were they some sort of exotic handmade tile? just to cross that off the list before we rip into your installer.

There are some tiles that are made not to be even. I will assume that is not the case with what you are asking. What type of tiles did you select?

If you upload a pic of the tiles that would be a big help.

No, not exotic. Porcelain tile made to look like vein cut travertine or limestone. Made in Italy. Sold by our local tile company - Discount Tile. Although, don't let the name fool you, they are not a warehouse but they are not super fancy either. $5.59 for 12x24 tile.

I agree. It is perplexing that the floor can be so uneven after leveling that many times. Red flag yes but so early in the job that we wanted to give him a chance and try to make it work but it's only continued to be like this 4 weeks later. The worst part is this guy came highly recommended by friends of ours who had him remodel parts of their house and put an addition on!

Those are going to be toe-catchers for sure for some poor sap.

There are self-leveling concretes that are used for such situations. I wonder why they couldn't get your floor even? But still, you can always use more thinset [mortar] on a tile to get it level with the other tiles if you check to make sure each tile is level with the others as you lay them. I wouldn't pay for it.

The floor is grouted and finished now. I asked him to fix the really bad tiles but he said it would not be easy and he would have to break the tiles to get them out. When I cornered him to do it he said no. Since we have heated flooring I was concerned that pushing him to fix them would just cause him to be even more careless and hasty and damage our heated floor mats...ugh. The job is close to being done but we've already paid him most of the money except for one last payment that he is now trying to get us to pay him early (he's got a long list of items of how we've "broken the contract by delaying making decisions" and "changing out minds" which is not true so he thinks we should pay the final payment now. NO WAY!)

From the picture it looks like a hasty/careless install. I would not bow to the intimidation, provide him with the punch list, (all areas to be corrected) and a reasonable time frame to make the corrections. Do not pay final payment until properly completed! if he refuses to rectify the mistakes then I would file complaints, BBB, attorney generals office, any business association he is affiliated with etc. and still not pay him. make sure you are taking pics and documenting everything.

Jeff hit the nail on the head.

What you have there is unacceptable.

THIS is when we need a magic wand.

12x24 tile are installed with a 33% offset not 50%. Large format tiles bow in the center, With a 50% offset the high point (center) of one tile is next to the low points of the next course causing lippage. Not all tiles are like this but the majority are. If you lay 2 tiles on top of each other face to face they will rock. TCNA calls for 33%. The attached photo has bowed tiles with correct offset. As for spacers I would not use them as tiles are different sizes. Now that I zoomed in on your photo it's more than the tile. Bad installation.

Creative tile, so nice to get a Pro``s comments so we can all learn from this. Megan,

don`t pay him any more $$ -

Creative Tile is right on. It is lippage that occurs because each tile slightly cups during the manufacturing process. Since large format tiles became so popular, the issue has been brought to light and manufacturer's are now saying that a 1/2 offset (as you have) is not appropriate - it should be 1/3. Up until about two years ago however, no one was dealing with/warning about this issue and it was happening all the time. IMO, it is the job of the designer of the space to specify this for the installer. Designers must stay on top of this and be knowledgeable about products and how/when they should be used.

I just had a tile floor laid in a small bathroom in an older home. These are basic 12x24 porcelain tiles, nothing exotic, nothing handmade, but at least one of the tiles is noticeably higher than it's neighboring tile. You can feel it catch on your shoe when you walk over it. The floor tiles were laid on Hardibacker and the contractor never said it needed to be floated with mortar to be level. I'm going to stick to my guns on this and require him to reset that tile. If he doesn't, I will not pay in full for my entire remodel, then I will contact the Better Business Bureau -- they can be really helpful in such cases.

joanne87 - did your contractor fix your tile?

I am having the same problem in our remodel. The contractor's tile sub laid the 6 x36 floor tiles uneven in our master bath, with neighboring tiles higher in some places. I noticed when I felt it through my shoe. It's not grouted yet so I marked the places with tape to be fixed. Knowing this contractor, they may tell me it can't be fixed, but I know that's not true as the tiles in my current house are laid flat. So frustrating dealing with incompetence!

