Here are some more pictures showing more detail of the curl:

Agree that they have the classic appearance of herbicide exposure but the additional issues of their size, being in such small containers and an unknown potting soil rather than a soil-less mix being used in such small containers opens the door to many other possibilities as well.

And given that the plant varieties you listed won't survive in that container size anyway and perhaps not in that mix, I have to ask what is the long range plan here? In other words, even if it is herbicide damage the plants can sometimes be saved but they would need substantial changes made and if it is not herbicide damage then substantial changes still must be made.

Dave

Thanks Rodney. I noted the "Veggie Garden Mix" I purchased had a lot of manure in it. I was reading somewhere that the manure could contain herbicides that were used on the hay that fed the animal that produced the manure... Do you think that could be likely?

Also, if it is herbicide damage and the herbicide is actually in the soil, is there anything that could be done to improve the situation and promote a recovery? (Flushing, transplanting into new soil etc...)

Thanks Dave. I have a large raised bed setup for the plants. My plan here was to transplant them from 4" pots deeper into 1 gallon pots, wait 2-3 weeks and then transplant plant them into the raised bed. The raised bed is 8' x 6' and (perhaps unfortunately) filled with that same veggie mix.

What do you think about that plan? Should I have gone to soil-less mix in the 1 gallon containers? I purchased them in 4" pots, and my rationale for the sizing-up transplanting was to get them deeper each time I transplanted and get more of the stem burried to encourage root growth higher up on the stem. What would your recommendation be from here? What would you have done differently?

I'm new to gardening and much appreciate the help and advice.

Thanks again!

Stephen

Here is a link to the "Veggie Mix" product I purchased:

http://www.triplefivebulkproducts.ca/product-6-Veggie-Mix-Topsoil

It is described as: "Veggie Mix Topsoil it's Triple Five's most premium growing medium soil. A manure based blend consisting of well rotted mushroom manure, horse and turkey manures, compost and sand. Rich in organic matter this soil is suitable for vegetable gardens and planter applications."

Hope that helps. Thanks again.

Stephen

Looks like herbicide damage to me too. I would throw them out and start over. My experience is that it takes almost the entire season and sometimes longer to overcome the symptoms when they are this severe.

Soil-less mix only in containers and given the ingredients they list on their website it could easily be herbicide contaminated.

" A manure based blend consisting of well rotted mushroom manure, horse and turkey manures, compost and sand." (I never knew that mushrooms made manure, did you?)

But the plants in the photos are well past transplanting size so is the delay just weather related or what?

The only way to test for herbicide contamination in soil mix requires lab testing but I would at least contact the supplier to see if they admit to issues with it or not. Personally i would go pick up a new plant at the nursery - a healthy one and plant it in the bed with the questionable soil. If it quickly does the same thing then you have your answer.

If it turns out to be contaminated then it will have to be replaced. UC Davis Extension research has shown that 2-4-D herbicides (the type that does this kind of damage) remains active in the soil for months.

Sorry to be the messenger.

Dave

Thanks Dave. I didn't realize they were in critical need of transplant - that was just poor judgement on my part. Would you think the 4" to 1 Gallon to raised bed was a good idea? Would you have just gone directly to the raised bed? Someone also suggested trying to plant peas in the same soil as a different way to test for 2-4-D?

Are tomatoes particularly sensitive? I have a few types of basil planted in the same soil and I'm not seeing any leaf problems there. Is it that each plant type will be effected differently? Should I have used soil-less in the 1 gallons?

The very tight curly is herbicide damage.

You can run an easy bio-assay to determine if it is herbicide carry over.

Suggest you unpot the worst looking tomato so that you can run the bio-assay with the salvaged potting mix.

Details here:

http://smallfarms.oregonstate.edu/sfn/f09Herbicide

You'll know in a few days if the test is positive. If so,I suggest you take the images and what remains of the potting mix to wherever you purchased it; explain the problem; and ask for a refund.

Unfortunately this sort of contamination has been occurring for 10 or more years, including in commercially packaged products such as composted manure, potting mix, and organic soil amendments.

Are tomatoes particularly sensitive? I have a few types of basil planted
in the same soil and I'm not seeing any leaf problems there.

---------------------------------------

Yes, tomatoes are super sensitive to herbicide. Even some slight drift from your neighbors' can affect them.

Sey

Even the FUMES of Roundup can cause damage to tomato plants, as I found out a few weeks ago.

