Can you plant a tree to anchor the bed and eventually give some shade? I don't know about the snow being thrown there... if that's any kind of problem....

I am afraid not. To benefit this area the tree would have to be planted on my driveway!

IMO, It can depend on climate etc. We here in MN have such long days in June that anything getting that much sun would burn in the long days of June if the temperature is high, like 90º. Guacomole has burned with a little less then what your describing. I watered it twice a day that year. The rest of the summer it would be fine. This year we had a lot of cooler, cloudy, rainy weather in the week containing the solstice so they probably would have been fine. So rain, temperature and length of day.

I have a Hosta bed on the side of my driveway and the Hostas get salted snow packed on them , a good 6 feet . Snow still until May here in my zone 4A. They are still looking good. I will take a pic tomorrow and post it.(my cell doesn't want to upload the pic.weird) lol they are of the "green kind". I call - Green machines, because they are rapid growers.

Beverly, what you say is true---it depends on the weather and length of day. This year probably would have been a good year. Our spring was wet and now temperatures have been a mixed bag. Last year we had hot temperatures and no rain for an extended period. It was a difficult season. So I guess it is hard to really know how things will turn out. Some years are better than others.

Shadow, glad to know that your hostas can survive the snow and salt. Are they in full sun?

along a driveway .. in the great white north ... also consider snow removal as an issue ...

snow is not really relevant.. but piled snow.. that could urn into an ice block might be ...

and road salt might also be an issue ...

how about a redbud ... any tree that would increase mid afternoon sun ... would be a plus ...

also .. anything moved now.. will probably get burned badly ... but if it comes up in the location in spring.. it will be more acclimated to the sunlight

ken

If not a tree, how about some more upright grasses like Karl Foerester or other tall perennials like Shasta daisies or cone flowers to provide shade? They would be getting taller right when you need the protection for the hostas.

My Cerveza is in 5-6 hours of sun at an elevation of nearly 6,000'. As hostas go, it's a good one for a sunny bed.

Thanks Ken. A red bud tree would be nice, but really, there is no benefit due to the angle of the sun. The snow most likely would not be an issue. We do shovel the driveway, but we don't use much salt. Sidewalk snow will be thrown on the road. I would wait until the end of the summer or spring to plant.

The grass is an interesting suggestion ConnieMay. I don't think I have room for the grass (do I?) because the bed would be quite narrow (20 feet x 4 feet).

I haven't seen many other forum members mention they have Cerveza, Don. Yours is very nice. Maybe we should let Don Rawson know so he can put it on his sun tolerant list!

Try it. The snow shouldn't be a problem unless there is a lot of salt, but if you water it thoroughly to wash the salt away early in the Spring it should be OK. Piles of snow will delay sprouting, so what. Whatever thrives stays. Whatever doesn't gets moved.

Jon

Sounds to me like the worst that could happen is you would be moving some large hostas twice and then you would have a bed of full sun perennials along your driveway. Of course a few years in full sun will make them really big, you might need a backhoe to move them the second time.

Good exercise. It's all good. Jon

OK. Now let me be a little more clear. I will mark the area for the new bed with a hose. I will have to hire and pay someone to dig out about 12 inches of soil (or more?). (I've got to have good drainage because of the snow buildup in winter.) I will have to pay to get a bin and have it hauled away. I will pay to have a load of good soil delivered to my home. I will also be looking into putting in some watering system for this area. (I already have enough to water by hand.) I would raise the soil level about six inches so in all there would be 18 inches of good media in total. I have four hostas I could plant there, and my husband and I could handle doing that.

I don't have much area around my home to plant hostas in ground. I have many in pots. Pots are a lot more work. I was really looking for a place to plant hosta. I am frustrated that the only place happens to be a full sun area. I have one smaller area that is a possibility, but it is under a birch tree. And the tree roots are quite dense there so I am afraid to do all the work and find the plants don't grow well in that location too.

I just looked around the neighbourhood and Karl Foerester looks to be about 1 foot wide generally - to ensure it stayed that size you might consider planting in a pot sunk in the ground. I cut the bottom off of the pot when keeping plants in bounds is my goal, but this may not be necessary.

Go for the hosta bed...I have planted my hosta in terrible soil and they probably get too much sun and they just keep coming back! :)

NHL, your plan is very ambitious and sound. It also sounds expensive. I would suggest that since you are considering raising the level 6 inches why not:

- Clear out the grass that is there.

