I would switch the ovens and cabinets and put the ovens next to the fridge. Mine are that way and I see no issue with it. As for the sink base, your island will cover up the cabinets behiind it so I wouldn't worry so much with symmetry and get what is most functional for you. More drawers seem so much better than wasting all of that space. That's a lot of 12" pullouts and cabinets instead of drawers. In my previous kitchen I had drawers on all of my bottom cabinets except one and they are sorely missed in this kitchen. I'd rethink this back wall layout forgetting about symmetry.

THanks for that feedback. My only concern placing the oven/fridge adjacent to each other is that the refrigerator will not be paneled and I didn't think I would like the big block of metal all together.

I think I agree on symmetry. That I have 2 42" cabinets up against that wall is such a huge waste it seems. My KID doesn't seem to think there's any way around the 42" sink base. I will say I do like the 12" pullouts - one will hold cooking utensils, one will hold spices/oils and one by the prep sink will hold knives and cutting boards. But maybe it's overkill on pullouts. I do like the pullouts on either side of the range. I just added that other 12" one for the cutting boards.

I understand your hesitation on the fridge oven thing. Have you looked at pictures of kitchens with that set up? For reference here is my kitchen, excuse the crazy paint we were in the midst of picking colors here.

You just have to decide what you like.

I would for sure change that cabinet on the other side of the cooktop to drawers, maybe make that B21 a B24 or drawers there too and then the 30 and a 36 drawer base. That would give you lots of usable space and you can still have your pullouts. the sides don't have to match. Or you could put your ovens on the end of the cooktop wall. Just some beginning thoughts. Is your designer an actual kitchen designer or the cabinet designer? No judgement in that question, sometimes it matters sometimes it doesn't.

I guess Houzz is still having problems loading pictures. Hopefully it will show up. If not I will try again later. Sorry

Move the refrigerator closer to the ovens with a narrower full depth tall cabinet between. This will give you more counter in the corner...you will want that for function as well as appearance. 42" sink bases lineup under the windows nicely, but will be horrible for function. A good kitchen designer should be able to give you a better alternative.

Is there really going to be empty space above the pantry cabinet next to the frig? If you're going to have short cabinets to fill up the space to the ceiling consider having glass doors on them with lighted interiors. That is a popular look. You're going to have trouble reaching them to store anything, so you put decorative objects in them. They could be your infrequently used serving bowls (used when you have a party). I second the comment about using drawers instead of doors with pullouts. It's one action to open a drawer, two to open a cabinet and then pull out the shelf. I only see pull-outs used in pantry cabinets anymore.

A few of my unorganized thoughts (I'm not a pro, just have been working on my own kitchen reno for about a year).

I agree with KD that it would be too chopped up to have the cab between fridge/oven shallower. It looks fine to me as is. I think I'd like having all the food in one place for grabbing items to start a meal (so I think I'd prefer the cab there and not the ovens).

I would not add another 42" cabinet for the sake of symmetry. No way. I would not plan any regular non-drawer cabinets unless there's a specific need for it. One thing our prep-sink base has been useful for is large cutting boards! If you don't mind keeping them under the sink, that is. We have the plumbing on one side, and the cabinet bottom is lined with an absorbant felt-like pad, and it doesn't seem yucky at all under there, so I've been very happy with this. I have smaller cuttting boards in one of our taller drawers.

There isn't much space between your prep sink and rangetop. I have about 42" between mine, and it seems about right. Sometimes I would like just a bit more to be able to spread out my prep work, but on the other hand I also sometimes feel like it's a bit far for things like bringing a pot of pasta to the sink to drain. So it's a balance, just something to keep in mind. Another thing to consider is a workstation sink where you can leave a cutting board over the right half of the sink, effectively adding counter space there. Or even just a cutting board that sits over a regular sink. And a larger sink would be easier to work with things like... draining pasta :)

I think I'm seeing two different corner plans? I agree corners suck :) I'm planning a Super Susan cabinet after reading about them here.

Do you have plans for trash/recycling?

I would make sure that ailse between cleanup and rangetop is plenty wide. So that somebody could be cooking and putting away dishes at the same time without bothering each other. Or... maybe could change it all up and put prep sink in island near fridge, with the island space to prep at. And move cleanup sink to window on the right side with diswasher to the right of that. And trash could be in the island, near both prep and cleanup sink.

