pattyw5

Looks like rrd but is not

This growth reminds me of the photos of Rock and Roll that was posted a while back. This rose is Home Run and at least once a year or more she gives me fits with its new growth. Which by the way sometimes looks odder than this. This is one of a few canes that started growing the other day. Grew like 8 inches in half a day. These new canes can often resemble rrd.




Comments (37)

  • Patty W. zone 5a Illinois
    Original Author
    last year

    Well now the photos are gone. Trying again




  • Patty W. zone 5a Illinois
    Original Author
    last year
    last modified: last year

    This photo thing is really getting annoyin. :-)

  • BenT (8a Dallas, TX)
    last year

    I can see both sets of photos now. It’s a sad state of affairs when everytime a rosebush produces a beautiful healthy flush of new growth, I have to examine it 3 times with critical eyes to make sure it’s not RRD. But that’s what I’m doing 9 months out of the year. That’s some very nice new growth you have, I’m looking forrward to all our fall blooms.

    Patty W. zone 5a Illinois thanked BenT (8a Dallas, TX)
  • jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.
    last year

    I can also see both postings pics...


    Nice growth Patty even though it scares us when we see odd growth happening...

  • Patty W. zone 5a Illinois
    Original Author
    last year
    last modified: last year

    Unfortunately the first set showed up after I added a new set in the comment.

  • flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
    13 days ago

    Patty, or anyone who knows about these things, what is it about this cane that says this isn't RRD? I would have thought it is. I'm planning to remove a rose tomorrow that has a cane exactly like these photos. The rose is Occhi di Fata from RU, and was planted last year. It looks fine except for one cane that looks like the photos above.

    The puzzling thing is, there are several acres between homes and I don't think anyone in the area gardens. RRD has not been found in WA until fairly recently, and none in this area.


  • witchygirrl6bwv
    13 days ago

    Flowers fwiw I wasn't anywhere close to any other yards in SC when rrd blew in my yard. I think it was on the bag roses I planted or blew in from pretty far away. I've never had it here. *knock on wood. My heart does a little blip when I see any oddity now.

  • Patty W. zone 5a Illinois
    Original Author
    13 days ago

    Flowers’, I just saw this question.I’m going to think on the answer for a bit. I will get back with you today. Not totally sure my answer will make any since but I’ll try.

  • Patty W. zone 5a Illinois
    Original Author
    13 days ago
    last modified: 13 days ago

    Ok, this answer may get long and I apologize if it does. I stopped answering post here because I don’t always articulate my thoughts all that well these days. Even though I know an answer I still must communicate it well enough to be understood.

    The first part of the of the answer comes from growing many many roses. I never saw this particular growth back in the day. Yes I had seen rrd/rrv and had roses that were sickened with the virus.

    The photos are deceptive because you can see that in some places there are as many as eight laterals growing from one growth node. Roses do not do this. The first time I saw this alarm bells rang but I waited till the next morning to cut it off. Now that’s not like me to wait. Wisdom should have told me something but I wasn’t paying attention. True rrd explodes in growth. This was exactly the same as it was when first noticed.

    The true root of the problem in my humble opinion is Tissue Culture and GROWTH HORMONES. Our wonderful creators of baby roses found a way to make lots and lots of money by mass producing our little rose plants by using tissue culture. Yes it works but also is capable of causing problems. Then there are all the wonderful new miniature/dwarf plant. Ever notice that in a year or two they are no longer dwarf.

    Off topic for a moment. I’d like to mention this in case someone is interested. Northland Rosarium was the last place left that I know of, where you can still get a cutting of the original Easy Elegance Sunrise Sunset. It is a marvelously beautiful shrub that grew as an upright bush. In my zone the height was around 3ft high and 3 to 4ft around. Always covered in flowers even on the side not getting direct sunlight. Now however I have not spoken with Carol the owner of Northland in a while now as my yard is full. If wishing to get this original gem I would email them to inquire if you would still be able to get a cutting in from this rose. It is worth paying extra for especially if you live in the north.