When dealing with plank tiles 6x36 or larger it is best to order a rectified product. Rectified meaning that each tile, box to box is perfectly square with one another. This way you can get the super tight grout joints most people like. If the tile is non rectified, expect each tile to differ from on another in size. Could be 1/32" up to 1/8" difference and I have seen some worse. -- I have never come across a rectified tile that has warping issues but that doesn't mean it can't happen.
The problem with OP's product is that it looks to be warped. Warped meaning that the center of the tile is either higher or lower than the ends. Warping can happen during the final construction stages of the tile. The warping is most noticeable when the tile is laid in the brick pattern allowing both the center of the tile to butt up to the ends of other tiles, showing the height difference. -- If this issue is brought up to the company where you purchased the tile prior to installation you should be able to reorder a different lot and have the product swapped out. Installation constitutes acceptance. If the product is installed and you notice the defect it is very very hard to get the product replaced by the manufacturer. -- Does this happen often? No but it does happen.
Some lipage of tile will happen with almost all tile installs unless the installer is using a more expensive spacer that also controls the height of the tile being laid. These spacers are not cheap so if you do not specify to your installer don't expect them to be used. If the height difference is minimal do not expect your installer to tear out and replace. There's a very good chance of damaging surrounding tiles during removal of that one in question. If you wanted a smooth as glass floor you should have installed glass. If the tile lip sticks up high enough to trip over... You bet your ass it should be replaced.

This is an update to my previous comments regarding lippage with large format tiles. Rather than having the contractor reset that one offending tile with so much lippage, we decided to demo the entire floor and redo it with new tile. I wasn't entirely happy with my color choice anyway once I saw the floor in entirety, so I paid to have the floor tile completely redone. I used the same size of 12x24, same brand and pattern of tile but in a different color and set in a 33% offset rather than 50% offset, and we used a larger grout joint (1/8" rather than 1/16"). I now love the floor and if there's any lippage, it very, very minimal.

Hopefully others see this before they get into the same situation. A 1/2 offset and small grout joint cannot be used with large format tiles. It is a recipe for disaster.

Our contractor's sub tile guy installed 6 x 36 eramosa wood tile in our master bath. I think it is rectified, but am double checking with the designer (it's a design/contractor team). There is some lippage that I discovered walking on the tiles with my shoes. If I rub my shoe against the tile, it "catches" slightly on the lippage. It's probably not enough to trip over, but I can feel it through my shoe and I imagine will feel more prominently with bare feet. There are about 7-8 places on a 100 sq ft area of my master bath floor. The tile is not grouted yet, planned for 1/8" grout. Is it acceptable to ask them to fix these areas and is that doable? Or does the whole floor need to be redone? My contractor claims this tile guy is "amazing", but judging from the other quality of the work he has done, I have lost confidence in him.

If the lip is 3/16" or greater, change it out. If smaller, there's really no need. Something you can discuss with your contractor. Doable? Sure! Will you be charged for it? Maybe. There's the labor to tear out and do their best not to break surrounding tiles. Need to scrape up all the dried thinset back down to smooth concrete. Could set the installer back a couple of days for demo and resetting of new product before grouting. No harm in asking the contractors opinion. After all, he works for you and if he wants to make you happy he will comply.

After reading the threads here, I double checked my wall and floor tile and found they are laid 1/2 offset. The stagger was never discussed with me, only the direction on the floor, to be laid diagonally. As I mentioned, the tile on floor has uneveness and lippage that I notice when walking with my shoes. Not quite as bad as some other photos posted above,

but it is there and I notice it. I am paying 10K for labor and materials on this tile job, so I am thinking it should be done correctly? The grout is not in place yet. Should the contractor and/or tile guy should have known to use a 1/3 offset? What do I do now? Advice is appreciated, thanks!

Yes the 1/3 offset is standard practice. That is what is stated in the TCNA handbook. If you requested 50% I would then point out the increased risk of lippage. Keep in mind the tile may not be bowed and all is fine. In your photo it appears to be cement board on the wall without waterproofing. It is possible that poly was installed behind it. If not a topical waterproofing would be required. Cement board is not waterproofing!! The planks on the floor I would have probably set at a 25% offset so that the grout joints would not repeat for four courses. Personally I would use a lippage tuning system with plank tiles. Verify the waterproofing! You may want to start a new thread.

The designer generally specifies what the offset should be and the tile setter follows the designer's specifications. Sometimes the homeowner does not hire a designer and they take that role on themselves.

It makes sense that the large tiles would have some "lippage" because getting them completely flat is more difficult at that size. Thankfully, I had a 12 x 24 tile installed in my new addition bathroom shower 3.5 years ago and the guy did a good job. There are some tiles that look a little bit more inset than the others, but they don't scream out at you. This is very good information for anyone looking to do a large format tile installation. Take heed.