Just trying to post the picture I was trying to show yesterday of my kitchen with fridge and ovens next to each other. You have to decide what works for you.

ideas for others · More Info

Thanks all for your thoughtful comments - I'm going to address some comments:

(1) I agree with KD that it would be too chopped up to have the cab between fridge/oven shallower. It looks fine to me as is. I think I'd like having all the food in one place for grabbing items to start a meal (so I think I'd prefer the cab there and not the ovens).The counter depth cabinets between the oven and fridge are not a panty and not for food storage. I have a humongous pantry close by. I would be used for small appliances maybe? I really have no idea. But not food. The alternative is to change to upper cabinets with counter between the fride/oven and NOT to make a shallower full size cabinet.

(2) Is your designer an actual kitchen designer or the cabinet designer?- NO. I didn't think it was a problem until now where she just seems to want to fill the space with cabinets and be done without actually helping me figure out how it is functional. :::eye roll:::

(3) There isn't much space between your prep sink and rangetop. Yes - agree. However, I've got plenty of space in other places and we thought it'd be nice to have a sink under a window. I very much want my main (36") sink to be on the island. So not sure where else to put the prep sink. A second sink on the island seems a bit too much? I will likely do prep in my 36" sink anyhow. This is a second sink so my husband can do his think at the same time as me, if necessary.

(4) Do you have plans for trash/recycling? In island next to 36" sink (across from prep sink)

(5)I only see pull-outs used in pantry cabinets anymore. Yes, agree. I don't like the idea of pullouts in a 42" cabinet. I don't,, however mind the 12" pullouts for my cooking utensils and cutting boards. I actually like that. But if it messes up my ability to have more drawers, then I may just have to be content storing my cooking utensils, etc in drawers.

Your layout would be so much better if you take some of the advice already posted. Put the prep sink on the island and the clean-up sink under the window on the right, with the DW to the right of the sink. This is not to scale but illustrates the different work zones:

ETA, I don't know if it's Houzz, or my computer, but I keep losing posts. I will add info and pics as edits. In your plan, you need more prep space between the prep sink and cooktop--centering the sink on the window ruins that work space. In the plan I drew, helpers can unload the DW or gather dishes to set the table, without entering the prep/cooking spaces, and you can prep on the island with a view to the room. Of, course, you still have the option of rinsing items at the prep sink, then moving to the counter with the window.

Good kitchen-planning info in the links below:

NKBA guidelines

New to Kitchens? Read me first.

Discussions--Extra-deep counters

Discussions--all drawer bases

Do the windows have to be where they are drawn now? I have a similar kitchen - I deleted the windows on that wall. I have dw, large single bowl sink (where I put the rinse dishes and clean up cooking/prep things), counter space (with drawers below!) range, more counter space (also drawers below). My prep sink is on the island, which is 10’ long and scads of prep space and more drawers. I don’t stand at the kitchen sink washing dishes like my mother did because we didn’t have a dishwasher - oh, wait…we actually had 5 dishwashers (me and my siblings). I like my prep area on the island - I can visit with my guests/family while preparing a meal. Another note - I like where your ovens are now because you can open the doors without being hemmed in by the island. Ovens typically are not accessed frequently - you put something in and that’s it for awhile.

An overhead/flat/2D layout with measurements would be more useful for giving advice.

Consider making the space b/w the ovens and refrigerator a "Snack and Coffee/Tea Center". Replace the existing tall cabinets with upper & base cabinets with counterspace between them. On the counter could be a coffee maker, electric teapot, or even a toaster oven (if you use one).

You say you have plenty of prep space elsewhere...but is that counterspace useful space or is it just long spans of counterspace without thought to how it will actually function?

To be useful as prep counterspace, you should have a bare minimum of 36" directly adjacent to a water source and either next to or across the aisle from the range or cooktop. 42" to 48" of counterspace is much, much better!

Spans of counterspace randomly located throughout the Kitchen often turn into junk collectors, and expensive junk collectors both in cost and loss of function elsewhere.

Since this is an addition, design the Kitchen before you place windows and doors (especially busy doors).

Create a Prep Zone with at least 42" of counterspace next to a sink, preferably the prep sink so someone trying to prepare a meal is not competing with others cleaning up, loading the DW, unloading the DW, accessing the DW (take a glass out/put one in), or someone else trying to also prepare something. Ideally, the Prep & Cooking Zones should be separated from the Cleanup Zone. From the "New to Kitchens? Read Me First!" thread:

• Work Zones, What Are They?: https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5500762/faq-kitchen-work-zones-what-are-they

Regarding the island size -- are you and your family very tall or at least have very long arms? Most people cannot comfortably reach more than about 30" with a dishrag for wiping down a counter. That means your island should not be more than around 60" (5') deep to allow you to reach the center. It will require you to walk around the entire island to reach all of it when wiping it down, but at least you will be able to wipe it all down.