    Ok so back to the weird growth. I was kind of dumb for a while not realizing where so many of those roses at the big box stores were coming from duh tissue culture. They also aided in putting a lot of mom and pop nurseries out of business. So I blame tissue culture for many of these oddities.

    Basically learned it wasn’t rrd/rrv by not cutting it off but watching it for a day or two. Had it been rrd it would have gotten much worse very quickly. Many times when there are so many shoots in one spot they don’t grow anyway. So I end up snapping it off. There is likely not enough nutrition in that area to support the growth of that many shoots.

    In the case of a single cane that looks this way, watch the thorns. Even though it looks hyperthorny they will by evenly spaced around the cane. Even though the exuberant or fast growing cane may look too red or too thorny and seems to grow too fast. It will still have certain characteristics. It will not be larger then where it grew from. It will not be growing out of the end of a rose cane. You know it kind follows the rules so to speak. Oh and sometimes when it’s growing fast it doesn’t grow leaves right away or they take longer to open. When they do thou they will look normal.

    Did I answer any question for you? Did I address the issue? You can always message me than I’ll know that you have a picture posted that needs looked at. I am definitely not always right but l’ll try the best that I can..I don’t wish to jinks myself. And I am very quick to cut out anything suspicious but I have not lost a rose to rrd in a very long time. Knock on wood.

  • rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)
    13 days ago

    There may be nothing about the snapshots that say it’s not rrd.

    But it’s not unexpected ( as Patty pointed out in her opening post).


  • rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)
    13 days ago

    Sometimes serial observations are necessary.

  • flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
    13 days ago
    last modified: 12 days ago

    Patty, I just now saw both your posts. I have not removed my rose yet. As far as organizing one's thoughts, haha, I hear ya! so I doubly appreciate the long reply. I'm taking notes as I read.

    Ok, here's what mine is doing. Not growing fast. Same height as the day I first saw it, slightly taller than the majority of the other canes.

    It is thicker than the other canes, which are all very slender, but it is no thicker than the area at the base from where it emerged.

    It has looked less red and less thorny every day. All the little hairy spines seem to have diminished. The cane is starting to turn green.

    The thorns are shaped like the thorns on the normal cane.

    That all sounds good, but it still looks too different from a normal cane.

    Unless you tell me to give it the heave ho immediately, I will watch it a little longer. After last night's swirling windstorm, my other roses are toast, anyway, if it is RRD.

    It's between a magnificent bush and a struggling, gopher eaten runt. But, if I understand correctly, it could show up on the far end of the garden instead of in the same bed.

    I've looked at an RRD map, and apparently the virus has been found in central WA. At least I won't have the distinction of being the one who introduced it to the state.

    This rose overwintered in the garage for 2 years. i didn't do a good job of settling them in last year - health wise, I wasn't able to. So, the roses were all smooshed together. I hope the mites are not active during winter. I am so grateful for your thorough and thoughtful answer. I appreciate the time this took out of your day.

    Here are some photos I took when I discovered it. I didn't take any photos from the other side, but I can if that will help. I thought it had been just a few days, but it's been over a week.




    A normal cane on the bush...


    Every time I look at it, I feel a little sick. Not that I am so enthralled with this rose, but the thought of it spreading to all my roses is a horrible thought.

    Again, Patty, thank you so much.

    And, thank you witchygirrl and Ben and Rifis for your input. This is a whole new area for me.

    Jim, nice to see you posting. Hope you are doing well.

  • Patty W. zone 5a Illinois
    Original Author
    12 days ago

    All that I can say is if that were mine I would get that out of my garden as fast as possibl. I don’t know what others might say but that is scary and has many things that appear to be wrong with it. Plus it is very tall now and may be too late to just cut that cane off. I can explain more if you wish but I’m posting this so that you can see my opinion. If you there is someone to help you cut it into smaller pieces than gently drop it into a bag. When done I walk mine into the garage before attempting to do anything else with it. I’m so sorry.

  • rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)
    12 days ago

    That’s not what I expected patty to say. Especially as flowers noted all indicators are going in the right direction.

    I advocate continued close observation.

  • flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
    12 days ago

    Patty, thank you for the quick assessment and reply. I will take care of it this evening. I was hoping for the best, but prepared for the worst. Until I happened upon your photos on this thread, I didn't even consider that it might be saved, so I'm not terribly surprised or disappointed.

    Instead of cutting it up, is it ok if I put a garbage bag over the plant, secure it at the base, and cut if off there, then dig out the roots, trying to get every single piece? I don't think that will be too hard since it was only planted as an own root last year. It's not big and bushy and I'm sure I can do it without it touching the outside of the bag. I will clean my loppers and and shovel with bleach.

    You can bet I will be inspecting every rose I have daily from now on. Now I know how so many of you felt losing roses to RRD. Some forum members lost prized bushes. I'm not attached to this one, but it's still heartbreaking and maddening. It feels as though there's a creepy predator hiding among the roses and we're helpless against it.

    Rifis, I admit I got my hopes up just a little, but I would rather get it over with than prolong the danger.


  • Patty W. zone 5a Illinois
    Original Author
    12 days ago

    Yes that’s a good way to remove it. I just usually can’t get a bag over it. I hate speaking up. Please remember that this is my opinion only. It’s just that there is a leaf set that I see off to the top right. Where the leaves are not opposing. The distance between leaf set on a rather tall cane is not uniform and as it grows it’s getting thornier. There are a few other issues but I do wish I new the name of the rose.

  • henry_kuska
    12 days ago

    Before you try cutting it up, you could try spraying it with something like hair spray to "glue" any possible mites to the canes.

  • flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
    12 days ago

    Patty, I absolutely do want your opinion. I don't know anything about RRD except that I don't want it. The rose is Occhi di Fata. The bush is young and small enough that getting a bag over it will not be a problem. I can roll it up a bit, then roll it down over the bush, so the bush doesn't touch the outside of the bag. I'll seal the roots in another bag and take both directly to the trash.

    Henry, I remember reading that in my searching for answers. I'm glad you reminded me. I will use hair spray.

    Daylight has gotten away from me, so this operation will take place first thing in the morning when it's still. It's a little breezy right now, anyway.

  • Patty W. zone 5a Illinois
    Original Author
    12 days ago

    Flowers, how would you feel about asking this on the antique forum with your photos. Since Occhi Di Fata had reddish stems normally and prickly on the top. I still don’t like it but I respect BenT and rifis’s opinions. They seem to favor watching. Did any of your leaves on the bottom of that cane open looking normal. Does any of the cane down lower have normal color yet?

  • Patty W. zone 5a Illinois
    Original Author
    12 days ago

    Sorry but I just noticed something that I missed. Your comment that the cane was not larger than at the bottom than where it emerged. Rose canes and laterals don’t typically fatten as they grow. I also apologize for doubtIng myself last night. My first thought was likely the same as yours. That it did not look good but as you wait you begin to doubt that first thought. So you wait for it to do something. Either looking better or much worse.

    It’s not hideous looking as rrd is but it is odd looking and unexpected in a spot where the rest of everything looks so normal.

  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
    12 days ago

    For a new rose growing new adult canes, I have hope it is normal.

  • rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)
    12 days ago

    flowers:

    Hopefully ( if you followed through with you plan this morning) you communicated with Dr. Rahman

    https://extension.wvu.edu/lawn-gardening-pests/plant-disease/plant-diagnostic-clinic

    about submitting a sample of your unfortunate ( unfortunate if it was removed) rose for routine ( RT-PCR) diagnostics for rose rosette emaravirus.

    Please let us know the results.


  • flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
    12 days ago
    last modified: 12 days ago

    Occhi di Fata got an unexpected reprieve. It is raining buckets, so will have to wait.

    Patty, I have complete confidence in you and the other commenters here. I'll stick with you all on this forum. I'll go with whatever we come up with here. I'm not holding anyone responsible or expect perfection.

    There was a break in the cloud bursts, so I ran out and got some pics from the other side of the bush. This storm has made a mess of my garden beds. They're normally pretty clean and tidy. Really.

