Yes, EPDM liner is essentially your only choice. There really aren't any serious options. It certainly doesn't disintegrate.

EPDM is what most of the koi people use.

Since you are redoing everything, I recommend a bottom drain and a skimmer too. It will make maintenance much easier.

How does ine installma bottom drain? You would need to cut a hole into the liner... how do you seal it completely?

It's not that difficult. The commercial drains have nice big flanges but plenty of people have used standard bulkheads too. Polyurethane sealant is pretty fantastic stuff.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=spCM0-QfGJ8

is there an alternative to a bottom drain, like a special vaccum to clean the bottom?

Thanks for the video...

IMO there is no substitute for a bottom drain. Yes there are bottom drain fittings for over the top plumbing installations where you don't need to cut a hole in the liner but those installs tend to look really really awful. There are also pond vacuums but they are either very expensive or they don't work well. Besides, so much gunk collects at the bottom that if you don't have a plan to deal with it, it will become such a big gross task that you will put it off as long as possible.

IMO, failure to install a bottom drain is the single biggest mistake people make when building a water feature.

To keep the pond clean you have to manage the gunk at the bottom. If you don't have a bottom drain cleaning will involve drawing down the pond once a year and mucking the whole thing out. If you have a bottom drain you can just open a valve once a week and suck the gunk out with a small water change. You can even make that bottom drain part of your overflow plumbing so that everytime it rains the gunk flows out with the overflow water.

OK - with the weather starting to look like spring, time to get busy on the fish pond. (The fish survived the winter in an 80 year old, concrete laundry sink I turned into an auxillary water feature....) I'm going to call a couple of roofing contractors to see if they have any scraps/remnants of 45 or 60 mil EPDM.

But in researching the Firestone product, they also make "EcoWhite". Any advantages to going with the white EPDM? Sure, it would be cooler for the fish in the depths of summer, but would not provide solar gain at other times. The white would sure highlight the gunk....

Cheers

all roofing epdm has fire retardants that will kill all your fish.

Ahhh...good to know. Thanks....

Oh come on Nil. We've been through this over and over. Plenty of people use regular roofing liner with no problems. I suppose some of those folks may have washed off the liner a little while they made any needed cuts but I'm sure that many people have taken no cautions whatever. However, a small piece of liner from a pond store or site won't cost all that much anyway.

And while I'm picking on a know-it-all, I'm sure that a bottom drain is a nice idea and certainly for a small, bowl shaped pond under reconstruction, would be very useful. But, again, plenty of people survive just fine without them. For one thing, I find it hard to imagine how crud in a flat bottom pond would move close enough to the drain to make it work as expected. In any case, I don't have one and only drew my pond down (for a possible repair) once in nine years. I don't vacuum the pond or do anything else either, and my fish don't die and my water remains clear except when I remove and reset plants and therefore stir up all that supposedly lethal crud. I admit that I have a stream with huge plant root masses that catch some of that massive crud where I can remove some of it, but plenty settles back down there year after year without problems.

Lucky you. I have seen hundreds of ponds without bottom drains that were Hydrogen sulfide death factories from the foot of mulm at the bottom.

People can believe what they want. I've cleaned out too many crap filled ponds to ever recommend someone not have a bottom drain or a skimmer just for cleanliness regardless of whether they are going to have fish or not. Clients aren't typically happy with a stinking bog.

and you simply you returns to help direct the waste towards the bottom drains or aerate the drains.

Haven't checked this site in a long time. Hasn't changed a bit, just more dead. That was always the problem with forums. The know nothings stay, anyone with any experience gave up. Of course ponds don't need bottom drains. "Hydrogen sulfide death factories"??? There are millions of ponds in the world, and have been for centuries, without bottom drains all running just fine. Why even say something that is so blatantly false? Who do you think you are the President?

Anyone unlucky enough to run into this forum should get out asap. I am...again.

wow people resorting to name calling straight away. classy.

I have been keeping fish for 34 years. My first business was breeding fish when I was 10. By the time I went to college I had been caring for multi-acre ponds for years. In college I ran a pond and aquarium maintenance business that cared for everything from small water features to large saltwater reef tanks. I had quarantine facilities for both sw and fw. For the last 20 years I've been an architect and landscape architect and have designed a ton of formal water features and ponds. I would hardly call that knowing nothing.

It is always the same, the people that have had a couple ponds are pitted against the people that have maintained hundreds of ponds. The pros will almost always tell you to have a bottom drain, skimmer, and a pond designed around them even though it means less maintenance money for them.

It is definitely possible to have a pond without a bottom drain or a skimmer, but your life will be a lot easier with them.