Yours is 72" (at least) deep. [If it is only counting cabinets, then it's probably deeper once you add the counter.] This means you may have difficulty reaching the center to clean the counter without crawling onto the counter, chair, step stool, etc.

If you're trying for a row of cabinets under the counter facing the seating, then consider:

1.5" overhang in the front of the island

+ 24" deep cabinets

+ 18"D cabinets

+ 1" for the doors on the back cabinets

+ 15" for the seating overhang (minimum recommended for counter-height seating for short-to-average height/leg length people)

=============

59.5"

I would definitely turn this over to a qualified kitchen designer before you go any further. Speaking from experience it's easy to get stuck on a plan that will lead to regrets and costly re-dos.

Does your kitchen designer get paid by you for her services or does she make her money by selling cabinets? I'm guessing the latter. Fourteen inch high 2' deep cabinets just below ceiling height will be functionally useless. I think Buehl offers some very good advice.

Are you and your spouse serious cooks or do you mostly want a kitchen to impress other people or increase your resale value? Did your designer discuss these issues with you or did they just start filling the available space with cabinets? If the latter, it's time to dump your designer.

You say you have a huge pantry already. Do you really need the upper cabinets on the wall with the windows? I personally dislike corner cabinets since I can't reach most of the things in them. I have floating shelves in my corner instead and it makes the kitchen airy. I also have left doors off of two bottom cabinets and use those open shelves for small appliances.

I am definitely not a kitchen designer, but it seems to me the person who handled your cabinet layout missed asking the very important question of how you see yourself using your kitchen. A good designer would actually work with you to figure out comfortable zones, or even create a plan for what you want to put into each drawer and cabinet, complete with measurements of oversized items. It would be so annoying to find you've gone to all the trouble and still have nowhere to put your large platters or extra-wide salad bowl! It's also necessary to take your family into consideration. For example, if you have kids, a snacky partner, or you entertain frequently, you may want to consider putting the refrigerator where your ovens are currently shown and turn the adjacent cabinet into a snacks and beverage space so that there's easy access to drinks and snacks without people getting into the middle of your cooking zone. Imagine a holiday meal being cooked with a house full of people, a turkey to baste, multiple items in the lower oven, and you can see that it might be preferable to have the ovens within your cooking zone and the refrigerator and snacks in a location that doesn't cause traffic jams. It's also really important to have countertop next to the oven to use for staging and landing. It may seem simple enough to grab something out of the oven and turn around to put it on the island, but imagine a heavy turkey or a roasting tray with more drippings than expected (not to mention the inevitable potholder failure) and I expect you can see why. I personally feel that the whole "kitchen triangle" concept is a lot less useful than zoning the spaces into cooking, prep, food storage, and cleaning. Last note about the ovens... unless you're quite small, they seem very low. You should really be able to use the top oven without needing to bend over. I'm 5'5" and the top control panel for my oven is at eye level (top of the oven cabinet is 64" and the top of the oven door is at 59"). I splurged a bit and went for an oven with french doors (GE Cafe series) since we've designed for aging in place and wanted to make the actual cooking part of the oven as accessible as possible. I love it and everyone who uses it wants one.

One last note - it looks like you're planning for an extra-large gas rangetop. If you haven't already, you should ask a knowledgeable appliance person about exhaust hood sizing and CFM. Since gas cooking is a combustion taking place inside your home, building codes have a bunch of requirements for both minimum levels of exhaust and a make-up air system that draws in fresh air to replace the air that's being sucked out. It's the sort of thing nobody thinks to mention until you suddenly find that you need to add a bunch of ducting and have nowhere for it to run. Also, some communities and states are trying hard to encourage people to move away from natural gas and propane and towards electric or induction systems, and it's worth finding out what the trend is in your area.

I think the design looks right to me. It is not too heavy and offers continuity. Placing 2 appliances together can be done if you lack space, which is not your situation. The oven generates heat against a refrigerator that is trying to stay cold, not ideal for energy consumption. The deeper cabinet affords you the possibility of pull outs for your smaller appliances, like a stand mixer, food processor or even an espresso machine/ coffee station, without having to lift them to a counter(just include plug outlets in the cabinet). I also use my deeper cabinets for storing large serving platters and other necessities for entertaining. The layout gives you island space in proximity to the refrigerator and oven for resting items. Don’t overthink it. It is a sensible attractive design.