Thanks for all the help. So here's what I'm concluding and also some follow-up questions.

Conclusion: Herbicide in manure in the veggie mix is likely causing the leaf curling. More evidence below.

More Details/Evidence/Comments:

-This actually makes lots of sense and explains other problems I've seen in the garden.

-I purchased a seperate product called "Composted Bark Mulch" from the same company. My plan was to used this to cover bare areas to minimize weed growth and also help retain moisture

-My understanding is that this "Composted Bark Mulch" contains manure (and unfortunately, probably the same manure)

-I've used this product at the base of my Sweet Peas. They have been struggling the whole time with extreme leaf curl. Two of the sun-flowers I planted have this mulch around them and also have severe leaf curl, while the one sunflower that doesn't is totally normal.

-This adds to the evidence it's in the soil/manure and not air-born from a neighbour's spray.

Follow-up Questions:

-So now what should I do?

-Is that soil going to be permanently contaminated?

-Will the herbicide degrade with time? Won't it also be heavily diluted with rain/water? If so, can I help dilute it by excess watering? Unfortunately, I also read that even 3ppb is enough to cause damage.

-Should I simply avoid planting any of the "sensitive" plants in these areas (peas/beans/tomatoes/sunflowers) as a practical, but unfortunate solution?

-Sounds like I should avoid using any more of this mulch. Is it likely that the company selling it is aware of this problem? Seems like a big liability/problem to be selling a "Veggie Mix", advertised as being ideal for a veggie garden, while the product contains an herbicide that specifically kills one of the most common vegetables people would grow with the product...

Unfortunately I've spent a lot of money on these soils/mulches and thought I was doing the right thing. I've also spent a lot of time and effort transporting and spreading/digging these products in my garden. Lots learned here and very appreciative of all the help everyone provided. Now I'm wondering what I should do to salvage the situation without literally throwing all the soil out and digging the soil/mulch out of my garden.

Looking for any ideas you guys have on improving the situation practically with minimum effort/expense (I'm guessing the solution of throwing everything out and starting from scratch is the best, but I can't afford the time/effort/expense of that solution).

Thanks again!

Stephen

As I said above, I sure would contact the company. They may be aware of the problem yet not admit to it or they may offer to compensate. As to length of contamination and use, as I said studies show that 2-4-D remains active in the soil for many months. it is not destroyed by composting and for all practical purpose IMO makes the mix unusable for growing anything this year. Sure exposure to rain and water will help dilute it but that will require months of time. Google all the studies done on 2-4-D contaminated soil for details.

And yes, it is 2-4-D based on the plant appearance. Other herbicides result in a totally different plant damage appearance.

Dave

NO, the soil is not permanently damaged.

Various articles about herbicide carryover explain that the affected area can again be normal if actively worked -- that is, irrigated, and cultivated, and repeat several times during the season.

Or simply grow corn there this season.

Also, since the herbicides involved are used against broad leaved plants, you can safely grow corn. In other words, you now have a good site for this year's corn!

Oh yes. About all those other plants with the weird growth?. They're also sensitive to the carryover. Tomatoes are the very mos sensitive.

So a good guideline from here on out: Every time during every season that you obtain new supplies of manure, composted or not, do a bio-assay prior to applying it to the ground.

If the manure product tests positive, then actively compost it -- that is, hot compost it before you use it.

Sure you can plant remedial crops in the bed for a year and let them take up the herbicide, likely die as they are broad leaf crops and get dumped...IF you want to grow corn, soybeans, or biomass grains and such. That sure wouldn't be my preference. Not unless all other options are exhausted first.

I also wouldn't want to spend more time and money irrigating and cultivating waste crops, and/or hauling in fresh soil and compost in an effort to dilute it to the point where it can be used.

As for hot composting - sure 9 months from now it might be safe to use. But the UC Davis studies done on herbicide contaminated composts were hot composted studies.

Ultimately it will be your decision Stephen but I would want the supplier to replace it all with fresh tested proven to be ready to use mix instead. JMO

Dave

What a mess! Sorry to hear you are suffering from someone else's incompetence.

The symptoms of mild 2-4D damage can be alleviated with foliar sprays of calcium such as those used to treat blossom end rot.

Google:

calcium "anti-auxin"

"Even the FUMES of Roundup can cause damage to tomato plants, as I found out a few weeks ago."

Not from glyphosate. If you read the label, I bet that you find other active ingredients, maybe, Imazapic, Diquat, that are responsible. I frequently use glyphosate near my tomato plants without problem.