    The green cane and the cane in question and the base of the plant is a 3-way junction. The base can't be seen from this angle. But, I think the bad cane is the largest of the three. It appears to increase in size farther up, but that's just distortion because I was so close to it with the camera.


    Mid section of the cane and the leaves growing from it.






    The leaves at the top are more slender than the leaves farther down and on the good canes. They're losing some of the red and showing a little green.


    Those blooms are not on the bad cane. It's definitely lost some of the hairy spines.


    It's improving, but still not normal. I can't do anything until tomorrow, when I hope it will stop raining.

  • flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
    12 days ago

    I know, poor quality photos. I need a new phone.

  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
    11 days ago

    Flowers, I had a Munstead Wood do this when it was fairly young and I worried. It turned out fine. Did you get the plant from Burling? Could you ask if this is what this rose does? You could email photos.

  • flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
    11 days ago

    Sheila, I got it from Roses Unlimited. I emailed Pat this afternoon and waiting to hear back.

    I'm sincerely glad your Munstead Wood didn't have RRD. MW canes have so many prickles, I probably wouldn't even have noticed an infected cane.

  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
    11 days ago

    Flowers, it had a bizarro huge cane with huge rubbery prickles. It really did look abnormal for a while, but stretched out fine and all ended well. Your cane looks a lot better than my MW did.

  • flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
    11 days ago
    last modified: 11 days ago

    That is so encouraging, Sheila. You always see the bright side. Do you think Munstead was growing too fast to keep up with itself, like kids sometimes do when they're all arms and legs, then grow into themselves?

    I am past worrying about that particular rose, but rather, the entire rose garden and others in the area. One minute I'm panicking and the next I'm telling myself, it's just a rose. Then I read how serious this disease is and how time is of the essence and cases should be reported. Rosarium's owner wanted her staff to tour my garden this year, but I don't think she will want to be anywhere near it if this is RRD.

  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
    11 days ago

    Flowers, I thought I had not seen a grafted MW just starting out so I really did not know what strong new growth typically looked like. It was bold and different but not distorted and twisty like RRD. I was confused by the rubbery prickles but then I realized I wasn't feeling all new growth prickles and when new they all feel rubbery. In summary, I was paranoid after seeing all the RRD photos.

  • flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
    10 days ago

    'Paranoid' is what this disease does to us! I'm seeing all my roses through the lens of RRD.

    It has stopped storming, hallelujah!, so I could get out there with the shovel, but I'm waiting to hear from RU about Occhi's new growth characteristics. The sky is still dark. I hope I don't lose this window of opportunity before more storms.

    About half of the red leaves have turned green and the new buds at the top of that cane look normal, but I don't know what RRD buds look like, so that may not mean anything.

  • flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
    10 days ago

    Rifis, I just saw your comment with the link this morning. They suggested I begin with my local extension office, which is what I will do before going further.

  • rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)
    10 days ago

    If (IF) they say +rrd after their visual inspection, please have them submit a specimen to the core lab for confirmation/refutation. And report findings here.

  • flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
    3 days ago

    Pat, at RU, got back to me yesterday. I know she was busy with the recent sale. She said she doesn't remember what Occhi di Fata's growth looks like. In the meantime, I injured a knee and haven't been in the garden for a few days, but the last time I looked, the cane was green and all the leaves were green and were the same shape as the normal leaves. The buds at the end of that cane were ready to bloom. If it is RRD, will the new blooms look any different than those on a healthy cane? If I ask my husband to dig it up, he will spread more mites than if it is left in the ground until I can do it.

  • rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)
    3 days ago

    Yes, he will, assuming his body surface area is greater than yours. I base this on aerodynamic modeling performed by me. Thank you YouTube video.


    I will not comment on the interesting fact that you are considering, much less planning, to “dig it up”. In light of what you saw on your last look.

  • flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
    3 days ago

    Rifis, I am considering everything, especially since I haven't been in the garden for a few days.

  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
    3 days ago

    Don't dig it up Flowers.

  • flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
    3 days ago

    Sheila, I was hoping someone would say that. The thing is, I respect everyone here and am torn. I hope I can get out there this afternoon.

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