I don't think I followed your earlier threads. But looking at your plan two things jump out at me as things I'd changes:

1. Lose the 12" cabinet toward the great room in favor of additional seating for two -- avoids the soldiers-in-a-row seating problem and will make your island wonderfully functional both for eating, and hanging out - conversation involves seeing one another's faces, you'll either be glad you allowed for it at the island or wish you had.

2. Move the trash from the left of the dishwasher to the right of the 36" sink cabinet. It will make *everything* easier. That area between the sink and the range will be an awesome prep spot because of its proximity to both water and the stove -- put a trash there and you'll make it perfect -- I would not like stepping past the person at the sink every time I needed to throw something away.

That's all I have for input. You're wise to do this ahead of finalizing things. Thick skin leads to great kitchens, IMO. :-)

This is one of those kitchens that needs just one more wall to work really well, or to have the two existing walls be longer. Everything is way too crowded into the corner. I don't suppose the window can be shifted to the left since you are still under construction? If not, I'd give up on symmetry here in favor of functionality and move the sink down to the left and get the trash on the right hand side and eliminate that 12" shelving entirely. If you have a mudroom, look at doing pantry shelving there and get rid of the pantry to have more room around the range. You need at least one 18" cabinet between the range and the corner cabinet, and you only have room for that if you split your pot and pan drawers or get rid of the pantry.

I don't think you need to move the sink...but maybe put the garbage on the right side of the sink, with a pull out between it and the lazy susan. Maybe a place for foils, wraps, etc. or pizza pans, baking sheets, etc. On the left of the dishwasher, maybe a stack of smaller drawers, without the 12" shelves, open to the dining room.

The idea of replacing the 12" shelves facing the family room sounds good, too. More stools might be more practical. Hope that helps :)

Thanks kris_ma, for your suggestions. The design of the island is totally up for grabs. I like the current one because it gives me a lot of storage that I'm losing by eliminating the wall cabinets on the sink wall, but I recognize that I should be seating at least 3 there. My KD suggested I wait until the room is framed before deciding on the final size and design of the island. I'll keep your suggestion in mind and I welcome more!

LWO, I had no idea I had "one of those" kitchens that needs another wall. What do you suggest? You bring up some good points I should have addressed. I can not make the range/refrigerator wall longer because that is the entrance to the great room from the garage/mudroom. Framing has not begun so I can add a wall and I can shift the window. The "mud room" I spoke of isn't large enough to accommodate a pantry. It's more of a wide hall with pegs and cubbies, and it's already going to be tight with my kids' shoes, coats, backpacks, etc. The 12" shelf is optional. It would face the dining room and I planned to put my phone, Bose radio, and cookbooks on it. I can find other places for all those if that doesn't work out. Love to hear more ideas.

Well, if framing hasn't begun, by all means move the window (and the sink too) down! I would move the 18" trash over to the right of the sink and move the window over 18" to be able to keep the window centered. Eliminate the 12" shelving cabinet in favor of a 12" pullout dedicated to cleaning supplies or two liter sodas or whatever tall and awkward items you have that need storage. That will move the DW to the left enough that it clears the island better when open. Since that cabinet run goes into the DR, you could also continue it as a china cabinet and buffet space and you might not need a pantry at all.

Or you could also look at putting the pantry at the end of that sink run and then you'd have enough room to keep the range out of the corner. The tall elements would serve as "punctuation" to the space. If you don't have enough room to add 18" to the run without awkwardly encroaching the DR space, then split your 4 drawer base into 2 18" on either side of the range. A 4 drawer base won't hold pots and pans anyway, as that's 3 shallow drawers and only 1 deep drawer, so you might as well have them split.

Where do you envision your dish storage and silverware storage? On the island?

I envisioned dish/flatware storage in the 3-drawer cabinet to the right of the sink. I went back and forth about which side of the sink that should be on, and I ultimately decided I'd rather have it closer to my prep space than my dining space. We only set the table for meals about 5 times a week, so a few extra steps for table setting won't matter. More often, we are grabbing a plate or bowl to prepare our breakfast/lunch or grabbing a spoon or knife from the flatware tray to use in cooking.