- Till existing earth down 10-12 inches or so. Take your time, no hurry.

- Add amendments peat moss/composted cow manure to the tilled earth. This would result in 16 inches of perfect soil for planting at a cost of $50-60-75 (?) plus the cost of having it dug if you don't feel up to doing it over a period of time?

If the hostas don't thrive it certainly wouldn't be because of soil conditions.

I think for a little bit (relative term) more work (spread it out over 2-3 weeks maybe?), or at least a lot less expense, you will have what you want. You might even consider recycling the turf by flipping it upside down and letting it compost under the newly amended soil to save potential disposal costs. In my mind I can't see paying someone to dig up soil and more to take it away and then pay again to replace the soil.

That's my two cents, for what it's worth. In any event good luck with the project and we sure are looking forward to the results which will definitely be up to your high standards. Jon

I agree with Jon- flip the sod (or spray with RU), cover with "stuff" (compost, leaves, etc.) mulch.... plant in the spring. My soil is clay, things will still grow and thrive, and it can improve over time with planting and some additional organic material.

To keep costs down and eliminate necessity for removal of sod, how about prepping this area, leaving it to compost for the remainder of this season and completing it in the spring? My suggestion would be to:

• Outline your future bed with your hose as planned
• edge out the design all the way around so the shape is obvious (it makes it neat looking considering this is your front yard)
• place layers (3 sheets thick approx.) of damp newsprint over thoroughly soaked bed
• dump enough good garden soil on top of newsprint to achieve desired height of bed...it will settle and will require topping up in spring.

If your clay is heavy beneath the existing sod (mine starts about a foot down) tilling as Jon suggested would be a good way to go.

I built my front bed with this method (which kept growing larger each year, lol) years ago and have had no grass growing through at all. The newsprint hadn't quite decomposed entirely the following spring, nor had the sod but it was rotted enough that when I dug holes for the new plants, my shovel didn't meet much resistance at all.

Early on in the life of this bed I added a top dressing of compost one spring but that was it for fussing over it. The first and second year it received copious amounts of water (sprinkler very early in morning) but after that, not much. This is a full-sun bed and a few hostas like June, Antioch, Lancifolia, Rainbow's End, and a couple of Albomarginatas share growing space with other perennials and shrubs there. June gets the odd leaf that shows a bit of sunburn but if I notice it, I just pull it off. All hostas mentioned grow well in this full-sun site. No slug holes on any as it is too dry an environment for them.

However you decide to proceed with this bed, no doubt it will be an attractive and well-thought-out one!

The hosta have to go somewhere. Where else can you make room. Containers? Or else an editing spree to thin out any under performers. If that isn't possible - go ahead and have it dug. Paul's Glory doe OK for me in full sun, BTW - but every one I've tried in full sun have faded. The greens just aren't as green.

Sounds to me like you really want to do it - so just do it! I'd follow Jon's advice to build the bed, then plant next spring.

If the hostas fry, oh well. Just buy more, or try something else, is my philosophy. It's all good. A day spent in the garden is better than a day spent almost anywhere else.

Sorry for the delay in the photos, but here they are. It starts to snow here in Mid-Nov and melts away in mid-May. I have had this bed now for 6 yrs

3 NOID with Christmas tree in the middle and then 4 Frances Williams .Along the left edge (very small) is a June and Fire Island planted last year.

I have Sum and substance behind a Yes I will say it....Silver Maple tree. I have Bressingham Blue in front of the tree.

The 3 hostas above ......are the green machines. It's a NOID. They get the salty snow bank of a good 6 feet from the road and driveway. They get sun in the morning until 11 and then get sun from 2 on.

This is the other side of the driveway....Blue cadet gets full sun if the truck is gone (working)

NOID

So on that side , I have Iris and in between a hosta ......the twirly kind-no name and Blue cadet . They are exposed to sun all day.

I would most definitely suggest that you plant a tree for shade but I would use Hostas that you know will tolerate the sun and ones you can easily replace if you do lose them. That is why I used the "green machines" because I have 5 huge mature ones and 3 mature blue cadet.

I had sum and substance when I first got it in full sun but now it has shade from trees planted over the years.

I would give it a try........if it works . Bonus. If it doesn't, you can learn what you did wrong.

Good Luck NHL

Sandra

Jon (and Windymess) you've given me something to think about---tilling the soil and adding amendments rather than removing soil and purchasing new. My thought was that if I purchased new soil to prepare the bed, I would be laying down the best foundation that was possible. And if there was a lot of snow in winter, the soil have enough drainage. I also have to wonder how much clay soil there is under the grass.