We have this problem in many places in brand new build with terra cotta tiles. Is there any way to alleviate without ripping out? adjusting grout somehow?

Terra cotta tiles as in Saltillo? Saltillo is a man made product and you will always have lipage. The tiles will all vary in thickness and sizing. The only way I know to avoid this is to find a ceramic or porcelain tile that mimics the look of Saltillo.

So I have a similar issue of lippage and not sure what to do.

- backerboard was laid
- thinset was applied in small batches and
- tiles were laid on thinset
- no spacers were used
- grouting has NOT happened yet

My concern is the lippage. I dont think grouting will make it 'help the issue' to the degree needed as the installer claims it will. These are "thru body porcelain tiles" and not refined from my understanding.

Installer said "variations in height & uneven floor"

My question: if I have him take out the ones that have lippage, what do I tell him to do differently to address the issue given he said factors are "height variations" and "uneven floor"?

Please advise.

It is up to the installer to discuss substrate requirements and how they will be addressed. Once he/she puts tile on it they own it. If there is a thickness difference a larger notched trowel would be used to allow for adjustment. TCNA states the following. For
tiles with at least one edge 15 in. (0.38m) or longer, the maximum
allowable variation is no more than 1/8 in. in 10 ft. (3 mm in 3 m) and
no more than 1/16 in. in 2 ft. (1.6 mm in .6 m) from the required plane,
when measured from the high points in the surface.

I would bet your tiles do not vary that much in thickness if at all. Simply have the installer take up two abutting tiles with extreme lippage and show you the thickness difference. Offer to pay the installer for his/her time if they are different and if they are the same he / she has a big problem.

@aak3372 - I wouldn't stop complaining about the tripping hazards he has left you. You may even want to stage stubbing your toe... That floor looks worse than our local Denny's restaurants floor... and it's bad!!!

What size tiles are those? 12x12 - 14x14 tile should have a 3/8" notch trowel to spread thinset. 16x16 or larger should have a 1/2" notch trowel to spread the thinset. Is this size recommended by the TCNA? I don't know but I do know that these sized trowels apply ample amount of thinset for setting purposes for these sized tiles. And to better assure a stronger bond, the installer could butter the backs of the tiles with additional thinset. --Thinset shouldn't be applied in small batches. The more thinset, the better bond you have to your subfloor. No one likes hollow spots in their tiled floor.

Spacers that have a built in leveling system should have been used. This guy is not skilled enough to level a floor he is laying...we see it now in your photos. Half ass work should be paid half the cost he is asking. My installers would be ripping this job out and redoing it on their dime...not the customers.

Just to be clear I only mentioned offering to pay for 2 tiles removed to put the installer on the spot to prove his point. No matter what it's a bad installation.

Thanks CTE!

I spoke with him, and after some initial dialogue, he came and looked at it and admitted some of them are indeed having a big gap and he will fix those. Yeah!

Thanks guys.

I also found a useful article on To Grout or Not To Grout under cabinets prior to cabinet installation. No harm but better to have it grouted it seems is the consensus.

We just had tile laid and I feel that the job was rushed and now the spacing in between the sheets of tile are not perfect and some areas of grout are larger and more pronounced than others. The contractor said these things happen after the grout sets and that it’s more noticeable because we picked a darker color grout. I also notice swells or lumps under my feet in certain areas. Wouldn’t leveling the floor prior to tiling prevent this kind of problem? Maybe I have not looked closely enough at other people’s tile, or maybe I am getting duped. Is this something that is preventable? We had 1” hexagon tile laid with a dark grey grout. Here are some pictures and you can almost make out the vertical and horizontal lines framing each sheet of tile.

Sarah you will get more response by starting a new post. When pro's see March 2015 they usually pass it by. With that said yes the dark grout will exaggerate the imperfections. The humps in the floor were there originally and mosaics will conform to them. Yes leveling the floor would correct this. Did you pay to have the floor leveled? Leveling is a completely separate charge which should have been discussed prior. The big rookie mistake here is the mosaic sheets lining up with each other. By offsetting the sheets those grid lines are much less noticeable.

To avoid future freak outs... 50% offset with large scale material is totally fine if the material doesn’t bow or cup. Less hides crappier material.

Price doesn’t predict crappiness here, unfortunately.

"50% offset with large scale material is totally fine"

Last question was about mosaic's...........