I seriously thought about putting the pantry at the end of the sink run, but I felt like I'd be constantly cutting through my cleanup zone to get to my food. It's also a lot less convenient for unloading groceries. I'll look at that again, though, because it would help the other refrigerator wall and be more balanced.

I'm kind of surprised that everyone is so adamant that the trash should be moved. I was thinking to the left of the sink because when people clear their dishes after a meal they would naturally place them to the left of the sink. From there it would be easy to throw away the napkins and food waste right into the trash can below on the way to the sink. It is also a better place for trash for those doing homework at the island or that sort of thing. I plan to do most of my prep work on the island, and there is a second trash can there. Since I'm clearly in the minority on this I'll rethink it! Thanks for your continued input, live_wire_oak.

lavender_lass, I missed your comment before - we must have cross-posted. Thanks for your comments, too. I'll keep them all in mind when I get a chance to redraw some of this.

Oh, now I get it about the trash. I really should study my own plan a bit more! I did most of the work on it in August so it isn't as fresh in my mind as it could be. I was thinking that the trash was just to the left of the sink, but there is a dishwasher between them. Sorry about that - now the opposition to its placement makes perfect sense.

Also, I was re-reading everything and noticed that I never addressed the length of the sink wall run. It really shouldn't get much longer than it is because it will encroach on the DR space. A little shorter is probably better, which can easily be accomplisted by eliminating the much-maligned 12" shelf.

I'm with you on leaving the trash where it is so that it is accessible to others who may need to use it (and they always do), without infringing on your sink/cooking space! Otherwise, if you're at the sink and someone has to throw something away, they have to go deep into the work area and around you. There is also a second trash under the prep sink, so that takes care of easy access to trash while doing prep.

First: When measuring aisle widths, be sure you are measuring counter edge-to-counter edge, not cabinet-to-cabinet. I think you are are measuring cabinet-to-cabinet, which means your aisles are 3" narrower than you show.

Counters overhang cabinets approx 1.5" to cover doors/drawer fronts + 1/2" or so more to direct spills away from the fronts of the those drawers/drawer fronts. So, 1.5" on the island (front & sides) + 1.5" on the perimeter gives you 3" less aisle widths. If you are measuring counter edge-to-counter edge, then your aisles are as-shown.

BTW...when you have appliances in an aisle, measure from the part of the appliance that sticks out the farthest, usually the handle(s).

Trash & Recyclables...The problem with the trash where it's located is that it is far from where you need it the most...from the Prep & Cooking Zones. Most people generate far more trash and recyclables while prepping and cooking than they do cleaning up (or from the occasional outsider) and for a much longer period of time. By putting it so far away and with the island a "barrier island" to the trash, it will be difficult to use it when you need it most. IF the trash under the prep sink is big enough for both trash and recycling, then it will be OK. However, I strongly recommend putting the larger trash & recycling in the Prep & Cooking Zones and the smaller, under-sink trash under the cleanup sink.

Island & Prep Sink...Do you need such a wide prep sink? I'm asking b/c it's robbing you of some extra workspace on the island. Right now, you only have approx 36" to the right of the prep sink. While that's the minimum recommended for prepping, 42" to 48" is better. If it were me, I'd rather have a 24" sink base and have at least 42" of workspace on one side.

If you're planning a smaller sink in a large sink base, keep in mind that sink bases are one of the least functional cabinets. I would rather see something like this: 12" cabinet + 24" sink base + 18" trash + 24" MW alcove/drawer
.....OR
24" MW alcove + 18" trash + 24" sink base + 12" cabinet

The latter places the MW on the periphery so snackers can use it w/o getting underfoot of those working in the kitchen and still have it accessible by the cooks, as well as near the refrigerator & pantry (where most MW'd food comes from) and a water source. You might consider placing the MW so it faces out the left side of the island so it's even less likely snackers will get in the way.

You could then fit one seat on the left end, giving you three seats at the island, one of which is around the corner - better for visiting/conversation than all sitting like "ducks in a row". (The island is not wide enough for a seat on the side + 3 seats...15" knee/leg space for the person sitting on the left end + 48" for two people sitting on the back side = 63". That leaves you just 15" on the back...note wide enough for another seat. Besides, you can then have a 15" wide cabinet...