I also agree with oven next to the frig , that that’s what I have.

My recently gutted and remodeled kitchen has only 4 upper cabinets, where I keep glassware (behind glass doors), coffee mugs and paper goods. My 10 foot long/36 inch deep island contains all wide drawers. The top drawers are for utensils and the bottoms are very deep for dishes, serving ware, food storage containers and even a snack drawer for my husband and one for me. Also one drawer is a charging station for all our devices. I LOVE IT! My pantry cabinets have pull out shelves effectively making it like drawers too. Best decision!

I agree with Buehl, make the space between the ovens and refrigerator a coffee/tea station as it gets an appliance out of the main kitchen area. Plus, having a small counter next to the oven gives you a place to set items while waiting for the oven to preheat or items to cool after taking them out of the oven. Instead of having storage under the counter I put refrigerator drawers for kids snacks and drinks making the entire small area very useful.

A few things I think about looking at your design are;

Where is your connection to an outdoor space? If you enjoy grilling, how far do you have to transport food to bring it there?

Will you have any space for an informal eat in dining area? A table and chairs where you can face each other rather than lining up in a row like at a diner?

How would you clean up as you are cooking when you are butt to butt with someone behind you at the stove?

How can you access your ovens if someone is at the refrigerator? Placing your fridge at the end would give you more room to get in and out of it without having to back up into the island behind you or blocking the walkway.

The island you are considering is bigger than a queen size mattress which visually could look heavy and weigh your entire space down. Buehl above is right it would be very difficult to clean. Wiping down the Island is something I do every day and if I had to climb on a stool in order to do that it would be huge you know what! I have a 6 foot island and I routinely only use about 3 feet of it, so sorry just think that it's more than what you would ever need.

A prep sink traditionally goes in the island not on a perimeter cabinet so not sure why with 22 feet of wall space it's in the island?

Don't just fill the space you have, think about the things that will add value and function better than what you have in this design and perhaps get a second opinion of your layout.

Hi I am not a designer or anything like that; I am just a person who once was able to gut a kitchen and remodel - leaving expensive remodeling costs - like moving the kitchen sink or creating an island with prep sink - adding windows, - all things that would be very expensive to relocate in a concrete slab foundation and concrete block home.

I did hire a kitchen designer and she was expert and fabulous. I suggest you do too - a competent designer will be worth whatever it takes and will save you heartache and expenses too. This person will be able to assess your situation, know what your goals are, your budget, your taste, how you will use the kitchen and steer you in matters that you are not familiar with. Also, a great designer will be patient with you and you won't feel like you are being blown off, rushed, or un-informed. The lady I had was busy and sought after yet I know I was treated equally.

This is my best recommendation to you.

You can utilize corner cabinets with a bifold type door and the cabinet functions really well - it is just nobody uses them or maybe unaware? Or not offered in that line of cabinetry?

Would you consider a "bump out" for your sink issue - to create depth. Was not sure i understood the issue.

Can you add more natural light with more windows if you don't need all the uppers?

I would get good advice regarding putting a refrigerator and an oven tower (it looks like two?) next to each other. Because I think maybe, energy wise, this is not good for either appliance. The ovens heat and take some time to cool to room temp and the refrigerator is continually working to keep foods cold and frozen foods frozen. Also, I don't know but many designs do not allow the space behind the refrigerator and next to the wall enough "breathing room" and makes the refrigerator work harder. I framed out a walled area specifically for my refrigerator (it was not counter depth) and it was it's own dedicated space with breathing room and I had countertop space really handy across from the refrigerator so a place to put bags of groceries whilst loading the fridge with said groceries - it was quite nice.

The mess up here was that the framed out area for fridge - well, the base molding was NOT calculated in the dimensions - SO - the fridge technically did not roll in like it should have - the molding decreasing the width at bottom. So, the drywall was cut out, the 2x4s were shaved down with a sawz all (recip saw) on one wall (half of the studs) enough that the fridge would go in now with base molding. Had to re drywall that area too. It was stupid and good money spent that could have been used elsewhere. Note: my designer was NOT involved in the refrigerator relocation because I did some things myself or with a handyman. Yes, I could have just omitted the baseboard in that area it would have been easier and saved time and money. But it just seemed so cheesy to do so, when moldings were a large part of the whole design. The kitchen was wallpapered in the end, and the modified wall was not really apparent, but it still bothered me. This is what being painfully inexperienced is all about. Next time, I would turn over everything to my "kitchen" lady!

Plan every detail and in the end, when it does end :) - you will be very satisfied and it will have been worth it!