I’d find another “cabinet guy”, or better, a well-known cabinet manufacturer of high quality. This is a huge expense, and for that amount of money, you should get the cabinets you want. In fact, it’s making me uneasy that your contractor is saying what he is saying. Red flag. Why are you using your contractor’s cabinet guy? Why are you using this contractor?

I agree with the above. Also, here is a photo of a drawer in inset framed cabinetry. See how narrow it is, it just fits the napkins. Also look at its interior height which is less than frameless.

friedajune - is it losing extra though because it’s inset?

The cabinet guy is a local custom cabinet maker and we just visited the showroom today. They aren’t even set up to build frameless. Our contractor wasn’t necessarily pushing me, but the cabinet maker was trying to convince me it won’t make a big difference. I disagree though. Wanted to see what you guys thought, to see if I am way off base.

Any cabinet builder that says they don't do frameless is really saying they don't have the skills to do frameless. Time to find a new guy.

They say their shop is only set up for framed.

Mshutterbug - the photo I posted above is actually not an inset drawer. I typed the word "inset" by mistake. It is framed cabinetry though.

mshutterbug - did you see this thread? I actually wondered if it was yours under a different user name. https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5204349/frameless-vs-framed-eclipse-by-shiloh

Cabinets are the most expensive fixed, home asset. The only reason to go with the current guy, is if the frameless builder you find next, uses particle board and masonite. RUN from those dudes. The difference is traditional vs. contemporary/Scandanavian/European I suppose. If you are not building a traditional home, and you want the contemporary feel for your house, you can find a frameless maker somewhere. Ask the HOUZZ folks. The budget and your mindset have to get together. And again, don't settle for CHEAP, but frameless in style. Budget, Quality, Style. Do what makes you happy, especially if this is going to be your Forever House(for a decade or so). There is nothing prettier and easier to maintain than frameless kitchen cabinets built with quality products and materials. There is nothing uglier, than frameless cabinets of poor craftsmanship and material construction. This is a major part of the expense of your home construction. I hope it works out. Keep us posted.

Thanks guys!
@benjesbride - that’s funny! Nope, not pseudo-me lol, but a timely thread for me so
I’ll spend some time reading the replies!
Talked to our GC and he says his primary concern is making us happy, so he’s sending a different cabinet maker he works with (who apparently will do frameless.) I’m also pricing out barker because we’ve bought from them before and I like the quality. But I’m not sure how that would work exactly. My hope is that the other cabinet maker will offer just what we want. I’m sure I’ll keep you posted. (Whether you like it or not lol!)

Smart GC if a cabinet maker can’t make frameless cabinets he needs to get with the times.

Much better experience with the new cabinet person...frameless is back on the menu. :)

You will love frameless. I cannot understand a cabinetmaker stating their shop isn't set up for frameless. How would it be set up differently? Sounds like a BIG cop out to me for someone lacking the skill set to plan and execute them.

What are they?

We had frameless in our last kitchen and I swore I’d never go back to framed. So I’m really happy it’s working out!

Frameless take specialized tools, fasteners, and skills. Framed cabinets are much easier. Furniture board is standard for frameless, and preferred. With the correct joinery. The two methodologies are not coming out of the same shop unless he has a really big shop and a substantial capital investment in equipment and employees.

I do not agree with Wannabath. That is an old-fashioned, dated viewpoint. I've had frameless cabinets in different kitchens and they were great, and held up beautifully to extreme use, loaded shelves, children and pets, and looked beautiful. Framed does not mean better. I've also seen framed cabinets that did not hold up with bowed shelves, doors awry, and bad finishes. The bottom line is that there are poor quality cabinets in the market for both framed and frameless. If you buy from a good manufacturer or carpenter, the quality of the cabinet and its longevity will be good regardless if it's a framed or frameless style.

Frameless though will give you more space than framed - you think 1-1/4" per drawer or shelf won't matter, but it does. Take your dinner plate, measure its diameter, and look at a framed upper cabinet and see if the plate will fit. A standard 12" deep framed upper cabinet will only give you 10-3/4" depth.

I agree with Sophie. It makes perfect sense to me that a small shop would be set up for one or the other. And I have to say that 1 1/4” adds up fast throughout an entire kitchen. I also wasn’t super impressed with the overall quality of what they had on display compared to what I saw with the other place. And the framed one had a lot of extra spaces between cabinets for some reason. This actually meant fewer overall cabinets in a couple instances.

The worst thing about my home is the framed custom cabinets. I lost about half or more of the storage space compared to frameless cabinets. Most of the cabinet space is wasted where I have drawers and the shelves are just as bad. I put in pull out drawer in the base cabinet shelves. I can only put in small pull out drawers because the doors are smaller than the cabinet. There is so little space for a drawer. And its a busy look.