You're right, Buehl. I've always known the trash/recycling should be in the island, but I didn't know how to make it fit. I was planning to put a smaller sink on the left side of the 30" cabinet and use the right side for trash. I should have drawn it as an 18" sink cabinet and a 12" trash, but I was hoping that combining them into one cabinet with the sink on the left and the trash on the right might leave me with enough area to sneak in recyclables there, too. The sinks I'm looking at fit in an 18" cabinet. I wanted the 12"D cabinet facing the great room to hold all my appliances (mixer, food processor, waffle iron, blender, etc.) and I wanted the 12"D cabinet facing the sink to hold all my plastic bowls, cups, storage containers, and my very impressive collection of water bottles. I will check both to see if I can make them fit in smaller cabinets. I know I can put smaller appliances in drawers and can probably put the storage containers in drawers, too. I really like your first island, and I will try to make that will work. I have to check it with my great room floor plan to see if seating on the side of the island will make that walkway too narrow. I will also look at placing the cleanup trash under the sink. Thank you so much for your comments and taking the time to draw out the islands!

I'm another vote for moving the trash to the right of the sink. That was my first thought before readying any other posts. I want my trash/recyclables right next to my prep zone, where I can put drippy stuff away before it drips all over my counters and floors!

Thanks for all the input on the trash! I promise to move it. Any comments on my other questions about the overall look of the kitchen?

Didn't have time to read all the comments...but two stuck out at me.

1. I'm not a fan of any tall pantry cabinet under 21" wide. I would get rid of it in order to get more countertop and cabinetry on either side of your range!

2. The 48x12" base cabinet on the island that faces your sink and DW, will not be able to be open at the same time as your DW...unless your hinges will allow for the door to open wider...like butt hinges on inset cabinetry.

Revise and repost after you read all the comments.
Good luck!
Kompy

I cant recall if anyone has mentioned this but i once had a range right next to a lazy susan and it just didnt work out well, it was too hard to use the lazy susan bec the range sticks out much farther than the 24" deep cabinets

I'm guessing thats not your only pantry since this is new build you probably have a dedicated room for pantry items, so why not get rid of it and move fridge to end? then you can move range down a bit

And if you can get everyone in your household to scrape their own plates before putting them in the sink, you are much better off than many of us!

I'm going to throw this into the mix.

I'm right handed, and one of THE most convenient things I did was to put the DW to the right of the sink. My garbage is on the left, where my prep area is.

It's ergonomically easier to have the DW on the same side as you are sided. Did that make sense? [LOL]

As an aside, I laughed out loud at your thread title. "Honest comments, Please," Did you expect anything else?

You're going to have a fabulous kitchen, particularly since you're still framing. You can do anything. :) I wired for all quad outlets in my entire house, but particularly in my kitchen. It's not something we think about, but the years of a single appliance, toaster, coffee pot, radio, maybe, are gone. Even on an island with seating! Someone's going to want to plug in a laptop or something.

I also suggest examining your light switches. It's a heck of a lot easier if you can turn a light off/on from whatever door you're entering. If you have more than one on a room, why walk thru a dark room to turn it on, for example. I think they're called double pole switches.

I'm excited to watch this come together!

Thank you, kompy and pence, for your comments. Although this is a new build, this is a small house and there is not a dedicated pantry space. I can't imagine where we would store all our food if I eliminate the pantry, so I'm thinking about making it bigger (to exceed kompy's 21" rule). I'm sure that will make everyone shriek in terror, but I'll risk it. I know some of you think the range is squished in there, so try to keep in mind that food prep is only 10% of our time. Also, I always stand on the side of the range that is away from the lazy susan when I cook. That's where the big burner is. Last night reread the recent thread about a range next to a lazy susan and 10 people (everyone who responded) said it wasn't an issue for them.

Here are two new plans that differ only in the arrangement of the island. Oops, I forgot to put in the wall cabinets on the range/refrigerator wall, so we'll have to use our imaginations.

Plan A:

Plan B:

Both plans appease the masses by moving the trash to the right of the cleanup sink. I chose to place the cleanup sink where it is because then the island, sink, and window all line up. I like that.