At one of my horticultural meetings, I remember a guest speaker from a garden center saying that one could just apply pine bark (or was it composted pine bark) or clay soil to improve the texture. I have found a place that will deliver composted pine bark and could mix that into the soil. I would also want to add compost or manure and peat moss.

ConnieMay, the grasses are a thought. I am familiar with the Karl Foerster grass. I just don't know how to place it without it looking like I planted it there to block the sun!

Beverly, nice to hear your honest opinion. Sometimes I have to ask myself "what the hell am I doing?" Well, I am trying to find more hosta real estate, but I think I really want to continue to allow some of my bigger ones to grow. They will look quite different with all that sun. Maybe I won't like them as much?

Sandra, thank you for all those photos! I see what you mean about the hostas being in full sun. That is amazing! Unfortunately, a tree won't help in my case because of the angle of the sun and the driveway.

mbug, " A day spent in the garden is better than a day spent almost anywhere else." I love that!

Looks like Ken was right, just throw them on the driveway.

Yes Karin, we are all trying to find more hosta real estate! I am glad you found some. And thank you for the pictures. You did a good job!

But I am still unsure about whether this new bed would make me happy. I am going to rack my brain to figure out other options.

If I had any nerve Jon, I would try throwing them on the driveway! Beats all the work the project would entail!

Your's a much bigger decision to make, the bed being 30x8 feet...better wait until you have the right feeling...

I had a lot of hostas this year in much more sun than usual and it has been very hot here, but they do surprisingly well and the colors are gorgeous. Only problem is that I can not mix with too much blue ones as they have more problems with sun, but the yellow and plain green thrive on the conditions...I did carry a lot of water for them:-)

NHL, my friend, sometimes we spend a lot more energy thinking and worrying about something than it does to do it. Jon

Me, I would do the bed. Period. Anything but grass.

Then I would try hosta, but if not, gosh, there are so many other plants I love and need space for... I would love to have sunny bed ...

NHL- I had to both laugh and confess when I read your statement: "Sometimes I have to ask myself 'what the hell am I doing?'"

I could have left this whole back yard in grass and a few trees. This was supposed to be our lower maintenance home. I keep digging myself in deeper though- both literally and figuratively. And I ask my husband: "am I completely crazy?"

But then we talk about it and I realize we're only 60, we're not feeble, I've been a plant person my whole life and I enjoy it, it's good exercise (except in a heat wave), it improves and adds value to the property, it's pretty to look at - for us and the neighbors. What the heck... and I also have to come to the conclusion that if I didn't do it, I'd just spend a lot of time thinking about doing it, wishing I'd done it, and trying to figure out how to do it.

I do hope I get things a bit established in the next few years though, so I can just enjoy the work out there and not feel like I'm stressing and killing myself. We got ourselves in a bind this year with the scope of the project - and the unexpected other obligations. I kinda wish I'd not bought so many plants until it was done. Trying to keep them alive and getting them in the ground (in my "free time") has been a challenge. A crystal ball would have been helpful!

I have thin topsoil on top of clay on top of shale, so it can be tough to dig in. I've been extremely impressed with tilling in pine bark fines (and gypsum) - although I'm going to need new tiller blades after hitting so many rocks. Within a year the soil is a nice crumbly, rich, dark planting utopia (OK, that may be a little overboard). Initially, I also used peat moss and compost, but those didn't really seem that necessary to me. I'm very happy with the results of the pine bark fines in clay soil, so I've been using a lot of it. Perhaps the peat moss will keep the soil friable longer.

I have a lot of shade and not quite out of room, so I'm still planting sun loving plants in the sunny parts. Lots to choose from and they make me happy too. As my Hosta get large I may be singing a different tune.

Jo! I somehow missed your post! I am so glad to hear your comments! I agree with you that preparing the bed this year and planting the next would be the way to go. I like the newspaper method to kill the grass. I guess it depends on how much decent soil I have below it---whether I just put down the newspaper or till. Loved reading your experiences with the full sun beds! No slugs---how nice that would be!

Karin, thanks for your thoughts. I do want to begin this project with the right frame of mind----excited and energetic to get through the work with positive results.