Don't ever tell me what I did or did not experience. IMO, you are only an internet troll, always looking for a pointless argument.

Not only did the tomato plant show signs of twisting stems and the creamy variegation of the new growth, but it did so w/in hours of being placed w/in inches of the weed that I sprayed near my driveway. The weed had been sprayed about two days earlier. I no longer use herbicide at all in my yard.

"Don't ever tell me what I did or did not experience. IMO, you are only an internet troll, always looking for a pointless argument."

1. I didn't tell you what you experienced. I questioned your interpretation of your experience. The original "Roundup" had only glyphosate as an active ingredient and later came out with "Roundup XXX" with additional active ingredients.

2. It is not pointless because you are spreading bad advise that potentially harms others.

3. I am doing you a favor by giving you the opportunity to improve your life by correcting your mistake by buying and using only pure glyphosate as the active ingredient. You are an ingrate.

No it is not NC, it is YOU are spreading bad advise that potentially harms others and once again only seeking to stir up controversy where none exists. By claiming you can "frequently use glyphosate near my tomato plants without problem" flies in the face of not only the original product label which clearly states in the Precautions/Restrictions - "NOT RECOMMENDED" around tomatoes but common knowledge. The damage done by such a practice is well documented - even in low dose applications - and supported by almost endless scientific research.

Just a few of the many legitimate resources on Glyphosate damage in tomato plants:

http://www.clemson.edu/extension/hgic/hot_topics/2010/07glyphosate.html

http://www.walterreeves.com/gardening-q-and-a/tomato-glyphosate-roundup-damage/

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/36/4/669.full.pdf

http://ncsupdicblog.blogspot.com/2011/04/herbicide-injury-to-tomatoes.html

Dave

So would a foliar spray of Calcium help the leaf curl/fix symptoms of 2,4-D? I'm assuming not - sounds too good to be true. Thanks again to everyone for their help.

I don't know Stephen. I would Google it and see what comes up.

The Roundup I used was not the XXX brand. So there you go.

The first link says, "Damage by glyphosate usually results from spray drift."

Second link: "It has physically drifted from somewhere"

Third link: "Drift from pesticides can kill or damage"

Forth link: "Be careful to prevent herbicide drift into home gardens, farms, or greenhouses where tomatoes are growing. "

"By claiming you can "frequently use glyphosate near my tomato plants without problem" flies in the face of not only the original product label which clearly states in the Precautions/Restrictions - "NOT RECOMMENDED" around tomatoes but common knowledge."

""NOT RECOMMENDED" is not the same as "RECOMMENDED NOT." That warning is for fools who can't control spray drift. The versions of Roundup with additional active ingredients are much more dangerous because the other active ingredients spread by rain and other water flowing over the ground. And, this can even happen 10 ft. away. This doesn't happen with glyphosate because it binds tightly with soil.

What is most remarkable is that you are not criticizing ncrealestateguy for not heeding the warning.

ncrealestateguy said,"the tomato plant show signs of twisting stems "

That is NOT a symptom of glyphosate poisoning which is evidence that he was not using pure glyphosate. And, I suspect there was water flow along the ground from one plant to the other.

To reiterate, I don't let glyphosate drift onto my tomato plants and I don't have problems.

If that is all you got out of those links then it is pointless for you to even read them. But hopefully not for others who read them and they are who i posted them for anyway.

And there is no reason for "criticizing ncrealestateguy". He already learned his lesson the hard way. Unfortunately many seem to have to learn that lesson the hard way every spring and the many discussions here about herbicide damage only support that claim.

Stephen - no. Your damage is not from glyphosate but from 2-4-D. Very different effect and type of plant damage. And as the one research article I linked above from Hort Science points out, when glyphoate is the cause even the use calcium sprays doesn't correct the real problems. The plants often remain stunted, have much higher incidences of blossom drop, lower levels of fruit set, increased fruit deformity, and reduced production.

Dave

I tried to rescue some tomato plants over the years that were damaged from roundup and 2-4,D, and learned that they just are never the same, no matter what you do. The symptoms that Dave lists above is my experience too. Even if I pruned out all the affected leaders. Even if the new growth looks normal, the plant just does not perform well.

"And as the one research article I linked above from Hort Science points out, when glyphoate is the cause even the use calcium sprays doesn't correct the real problems."

Nobody said calcium sprays help glyphosate damage.

BTW, don't pee into the wind.