What happened in the end? I'm really sorry this happened to you and I hope you didn' t pay him until he finished the job as it should be done. Floor tiles need to be leveled. That is not something you should point out to a professional. It's part of the job.

We didn’t discuss leveling and I honestly didn’t even know what that was until one of my friends told me about it. Shouldn’t that have been mentioned when we were planning the removal of our previous flooring and addition of our new tile? That’s why we hired professionals. The vanity and toilet have been installed on time for thanksgiving guests, but the tub has yet to go in and will be installed on Monday. Is there really much they can do about it at this point?

Thank you all for taking the time to respond, by the way!

It is up to the professional to bring up required floor prep. You should not be expected to know. Key word here is professional. Happy turkey day all!

Thank you so much! Happy turkey day to you too! :)

i am having the same problem.son't understand why if a wall board was placed in the shower (flat) why i am being told the the wall of the house bows out. also that because i used larger tile (6x18) that is is more noticeable

also the floor tile has lippage

i wanted the tile close together because i did not want to deal with a lot of grout

may that was the mistake in asking for that?

Ouch. Time to stop and reassess. In the building industry we are well aware that NOTHING is square, flat or plumb. Nothing. Just because new wall board was thrown up doesn't mean it will be any better than the surface it is sitting on.

The surface prep to get everything to sit nice and pretty can be fairly expensive. Check your contract (hopefully you have a well written one) to see who is responsible for the prep and how much it costs.

Often times tile setters are responsible for the waterproofing (their bottom most layer) up to the finished product. A general contractor is normally responsible for the the wall studs (furring them out to get them as square and plumb as possible) and then adding the wall board. The tile setter will take it from there using their skills with mortar beds to get the tiles to sit in a pleasing manner.

At this point, you have very poor surface preparation (which means I would question the water proofing as well) and you have very poor technique being shown by the tile setter. Your request for inappropriately narrow grout lines is simply the topping on the cake. The tile setter should have objected and told you he will minimize to the smallest allowable for the tile. He should have forced you to sign a waiver for anything narrower than manufacturer's requirements.

If you do not have a GC, then you - the homeowner - are the GC. Anything behind the wall board would be up to you (in lieu of the GC) to fix prior to engaging a subcontractor such as a tile setter.

Ok...so the answer is this job is a do over with special attention to the water proofing solution used.

@ Joan - Yet another reason why tiles are recommended to be installed with a grout joint. Enjoy!

Horrible installation

If you see tile being installed with major imperfections you hired the wrong installer immediately find a new one. Especially large format tiles on thinset mud thinset install the tiles should be almost seemless perfection flat and level. Some of these pictures look so bad I wonder if they ever actually learned how to install floors. Picture attached of proper large format install.

I worked for TCNA for 3 years in the 1980s. Mud jobs done by an experienced Professional Installer will be self-leveling and plumb. Mud jobs are actually preferred in a renovation with sunken, or maligned subfloor aged by a heavy bathtub. Typically the job is done in 4-5 sq.ft. sections prior to initial set with a piece of old 2x4 run over the top of the tiled section while the mud is still fluid enough to be compliant. You can listen to make sure any lipping is eliminated. If it sounds like a train on a railroad track, take out your rubber hammer and tap/recheck, tap/recheck until perfect. This type mud job is best left to an experienced Pro.

This contractor needed an extra helper, one to carry material and generally maintain a clean worksite, and another to shadow his tile work and keep up the pace required to make sure the leveling gets done properly before initial set. He would have to pay the helper/ cleanup guy but, the old timer who gave me this tip says it give him more time to pay attention to do a proper job. Net-net the old timer told me he never had an unhappy customer and more often than not he saves 1 day of labor which improves his profit anyway. But again, leveling problems in a proper mud job is unheard of!

Now for the amateur. Don't even attempt a mud job as in the above. If more leveling of the subfloor is necessary, lay the mud and let it cure into a new subfloor. Pick up the tub and reset if necessary to make sure of proper runoff of waterspray away from the tub and toilet. Buy a level, run a plumb line and if you don't have enough room, or don't know how to run a plumb line, call a carpenter and use wood subfloor instead! Following that use a thin set over a fully cured mud or plywood subfloor (A side on top).

And boy oh boy these pics make me sick to my stomach. Call TCNA and buy the TCNA Handbook. They are cheap and typical free if you tell them you are a Designor working for an Architect.