I'm going to be doing a renovation on a formal fountain that was built without a bottom drain or skimmer in probably a month or two. The owner is sick of having to put on waders and shoveling out the muck once a year and wants to keep fish alive (he gave up killing stuff years ago). I'll document the process so people can see what can go wrong when you just have a hole filled with water. I wish I had smell-o-vision though because it's going to be nasty.

"Of course ponds don't need bottom drains. "Hydrogen sulfide death factories"??? There are millions of ponds in the world, and have been for centuries, without bottom drains all running just fine. Why even say something that is so blatantly false?"

You might want to re-read what I wrote. Nothing I have said is false, you are arguing against a strawman of your own making. I said that I have seen hundreds of ponds without bottom drains that were H2S death factories not that every pond lacking a bottom drain is a h2s death factory.

I have to respond to this discussion. My personal experience in southern Wisconsin has been that my 4' deep pond freezes over several inches deep. I put a small stock tank heater in one corner and have some open water all winter. No aeration. The squirrels and birds love it for daily drinks. Any gas can escape without concentrating enough to cause problems for the fish. The pond shape is somewhat like the state of Minnesota. The sides taper. I dug down 16" then made a 12" ledge, dug down another 16" another ledge and dug down another 16". Total depth about 48 The bottom is about 1' wide and about 9' long. I found a baitwell net that has a flat that when attached to a discarded mop handle allows me to remove most of the debris that gets past the skimmer. My 10 common goldfish are happy, but I am having to deal with a lot of color from 2 years of neglect do to a health concern. I made a carbon filter and am experiencing significant improvement in color. Water clarity is not a problem. Very clear. My system consists of a skimmer, prefilter, pump, filter, waterfall. I get good aeration and the sound of falling water. I get mesmerized by it.

i

This is my first time here in years and waterbug_guy is right about who stays and who gives up and moves on. A bottom drain is a waste of time and effort and won't keep the bottom of your pond clean anyway. Unless you have too many fish for the size pond you have take a cue from nature -- no bottom drains and no heaters in the winter. Fish figured out hundreds of thousands of years ago how to survive 0n their own.

Almost forgot what the original question was -- epdm is your best choice and is cheapest from your local roofing supply house. It will not kill your fish.

Chmuller, you literally have no idea what you're talking about. Furthermore, what is the obsession against bottom drains?

Oh good grief.

Once upon a time this was a great forum. By that I mean, it was a community in every sense of the word. There was a core group of regulars....ponders who were educated by their own experiences for the most part coupled with those who went before them who offered advice. They were happy to share said experiences including successes and failures with others and always quick to encourage...

How I miss those days. I was thinking about this place the other day and made a mental note to check in. Of course it slipped my mind and then today I got a notification that someone 'liked' a post I made near 4 yrs ago. It was good to read those old posts again. You know, from way back when...when this was a fun place to be! So I logged in to see who was still around. I saw a couple names I recognized and then THIS...

THIS NONSENSE is why I left yrs ago. A *know-it-all* showed up and proceeded to explain - in excessive boring detail, on darn near every post - why all the advice of the experienced ponders would not hold water. And by 'experienced ponders' I mean those who have puddles just for the sheer enjoyment of it. I'm here to tell you, these experienced ponders know.their.stuff.

My puddle is 17 yrs old this month. Yup, it small but it's perfect. A balanced combination of volume/plants/fish. I've never.not.once tested the water or added anything other than plants & fish. Neither do I have the infamous bottom drain and [horrors] the filter is a DIY number. The water is always crystal clear and my pets eat out of my hand and even perform tricks for me. Funny that, I managed all this without an educated pro with an ego the size of the sea. Ha. Remember those experienced ponders I mentioned above? THEY are why my puddle is a glory to behold. I miss them..

I don't give a rat's behind how much 'education' one has, i.e. how long one has worked for what company, at what age he started, how many projects he's managed, how big said projects are, which products will improve the problem of the day, how many new installs he had under his belt, how many renovations he's done (because, of course, the installer wasn't nearly so smart as he) or who's ego trumps the latest argument..

I miss the community here that once was. I can't be the only one, can I?

I'm with diggery, I think most of the best advice for a hobbyist ponder comes from other hobbyists. We don't have "pros" come in on a weekly basis to clean our ponds, scrub the rocks and trim the plants. We have other things to do in life so the ponds have to be kind of self sustaining. We know what has worked for us and what hasn't.

My obsession against bottom drains, Cody? Don't have one, I just know they don't work as described. How do I know? I have one. Why do I have one? Because when I was new at this and building my pond about 12 years ago I didn't know any better and listened to someone like you.