Plan A is basically the one suggested by Buehl above. It is nice because the microwave is accessible and there is a larger space to the right of the prep sink. Plan B is nice because the trash/recycling is very handy to those outside the kitchen and it's a little further from the cleanup sink trash. The 24"W12"D cabinet also opens to the sink wall instead of the great room, which is preferable.

So whaddya think?

CEFreeman, I just noticed we cross-posted. The reason I asked for "honest comments" was because I had already posted about the layout months ago and this time I was asking more about the overall look. I didn't want to just hear, "it'll look great!" Haven't heard much of that...

Thanks for the hints about electrical. We're looking at that soon, so I'll keep that in mind. I would have liked to have the DW to the right of the sink (although mine is to the left now and doesn't bug me a bit), but I thought it would squish too much into the corner. That was before I moved the sink away from the corner a bit, so I'm going to come up with Plan C with the DW on the other side. Thank you for reminding me that I wanted to try that!

I like the last plan "B." I think it fixes the problems you had previously. I wouldn't move the DW to the other side of the sink. I'm right handed and have lived in 4 houses with the DW on either side, and never found it to be problem. But, having it in a corner IS a problem, especially since I envision that space between sink and range as probably secondary prep. Just my $.02. I think it looks good! Good job, and good luck!

Controlfreakecs, you are right. I did a quick plan C with the dishwasher swapped and I didn't like it so I'm not even going to post it. Thanks for your vote for Plan B. I like it pretty much, too.

I caved to peer pressure and made Plan D, which is Plan B without the pantry. I replaced it with an 18" pullout that will give me at least some of my pantry storage.

Plan D:

So, everyone, does it make your heart sing? Are you going to throw a parade for Plan D?

I like the first b/c there's more contiguous workspace on the one side of the sink. I also like the trash & recycle pullout closer to the range...with both trash and recycle bins (the 12" will only hold one bin.) I find I generate far more trash and recyclables while prepping and cooking than any other time and would want both bins easily accessible from both the Cooking & Prep Zones. BTW...you may need a 15" cabinet for one bin unless you have frameless cabinets. There aren't many trash pullouts for 12" wide cabinets out there for framed cabinets, if any. I went looking for one a few weeks ago and couldn't find any. I thought Rev-A-Shelf had one, but I didn't find one this time.

With the prep sink farther to one side, you also have the wide expanse of counterspace (width and depth) for other projects...baking, crafts, sewing, homework, wrapping gifts, etc.

One comment...you state you only spend 10% of your time prepping. That is extremely rare. Most people spend 70% or more of their time prepping and only 10% of their time cooking (actually standing in front of the range stirring, etc.) I suggest keeping track of how much time you spend on various activities (especially, prepping, cooking, & cleaning up). You may very well be different, but I would be very surprised if you only spent 10% of your time prepping. (I, for example, spend only 1% to 5% of my time cooking, 85% to 90% prepping, and probably no more than 10% cleaning up - everything goes in the DW!)

Buehl, I misspoke. I meant to say 10% of the time actively cooking.

Thanks for checking back. If I have to go another 3" on the trash that will be fine. I figured you would like Plan A better because it's your plan! I was thinking that I most often rinse my recyclables before putting them in the bin (of course that isn't true with cereal boxes) so it doesn't matter so much to me which side of the sink the bin is on. I'll pay attention to what I recycle and where I am when I do it over the next few days.

I like Plan D. In giving up an 18" pantry for an 18" pull out and wall cabinet, the only storage space that you are giving up will be the 18"x18" from the counter to the wall cabinet. I think you can find some place else for a couple of boxes of cereal and some bread. And you gain 18" of counter space, which really helps around the range. It's also less claustrophobic without the tall cabinet and refrigerator both there.

Glad you like it LWO.

I ran this by the guy who's paying for it all, and he liked Plan D, but with Buehl's island, so we're up to Plan E. "E" is for Excellent! I also did the elevations of both walls. Remember, there will be an island in front this, too. Love to hear if people think this will look great or just so-so. This is where I want the HONEST comments.

Thanks so much for all the input so far everyone!

Plan E:

I like Plan E as well :-)

As long as you're OK with the loss of some storage (the 18x18 to the counter and the shallower upper cabinet), then I think you will be very happy with this setup...I know I would!

