soda storage. Becomes the family bar/dessert bar when not a bakery.

The small lowered area is a slightly different config. Saves about a foot in island length.

Bmore's plan, is, of course, fantastic. But I think, Susied3, that waaaay back there was a reason you wouldn't let us move the range? If that's at all possible, this plan would serve you so well, and has so many pluses over the others. It might be worth checking out the expense of overcoming whatever was keeping you from moving the range? This really is such a major project with major expenses involved, it'd be sad to have it be less when 'fantastic' is possible. ;)

Cotehele, I LOVE LOVE LOVE your kitchen! Wish I could get a layout as beautiful as yours. It's wonderful.

Bmore, I do like the layout you have done. It does seem more functional, and I know that you, Rhome, Lastax, desertsteph, Buehl, Pllog, Roccogirl,and others who I can't remember to acknowledge right now, have ALWAYS seen the fridge best at the end of that wall where the range is. If there was ANY way to do it, that is what we would do. I guess I could hash it out with DH again, I've tried to convince him, but the whole point was to keep my current cabinets and since they are all one piece, he says it would destroy them to try and cut them and reuse. So, then we are looking at thousands more for cabinets that we really don't need to replace.

There is also a fireplace chimney behind those uppers which he said he didn't know if he could get a vent through where it needs to go for the hood.

All that being said, the gas has been run, and the potfiller set with water to it, where it is placed in the plan as it is now. So, convincing him to redo it, well, bless his heart, he would.

The other option is this.... the range sits with a planned 9"spice cabinet to the left, and 36" more to the end of the wall for cabinets which I planned to put drawers. From the 9" spice cabinet to the back wall, there is 15 1/2 feet.
So, my question would be, if we built the wall out (range wall) another two feet to accomodate fridge, would that crowd the dining area too much?

Felixnot, don't worry about sounding harsh! I'm here to take constructive criticism and advice so all is welcome! We had entertained your idea early on, and, well, quite frankly, I can't remember why it didn't go. :)

Rhome, it seems more disjointed? I guess what I saw was entering the pantry area from where the fridge and oven was more convenient, access to dining area, kitchen, it seemed to flow in to the kitchen rather than going around to get to the pantry area. hmmm. And the oven and refrigerator were at the end, so the pantry seemed out of the way. I could put one of those cool "secret doors" if that would help any. :)

Tell me honestly... Would you nix the entire idea of having that large of a pantry? It's just such WASTED space! I can't figure what to do with it! DANG!

But thanks for taking me through this, over and over and over!

Anything that closes up the passage to the dining room from the family room is going to be an issue. For me, its not that the pantry is so big as much as it becomes another complete kitchen instead of a pantry. And it does it at the expense of the nice dining area, wide enough passage for your crowd and making the ref far away.

I hear and have heard every time you say about those cabinets - we're not there, of course. I'm on the East Coast and people remove built-in-place stuff all the time and tact it intact down to the building recycling place. People who WANT built-in-place stuff go to the building recycling people, buy them and reinstall them. Like we will if they ever get a small corner cupboard that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

So, I don't understand why the men-folk are so gun shy of moving them. Have they tried one?

There is a point where I wonder how much extra money you're spending on trying to keep them. If you wonder what I mean - the 14 foot island of brand new cabinets and some really expensive counters is partly driven by where the range is located and where cleanup is located, which are dictated by the cabinets you're trying to save.

My range is located in front of a chimney. We took the ductwork to the side and then out an exterior wall. The duct run is less than ten feet long.

The pantry is as long as my entire kitchen. Unless you're going to give it a specific and very useful function, it seems like too much to be efficient or at all practical, especially for what it costs in the house design and flow, as Bmore has pointed out. Maybe I'm short-sighted and don't know how much you might can or cellar from your garden or wherever. Not that I wouldn't love to have that kind of storage...But it would be much more than pantry, and I'm still not sure I'd want the oven and main fridge in it. But I also agree that its size isn't the issue.

The walls for that pantry really do intrude on a freer flowing traffic pattern. Look at Bmore's plan or the first plan above compared to the pantry/baking room plan, and think of your loved ones moving from the family room to the dining table. Or multiple workers just moving around the kitchen in general. You'll see, I think, a bottleneck/pinch point at the corner of the island, especially when the island moves back where it belongs. The fridge and oven are now opening into a more confined area, which can create bottlenecks of their own. Probably not often, but not really necessary.