The disadvantages extend to the cost and appearance of painting my orange hued maple cabinets. If there were frameless I would just have to paint the doors, not huge unwieldy cabinet faces that have to match the doors. I understand carpenters like the idea of cabinets as quality furniture. To me its unobtrusive storage that blends into the room. Heavy, quality wood furniture with face frames that are supposed to be decorate your house are dated too. Armoires, china cabinets, fancy desks, bookcases, etc. Hardly anyone wants that stuff anymore either.

we went with frameless, all wood (meaning no particle board or MDF for door panels, etc.-which some places do) and they're really pretty so far-not fully installed. It does take more time and tinkering it seems to perfectly match up all the seams and make sure everything is perfectly strait and tightened correctly, as your eye is more likely to catch imperfections here and there than with full overlay type-which seems to be more forgiving (our master vanity is full overlay). I did notice that the bottoms of our drawers weren't as quality as I expected, they'll be fine, but not as solid as our vanity cabinets (different company)...anyone else experience this with frameless cabinets?

That would be SO frustrating okaycoral. Yes, I was pretty surprised when the cabinet maker showed me his drawings. I did my own mockup using ikea software (frameless) as well as on grid paper. I was able to fit in more cabinets than he was. He had so many little spacers and things. I know we need spacers between walls etc. But he had them even between cabinets. And that doesn't even touch on the fact that the interior storage is reduced! And frameless can be just as sturdy and durable as framed. I agree with you - it can really look dated. In some cases I think it works, and if a person loves the look, that's great. But it's not for me, so I'm glad we were able to change course.

emlouhall - I think there is a huge variety of quality in frameless, as with framed. I am really hoping ours will be good. My husband built much of our last kitchen and it was solid as a rock. He didn't want to build the drawers or doors and drawer fronts so we bought those from Barker. We also bought a couple of ikea pantry cabinets because they were the right size. This kitchen we have a general contractor and he has a cabinet supplier, so I'm working with their KD to finalize all the details. But I really liked having total control over quality when my husband built the cabinets. So, my fingers are crossed that this kitchen will be as solid, functional, and pretty as our last!

@msshutterbug-you are so right about the spacers and fillers-it's the easy button for them, there were so many items that I pointed out that could be done to make more room. I know it's hard work, and yes fillers are needed-especially in an old home like ours where nothing is level. But you really do have to be your own advocate on housing projects and design, pushy is better than regretful!

Don’t go over the top into hyperbole and melodrama here. Frameless only gets you approximately 15% more usable space than framed when you count a whole kitchen. It’s no where near 50%.

You’ll have the same need for fillers in a framed vs frameless design when using lines with limited stock cabinet sizes. Like everyone’s beloved IKEA, which is way way limited. That is the same for framed or frameless. If you need a 27”W cabinet, and all that is available is a 24” or a 30”, and the 30” is too big, you’ll be using the 24” and a 3” filler in either a stock framed or frameless.

Custom of either framed or frameless doesn’t eliminate the need for clearances and accounting for out of square walls. But in custom (or semi custom) framed, you can do extended stiles and not have a seam. You’ll always need a filler and a seam with frameless.

Budget US based lines will generally be framed. And if you can get all of the sizes you need for your kitchen, and they offer a color that you like, you can’t beat a US built KCMA certified budget line for value, regardless of the loss of 15% space. You can make up for that loss by having far more usable sizes for the cabinets that they do have. Like 39”H or 33”H uppers instead of just 30”H, 36”, and 42” H ones. And that right there is where you get that 15% back from your stock frameles cabinets.

Either way, a good KD will more than make up for any cabinet lines shortcomings with their creativity and experience. It’s even more important to have a good KD when the space is small or the options limited.

I'm all about the melodrama and over the top hyperbole. Bring it on!! Woo hoo!!!!

Kitchen Designers can be a valuable resource (and I certainly appreciate all the advice that designers here freely give). And if you have zero experience with remodeling, no interest or inclination to learn, no time to deal with it, then hiring a KD probably makes sense. But DIY is a viable option for many, and I think can sometimes produce a better result. I tell you what - my husband has been able to make so many of my remodeling visions come true. Sometimes he will initially say, "That can't be done." and most designers would stop there and look for the easy way out. But not my husband. We put our heads together... I get online and spends hours and hours looking, getting inspired, and then I take my vision to him and he makes it happen. As a photographer I am extremely picky about details. He's not really a detail guy and would be perfectly content living with cardboard boxes as cabinets lol, but if I tell him exactly what I want, he makes it happen. We've had contractors and designers come into rooms that he's done and be absolutely shocked that it was DIY.

And seriously, given any choice at all, I will take frameless over framed any day of the week.

emlouhall - yes, absolutely! I think sometimes it's ...I want to say laziness, but I don't think that's exactly right. Easier is probably the better word ;) And I agree completely. If you don't advocate for it, they will take the easy route. I'm the same way as a mama to a child with special needs. I'm pushy when I need to be and not willing to accept the status quo without exploring every option. But that's going off on a tangent. Bottom line - I definitely think we need to be pushy at times.

Frameless can be harder to install. It's harder to get them square, especially the base cabinets and it's best if you have experience installing frameless cabinets instead of having an installer that mostly does framed cabinets try to put in frameless. I'm with Sophie, it doesn't make hardly any difference for door cabinets and only a small amount for drawers.