Just be careful about seating space on the island...each seat needs 24" of linear space and should have at least 15" of clear knee/leg space/overhang (i.e., no cabinet or doors in the space).

I just saw this. I'm sitting here cracking up. We're building from the ground up too. Take a look at this thread of mine (it just kind of phased out...) and scroll down about 1/3 of the way to the layout lisa_a edited...that's where my island changed. Look how darned similar our layouts are! As I was reading I was going to tell you what to change but others did it before I needed to!!

Almost identical layout

The thing that jumps out at me with your latest one is that 12" trash. We fill up an 18" double trash bin easily. I can't imagine going smaller. I'd put the space back into that trash cabinet!!

My conundrum is all about the symmetry on that range wall still! I hope my thread helps you somewhat. These guys helped me a lot!

The plan looks beautiful. I'm half-tempted to put it into the HD kitchen planner program so you can see it high def. As everyone knows, I'm a kitchen newbie, but just curious...where are you thinking your food and spices will go?

Babs711, the plans are very similar! Thanks for pointing it out. Yours has that awesome pantry, which would certainly make things easier.

Steph2000, maybe I'll try to put it in there myself. I tried to fake something in the Ikea planner and another program my husband bought a while back (that others here recommended), and both had too many limitations. I'm on a Mac so I can't use everything. My KD will give me 3D drawings, but he always messes up things like the window size or location, so it's not exact enough for me. He may have software limitations, too.

Concerning the food and spices, I'm still trying to figure out if that last plan would work and where everything would go. Right now I'm thinking the bread and peanut butter would go in the 24" drawer under the microwave, the dry goods and oils would go in the 18" pullout, and the spices (I have them on a lazy susan) and baking supplies would go in the 36"W wall cabinet above the pullout, and I still have to figure out where snacks and cereals go. That's where a pantry would sure come in handy, although I like having most of the other foods close to the action. I'm trying to avoid using the corner lazy susan for anything my kids will access regularly. Right now I have a lot of my food in my lazy susan, and I am constantly annoyed by the way they leave it open every time they get something out. They leave all the cabinet doors open, too, but that's not as annoying somehow.

Here's a new question for everyone. As I was wandering around my kitchen last night measuring my stuff and trying to figure out where it would go, I realized how very large a 36"W drawer will be. Is it really too big? I'm sure I should start a new thread with this, but I'll google it first and see what I find. 30" seems like a great size.

I would have a hard time giving up a pantry, especially with children. So much of the function of the kitchen is about food. As my kids have gotten bigger, now to teenage boys, I can't believe how much food we go through. I wanted a pantry cabinet that they could easily access and that I could stock up. I vote for the larger pantry. I also read the thread on range next to the lazy susan and I think I would rather have that situation than be lacking in food storage. I agree that the lazy susan is not great for food storage and would want kids trying to get in there while I'm cooking. Hoping to store small appliances in it.

Love all of the changes to the island and dishwasher and trash placement! Your topless sink wall will be stunning! Can I ask what you are planning for windows? We are trying to figure out 7 feet of windows with a transom. Would love to know what you are planning.

I think you're awesome for doing the topless window wall. I'm not brave enough to lose all that storage. I plan on storing things there that I just can't put anywhere else! Over 13 years of marriage and two kids, even with a pantry, we have just accumulated too much! We're doing a 5' window which is still a nice size. But 7' with no cabinets would be so pretty!!

Just something I read on here- you can get more storage having 30" base cabinets and 18" uppers. Maybe you could do something like that on your stove wall?

Thanks for your vote for the pantry, dreamingnh. I love the pantry plan for storing snack foods and cereals, but I like that 18" pullout by the range better for anything I'd use for preparing dinner. I'm going to have to get detailed with what goes where so I can decide! I do have a closet in the mudroom where I'm planning to put bulk paper products, light bulbs, cleaning supplies, etc., so I may be able to keep a shelf in there for bulk food items. I'm not sure what you mean about what I'm planning for windows. The total measurement is 8'W by 5'H. The larger window is 3'8"W and is stationary. The 2 side windows are 2'8"W and are casement windows. It comes as all one unit and that's the way it comes standard. We are doing transoms in the great room, but not in the kitchen and dining room.