You asked if I'd want to give up having that big pantry. It's not like you have a small pantry in the other plan! 12 of my pantries could fit in the smaller pantries in the drawings above. ;-) I see what you mean about it being a longer walk to get into it, but you have so much storage in your work areas, I don't think accessing the pantry is going to be something you'll have to do often in the throes of cooking a meal. It might be more of a stockpile from which you resupply the kitchen cabinets. I used to have a pantry in the basement, and didn't feel it was a hassle, so if anything has to be 'out of the loop,' I'd rather it be the pantry than the fridge or ovens.

If you have to buy things like refrigerator drawers to make the old cabinets work, how much are you saving to use them? And maybe, as I understand Bmore to be saying, you could use part of them, and not lose as much as you think.

Well, I thank yall very much! This gave a lot to think about. I talked to DH, about the existing cabinets.... He and GC already took out a 24" baking sheet cabinet, and a 18" drawer cabinet to get the range as far down as possible without messing with the uppers. As much as they tried, they were destroyed because they are somehouw all incorporated in one piece.

So, we talked about it and decided to leave it like it is, similar to how Bmore has it, it is almost exact, rather the fridge and oven are both over on the opposite wall, and the range toward the end. We are going to do as you suggested Rhome, and keep the freezer with the Ref. Cabinet guy discouraged it because of the "cavelike" feel, but we think we can live with it.

What I DIDn't like, and the reason I started "playing" with it again is because of those darn water pipes. They HAVE to stay put, they are the main water supply to the house, which we had NO IDEA they were there until we started tearing down that wall several months ago.

So, when we move that wall back, (the one which backs up to the pantry) it moves the oven back as well, which is 3 feet. Looking at it, it didn't "feel" right, the oven three feet back. So, that is when I first asked on here about making it a corner oven, but there wasn't much feedback on how anyone thought it would "work", just how much room it would take up.

I'm going to post a 3D rendering just so yall can see what it looks like, and tell me what you think.

Thanks!

HOw close is the freezer to the wall to its left? If you have it so close that it makes that corner into a cave, I remember advising that you do something different with the storage on the wall with the Frig and freezer...so that it was reachable and filled the space, rather than leaving the corner counter.

I would put 24" deep cabs above the fridge and maybe make that a whole wall of cabs surrounding the frig/frzer set.

Thank you Rhome! What were you thinking about the corner beside the freezer? There's three feet to the left of it.

I'm posting a couple other plans using bmore's idea, but without moving the range. And, one other, leaving the wall forward where the cabinets are closer in to the kitchen. It does mean losing the freezer by the fridge, but DH thinks the freezer would be fine in the pantry area because it does have a AC vent inside, and the doorway will be left open about 4-6 feet (I think) which would give it plenty of circulation. We do already have an 18" icemaker which would have to go next to the fridge, but tha#1
t's all we use the freezer for on a daily basis.

#1

#2 This is the pantry the other way, just closed off. Don't think it's viable, but including it anyway.

#3 Corner oven

I'm a little confused. Bmore's whole plan was based on moving the range and fridge.

I have no problem with the freezer in the pantry, as long as you don't mind a heat producing appliance in there.

The wall sticking out toward the island is a lot of the problem with the baking room/pantry idea, so I am completely against that. Cutting the aisle at that corner to that tight is a big mistake, and will greatly affect the feel of the space and the traffic flow. The water line indication is 4 1/2 ft or more from the island in the top plan in the very first post. Now it's much closer. Where is it, and where does it need to stay?

First plan above...Fridge is 15-16 ft from the stove

#1...Fridge 18 ft from stove

#2 ...Fridge 22 ft from stove, although I like the access to the pantry

#3...Fridge 18 ft from stove, and I don't think the angle of the oven does you any favors...Just cuts into your counter space.

OK, sorry, I'm a real duffus. (doofus?) The plan in the first post is one that I imported off another program several months ago and it is not correct. I don't know why I didn't catch this because even the coloring is different. It was just easier switching back and forth between plans because working with just one was ever changing. SORRY.

When I went back and looked at the plan I made using bmore's idea, I had kept the range where it is and just extended the wall, then when I went to paste it here, it was so tight that I thought it would definitely send you all into orbit. :) (NOT that using the WRONG measurements isn't enough! AFTER all, this is your TIME!) Again, SORRY.

So #1 and #3 are correct. The water line is exactly 13 1/2 feet from line to range wall. I think that is what it shows. I may need to put an opaque block there, it's tricky, when I try to put the wall through it on the plan, it stops, so all you end up seeing is that circle and the wording.

Also, I have the island 4' wide, I can narrow it, and have 17" cabinets on the back side to store things, but I wondered that long an island, if narrowing it more would make it look like a noodle.

I'm going back to the last plan that everyone agreed was a good one and post it. I've forgotten what it even looked like. And, why I started thinking differently. Maybe because the water lines which were not there suddenly appeared? I just remembered that. (It's been a hard year)