Jon, "sometimes we spend a lot more energy thinking and worrying about something than it does to do it" That is right on Jon! Unfortunately, I am one of those "thinkers," and I have had to come to terms with that (I am getting too old to deny it any longer)! My hope is that I am going to come up with some realization or something I hadn't considered before which would give me the the final push to go ahead or cancel the project! (Dream on girl!) LOL

Lindalana, I know a sunny bed does sound good. There are a lot of plants that require sun. But since I love hosta, it's really all I want! (That makes me a serious hostaholic---yikes!) If hosta didn't work out, my second choice would be to grow a vegetable patch. But I am not going to do that on my front lawn!

Windymess,Sometimes when I ask myself "what the hell am I doing?" I laugh too! And then I get a moment of serious contemplation---and that's when I say I must be crazy! (I don't even dare ask my husband or anyone else whether that's a possibility! LOL) But that lasts but a moment and then all is good again!

I am glad that you were able to do such a wonderful job of creating your garden. I know exactly what you mean when you said you would just be thinking about your project if you hadn't done it. It adds value to your property but most of all makes you happy! Oh, I know it's so much work---but what beautiful garden is not work? The foundation is the most important I think, and you have done so well! If you lose a few plants, you can replace them!

Steve, so glad you weighed in about the pine bark fines. Definitely a consideration for a clay bed!

__________________________

Build an arbor and have grapes or roses climb up and across. Until vines fill in use window screening across the top of arbor for shade. Make as simple or ornate as you like. Maybe a bench too.

See link for ideas Arbor/pergolas

Just think, Hostas in shade and no tree roots. Nirvana

p.s. My garden is in my front yard. Local farmers are tickled and always wave when I'm out there. :)

An arbor sounds delightful pandora! That was a great idea only it won't help me. The way the sun swings around, I would need to have the grapes or roses climb up on my viewing side to block some of the sun. Then only my neighbor would see my hostas! Thanks for trying!

If the majority of my garden were in my front yard, the neighbors would consider me crazy! I'd be checking my hostas, watering them, ammonia spraying them, taking photographs of the plants and leaves and flowers etc.! Yes, I would be the crazy lady on the block!

I have a dill plant that's topping out around four feet tall, and it's grateful for every bit of sun it gets. Visually it's not heavy like a grass, but it does filter some sun. You don't need a full sunblock, just enough to give your big babies some relief. Maybe a few of them planted among the hostas would help and look ok.

Kathy, you reminded me of years ago when I grew fennel amongst my hostas just for the texture appeal. I like your appealing suggestion! :-)

May we see a pic of the area?

That is a creative suggestion Kathy! I am not familiar with the growing of dill. Would it be something that would require staking?

Not that great a picture but I think it will give you an idea of the area I am talking about. The white area would measure approx. 20 feet long x 4-5 feet wide.

And you can see the two trees which are in my backyard ( huge, mature Sugar Maples)!

So, why can't you plant a smallish tree in the middle... like a Redbud?

I have two Eastern Redbuds each about 20 feet across and absolutely nothing grows under them. Yes they have been there for a long time.

Jon - well, that's a bummer.... I just planted a whole bunch of hostas under/around redbuds. And actually, my Brother Stefan was under one of them and it grew very well. I just recently moved him to another location and planted m. Aureomarginata where he was.

I think if you planted the tree, and planted the hostas/companions soon after, they would grow up together and claim their own spaces.

NHL, I went out and tasted it and it's a bulbless fennel, not dill. One of the four stems has fallen down, I think one of those lily stakes would be all it would take to stabilize it.

Windymess, I can plant a tree in the middle, but the shade I will get from the tree will be minimal due to the angle of the sun. I will post a diagram later to explain. I don't know about the roots of a Redbud, but I think there is a big difference (in the roots) between a mature tree and an immature one and therefore the success with plantings.

A bulbless fennel? How interesting, Kathy!

Windy, here is a photo of my 2 Eastern Redbuds with a 5 gallon bucket for scale. There are some weeds under there but it is a pretty dense canopy. Hard to see where one ends and the other begins. Hundreds of tiny seedlings this year. I see my weather station needs to be plumbed. Jon

Jon - I see what you mean... those have obviously been there quite a while. Mine are pruned/limbed up like trees and create more of a true canopy. I just finally got all my hostas planted, and under the redbuds I ran into a few roots, but it wasn't bad. My trees are only a few years old though. We'll see how they do.

NHL - Maybe it's a place that would be better for just some sun-loving shrubs....?

Shrubs you say windymess? Oh no! I NEED room for hostas!

Here is a diagram to show you the location of the sun/new bed/house (not to scale):