However, if you've got a kitchen with a lot of narrow base cabinets, frameless makes sense. Buy quality, get experienced installers.

Thanks Carolina! It may not make a huge difference in terms of percentage, but it sure makes a big difference in terms of my level of frustration. I just much prefer the easy access of frameless, and if I'm going to pay for cabinets, I want every possible inch to be usable :)

We build a lot of frameless cabinets for commercial applications, but it's out of particle board and I wouldn't recommend it for home use. It's such a good feeling to spend money on a project and have it turn out the way you want it to. I did that just recently with new LVP and just grin every time I walk into the room. I hope you get that satisfaction, too.

Frameless can give you way more than 15% With my kitchen cabinets I would get 100% more usable space. I'm comparing base cabinet frameless drawers compared to face frame doors with pull out retrofit trays. Two narrow pull out trays compared to 3 wide pull out drawers holding the same height items.

For the cabinet makers I would ask are you primarily building pretty furniture or are you building convenient storage? Base cabinet shelves should be a thing of the past. No one wants to get on their hands and knees to stack and retrieve items on a base cabinet shelf.

A stile is only 1 1/2”. 3” “loss” for both sides. Frameless cabinets use 3/4” material, making the “lost space” be 1 1/2” from the nominal cabinet size. For a 24” drawer base, framed vs frameless, that’s 10% “lost” space. For a 36” drawer base, that’s 6%. Even for a itty bitty 12” cabinet, that’s only 12%. But anyone who stuck nothing but 12” cabinets in a kitchen should be shot anyway, framed or frameless.

Some homeowners are very particular about any extra space they can squeeze out (no matter how small). Sophie Wheeler had a lot of good info and was right that custom cabinets + a good kitchen designer will make the biggest difference in maximizing space efficiency.

Design and function-wise, I do prefer frameless construction for full-overlay doors. My uncle is a cabinetmaker and very pragmatic; he only does frameless cabinets (by choice). Find yourself a cabinetmaker who does a lot of frameless and you should be happy with the results!

You can't measure in only one direction. Face frames waste space from side to side AND from top to bottom. The top to bottom space is even more wasteful as a %, especially for the shallow drawers that are the most useful. I can't get enough drawers for utensils, cutlery, spices, etc. I don't want stuff piled on top of stuff in my drawers. I want things one layer deep where I can see everything and put things away quickly.

My 24" wide cabinets allow just 22% of the space for storage. I think IKEA an 24" IKEA 4 drawer cabinet would provide twice the room. Maybe my face frame cabinets are especially bad. Here are the measurements: I have four drawers, 2 with interior dimensions 19X3X19.5 and 2 with 19X5X19.5. 3878 cubic inches. The cabinet is 24X24X31 17,856 cubic inches.

Exactly okaycoral! I was pretty frustrated to discover I can barely store anything in the depth of upper drawers in current (framed) kitchen vs my previous (frameless). And in terms of efficiency, those frames can make use and cleaning very inefficient and frustrating. And let’s say it truly is only 1.5” per drawer, that’s a heck of a lot of storage space when multiplied out for an entire kitchen with lots of drawers.

Again, your math is incorrect. And you’re cheating, as you’re not counting actual potential usable space. The losses from the various styles of side vs.bottom mount glides cancel each other out. One loses you height and the other width. That is a virtual wash for drawer vs drawer. Only the additional rail in a framed drawer base is relevant to the calculations.

In a 4 drawer base, you have 3 1 1/2” rails for a total of 4 1/2”. The actual interior usable height in a base cabinet is right at 29”. That is a 15% loss in vertical space from frameless to framed.

Combine the two calculations, and a framed 4 drawer 24” drawer base has 21% less accessible to use space than frameless. A 36”, 20%. Again, the loser is the small cabinets. A 12” The frameless has 28% more usability possible. That is assuming that all are 4 drawer bases.

In the world at large, drawer bases occupy much less kitchen space than they do on GW kitchens.

Again, I prefer frameless cabinets. And drawers. But I’m not going to not correct incorrect assumptions, or ridiculous statements like 50% more space. Reality does not bear that out.

Oh Sophie. Not interested in debating math lol!
Bottom line - frameless provide additional storage space, are more efficient for use and cleaning, and are MY personal preference. You do as you want.

You can’t ignore the math and just believe what you want on faith. There’s also the bottom line. Frameless are usually around 20%-30% more costly than similar framed cabinets in mid grade lines. When dollars are at stake, the amount of storage per dollar will usually favor framed cabinets.

I’m not ignoring the math. The math clearly says frameless win in terms of storage. Zero faith required.

Where I live in California homes cost $400 - $1,000 per sf. By that math a single 24X24 base cabinet sits on $1200+ of real estate. These kind of dollars favor frameless cabinets. Also no one wants to walk very far find something or put it away. There is limited space in the kitchen's "golden triangle" where everything is close at hand for the cook and bottle washer.

Frameless ae now more expensive to put into my new build/remodel. I choose them becaue I like the look bettr and I hate the bar in the mddle of the cabinet. Its about a 5 to 10 thousand upgrade. Cant Wait!