Babs711, I hope I don't miss that storage! I started out with a 5' window, then went to 7', and I finally topped out at 8'. One of the reasons I liked going topless on one wall is that I don't much like corner wall cabinets. My current kitchen has no windows, so I think I went a little overboard. If a kitchen feels closed in or dark (like mine now) I don't even want to be there.

Farfromhome, I had 30" base and 15"D uppers (18"D would be even better) in an earlier version. I ultimately gave it up for a variety of reasons - I was afraid that the wall cabinet in the corner would become pretty much inaccessible, the space behind the range and the lazy susan would be wasted, etc. I've been reading about 15"D uppers over standard depth counters and may still go with that. I'm not sure if there are issues with the range hood then. Thanks for bringing it up, because I will check the feasibility after I choose my cabinets.

Mpagmom, thanks for the window information. That's exactly what I was wondering. We are doing a similar set up, fixed window with two casements. Would you mind telling me the brand that offers that size standard? What about grids? We are considering gides on the casements and leaving the fixed window without grids for the view but I also like the look of all grids. Sort of nervous about such a large window that will be the focal point of our addition. My current kitchen is dark also so we may be going overboard too. Hoping the more windows the better!

dreamingh, it is an Andersen window and I believe it's the 400 series. This is a new build and we're using the windows the builders usually uses. I am only getting grids on the front of the house and on the tramsoms in the great room. I hope that looks OK!

Sounds beautiful! I have also been thinking about getting the grids in the transom only. It's nice to hear what other people are doing. Your kitchen plan is really coming together.

I have two, 3-drawer 36" bases.
I LOVE THEM. Pots and pans, all my plasticware in one, all my weird utensils next to the stove.

The biggest waste of space in my life is are two, 3-drawer 12" bases. They hold pot holders, paper bags, large utensils that are too large for the small 36"-er top drawer Like ladles. and plastic bags. and bags. But I'd have done away with those and gone with wider drawers if I'd known better.

My garbage is a 24" base that I put a pull out drawer into. This is hard to explain, but single cans usually have the smaller side of the rectangle against the door. Since mine is a retrofit and had a 1/2 shelf in it, I wanted the longer side against the door. Double cans do this, but not singles. But, my point is it's a big can and I'm only 1 person. I fill it, too. :)

I'm darkness-phobic. I lived without windows for several years, having only the holes covered with Tyvek paper. It was a clinically depressing cave. I know I went overboard a bit with lighting, because I NEVER want to live in the dark again. I have 6' sliders in the MBR and DR. I have 2, 3-pane windows (den and LR) that are 81" wide and 6' tall. I also have two 5' sliders in the den and GR. Those aren't my only windows, either.

Then my lighting. [LOL] I've actually scaled back on that a bit -- but not much! Light light light!!!

Plus, I'll never live or sleep in a room without egress again.

I've been debating grids on the back sliders, but haven't moved forward with it. Finishing my electric is more important. ;)

You've got a beautiful kitchen!

Is there already a wall to the left of the refrigerator in Plan E? It wasn't there for the previous Plans A - C (the ones with the pantry).

I'm asking for two reasons...

1. If there is a wall there, you will need* to do one of the following (in order of what I think would work best, best first):

• Shorten the wall to no more than the depth of the refrigerator carcass/box (for a CD refrigerator, approx 24"; for a standard depth, approx 30"; check the refrigerator you plan to use/get)

• Purchase a single-door refrigerator with the hinge on the range side and handle on the wall side (i.e., no french-doors)

• put in a 12" pullout b/w the refrigerator and wall, maybe use it as a broom closet.

2. If there is no wall there, then to alleviate your pantry issue, would you consider a 12" deep pantry cabinet w/stationary (but adjustable) shelves facing out into the "hall"? I.e., turned 90 degrees so it faces outside the kitchen. This would give you floor-to-ceiling storage (minus the toekick & crown molding space). Everything in this cabinet would be visible at one time and would be easily accessed.

   If you still want Plan E (with no wall), then you would not need the "filler cabinet" b/w the refrigerator and wall.

* Why do you need to do one of these? You need space b/w the wall and refrigerator to allow a refrigerator door with a hinge on the wall side to open fully. To open fully, adjacent walls, counters, cabinets, etc. cannot extend past the refrigerator carcass...the doors must extend past these. You will probably only need one to three inches b/w the ref door & wall to be able to open the ref door enough to access things, but you need closer to 12" to open it fully for removing bins, etc.

Personally, I'd vote for taking the wall down completely and putting in the pantry. Like this:

OK...I take it back...it wasn't there in the first pic...it was there in later pics!

Oh well! So, can the wall be removed???

Can't wait to see mpagmom's response to the pantry solution, buehl. I hope that works. I personally think the more shallow cabinets can be so handy. Like you said, nothing gets lost in the back.

And, mpagmom, a thread on the pros and cons of wide shelves would be great. I'm sure there are things I could learn about that topic! I need to start a thread about my own pantry dilemma...ugh, I am still living in denial about that issue, apparently.

When we put in new windows/doors this summer, we put 'grids' on the front of the house, but not on the slider and the back of the house. I'm really happy with the decision, money savings aside. We back up to a greenbelt and I'm really enjoying the unobstructed views out the back. And, we have that backsplash window, so grids were out there and the slider and window look great together.

However, the grids added needed character to the front pf the house - from the inside and the out. And, they go with the french doors we have to the den. There was actually a mistake made and the first windows they put in up front didn't have the grids, so I really got to see the comparison - and it made a huge difference.

Steph2000, thanks for the vote of confidence on the grids!

CEFreeman, I'm glad the 36" wide drawers aren't too big. I was thinking it would be great for pots and pans. Does it get at all heavy when it's loaded down? I'm also glad I'm not the only one overdoing it on the windows, although I don't have nearly the reason you do!

Buehl, I noticed that about the refrigerator door last night. I was planning to change the wall so it will extend only as far as the countertop on the other side. I will have to verify that both doors will fully open with that configuration, but it would work with my current FD refrigerator. The wall suddenly appeared after the first posting because I redrew everything to make sure I had it exactly to scale from the plans. I also included the great room and dining room so I could place the furniture in there and see how it all worked together, although I'm only posting a portion of it.

I love your idea about a pantry facing the side, but I don't know how well it would work. This shows what is on the other side of that wall:

There is a small hall there leading to the powder room and mudroom, so I really can't go any further than the edge of the existing wall. I could make it work by taking a few inches from the 18" pullout. When I get time I may draw that up and see how it looks. I could have a door on the kitchen side as well so I could access a lot of stuff from there. Thank you so much for continuing to try to improve this plan! BTW, I made another minor change to the island and increased the depth of the cabinet to the left of the prep sink to 15". That makes the island top 66", which is what I wanted originally, and it gives the side stool a bit more leg room.

Thanks again to everyone who has commented and really improved this plan. I have a very busy weekend so I probably won't get back here until Sunday night, but I'll keep thinking about it!

Don't do a wall there at all. Narrow the 36" drawer base to 30" and add that to the 4 1/2" of wall, and you've got room for a 9" deep shelf cabinet facing the hall. That can hold a LOT of cans and cereal and other staples. And it's not so deep that things get lost. If you took another 3" from the pullout and made it a 15" instead of an 18" one, then you could have a 12" deep shelving pantry there and the uppers would have visual symmetry around the range.

Hollysprings nailed it, I think. On all counts. Yea, symmetry (especially around the stove)! Yea, pantries that replace walls while serving the same purpose! And a final yea for tall, narrow pantries which don't allow things to get lost in the back. It's perfect for food storage...

What do you think?

If you cannot afford the 2-1/4" off the hall, then make the pantry cabinet 10" deep. With the thickness of the doors included, it will stick out 1/4" or so into the hall...I doubt you will notice it!

Base cabinets: 30" drawer base + 30" range + 30" of base cabinet (18" + 12" of susan) + "hidden" 24" of susan = 114"

Upper cabinets: 27" upper b/w ref & range + 36" hood + 27" upper + 24" cabinet to corner = 114"

For base cabinets, the exact configuration of the cabinets does not matter as much as the total inches b/c they're not seen from anywhere other than in the kitchen b/w the island and cabinets.

For upper cabinets, the configuration is important b/c they are seen from inside and outside the kitchen. So the 27" cabinets immediately flanking the range hood would give symmetry and balance. The 24" cabinet to the corner is beyond the 27" cabinets and so should be fine.

I'm finally back. I had a chance to play with the design a little bit Sunday night, but I didn't like it so I did another one yesterday. It's funny because I didn't see Buehl's last comment before I did either plan, and I came to the same conclusion about a 10"D pantry. (If I'd seen it first I wouldn't have wasted my time Sunday night!) My plan differs from Buehl's in that I went with a 30" hood instead of 36". It will be a radiant or induction range and I don't do greasy cooking at all, so unless someone gives me a super-compelling reason to go with 36", I'd rather have the cabinet space. I also added a little wall next to the pantry because I just felt like it needed to be there. I don't want the pantry to go up 10' like the other cabinets (maybe 7.5'?) so I thought I would have it built into the walls surrounding it.

So here is Plan G:

Just noticed the pantry has a height of 84" and it should be 90".

I'm not sure about the appliance garage, but it's in there for now. Any opinions on that?

Pantry wall (not sure exactly what it would look like, though):

Thank you all for your continued input!!!

You guys have been discussing some great changes. The only other thing I would consider is under the island, on the stool side...I think you have room for a shallow cabinet while still affording excellent seating space. If you're looking for every bit of storage area you can find, I would definitely take advantage of that space for lesser used things!

Because you are short on space, my guess is that you will be using your uppers alot. Where will you store your step stool? If the step stool will be used alot and you will need to access it often...
What about brooms and such that are tall. I don't see any storage that can accomodate brooms or mops. Is there storage for these elsewhere?

I know that the trend is to sit at 2 and 3 sides of the island. I actually prefer to sit at the dinner table for real meals. We only use the island for really quick informal meals, ie weekday breakfast. I find that having stools on multiple sides of the island creates a bit of traffic issue unless you have a really huge house with huge hallways. As it is you now created a smaller hallway between the back of your couch and the short side of island seating. There are always pros and cons to every decision that you make.

I only sit on 1 side of the island and that is the side that gives us the view. The other side would have had the diners face the range. For me, the spectacular sunrise that we see on our east facing breakfast view was more than enough to make up for the loss of seating on the short side of island. No one would have sat on that side to face the range if given the choice.

In your kitchen, I would have tried to orient the island seating to look out the large window if there is a nice view and if the measurements work for you. (it looks like it would...) One of my pet-peeves of the design experts on this forum is that they do not give enough credance to the house and the view/outlook of the kitchen. You need to really figure out what the strength of the original room is. To me, a nice view and natural light are something that needs to be maximized.

Go in your kitchen and ask yourself what you want to look at while eating your meals. Do you want to see the refrigerator/range or the window over the sink? Then you create the room to make that happen, IMHO....

I am throwing a bit of monkey ranch at the last minute...

Sorry...

Just do a 30" wide pantry there and panel the side facing the kitchen to resemble the cabinets. The little bit of wall is beyond awkward looking. And take it all the way to the ceiling just like the rest of the cabinets. It doesn't matter that it only stores your Christmas wrapping paper on the top shelf. It's storage space. There is zero good reason to have a wall when it can be storage instead.

And I might see if I could tweak the island shape from something other than square (piano shaped maybe?) in order to keep the main prep space close to the range yet provide for more attractive seating ala kaismom's point.

Thanks for your thoughts, singingmicki, kaismom, and greendesigns.

I've thought about adding a bit of storage under the island and will look at that with the KD.

The upper cabinets will be used for storing things I don't get at very often. I will have a small stepstool to the left of the sink wall and a short ladder in a closet about 10 feet away. Brooms and mops will be there too.

On the island seating... I have 4 kids ranging in age from 6 to 16. The island seating is for breakfast for a couple of them, after school snacks, homework, staring at mom while she cooks, etc. Anyone eating at the counter will be staring at a book or the newspaper - we all read constantly. There is no view out the window - I want it for the natural light. I have space to landscape there and make it a nice view eventually, but it might take years for the plants to grow enough to block the not-so-nice view. Until then I will have some sort of shade to filter the view but not the light. We eat all our regular meals at the dining room table, even if only a few of us are around.