nice pic.. who ever took it was a genius with his phone ....

the things about 40 feet wide.. how much wider you looking for?? .. fatter but smaller ????

otherwise i dont understand your premise.. with you idea ...

i dont have any ideas for next season ....those usually occur a little deeper into winter....

ken

So far, until I see signs of increased summertime precipitation, I won't be starting much for new woody plant. Been a few years since we've had regular patterns with soaking rains so it's getting dry pretty far down in the subsoil.

Good snow cover at the present time, if it doesn't all run off down the storm drains.

Also our new neighbors, next to us in the new apartments, began feeding deer so it's getting a little ridiculous with them drawing more and more deer into a residential neighborhood.

Like ken says, it's still early and plans might change by March/April.

The subtitle of this thread is 'Plans that came too late for the previous gardening season'

My OP is pretty well the only plan left for my front and backyard, then I will lay back. Only replacing one or more of my zone pushers, perhaps, and weeding of course ...

Lots of red and variegated japanese maples all around our backyard and patio. Can't stop, won't stop.

How do frost dates apply to conifer planting? I am eager to start as early as possible! Is the last spring frost date as determined by the almanac below, a reliable guide for planting?

https://www.almanac.com/gardening/frostdates

My persondal preference for conifers is fall planting. I've planted at other times, but in z4 upper midwest, the period from late September to mid October has shown the best results. I'm curious to know what others have to say about this.

Ontario, I'm skeptical of your planting approach to grow a "much fatter specimen." I'm assuming you'll be planting a single species/cultivar, and I'd be concerned that those grown in the middle will be shaded out. I could be way off on this, and it might turn out amazing, but I'd be concerned the interior section would be sparse and ratty looking.

@maackia It will be a circular planting, there is no middle. IMHO what counts is what is visible from the outside, like in the OP pic. The site itself is unfortunately far from ideal, i.e. a fence corner. I will plant further out, but the corner side of the planting may grow slower. I will prune to try and 'level the playing field'. Moreover, the corner side is somewhat hidden anyway. Everything considered, I will just plant the arborvitae species. Most optimistic result in 10 years looks like a 30 year old DeGroot's column that has grown fat and tall :-)

Yeah, I am also curious about conifer planting dates. Perhaps the almanac plus a 1 or 2 week weather forecast help.

Planting dates for conifers vary around here. I'm right on the line z3b/4a.

The MN DNR says April and May for spring planting and October for Fall.

https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/treecare/index.html

Then there's all the variables. ;-)

IME: As soon as the frost is out has been a good planting time for me. While the tree is still dormant, and buds haven't swelled. That's generally last part of March to end of April here. I've transplanted once the buds start to swell and never killed any trees but I think it's more of a shock to be cutting roots when the tree is beginning to grow.

Fall planting here has gone just as well and includes the added benefit of summer growth being over plus having the roots extend for a month or two, during cooler weather, before the ground is too cold.

I've woods dug spruce end of July, once winter buds have formed and have moved spruce across the yard in August. Just have to make sure they stay watered if heat is a factor. A shade cloth helps too if sun is intense, again, variables. We can have hot dry Augusts and/or cool, cloudy, wet Augusts. But Z3/4 tend to have cool nights all summer and that reduces stress before the heat of day returns. Another plus for spring planting.

eta: zone hardy plants should be able to take a late frost or two. So Planting date is not the same as last frost date.

@BillMN-z-2-3-4 The almanac that I linked to gives a 30% probability of frost after the 'last spring frost date' (and the equivalent in fall) FWIW, all other planting calendars that I found use 50%. The almanac is the tightest, but obviously no planting calendar/almanac can give any 'no frost' guarantees (0%)

So, is that your goal? Planting when there will be no frost or freeze afterwards?

That could be the first week of June in my area. That's when we plant tomatoes. :-)

LOL, no, I don't have a 'grow your own food' garden.

What I meant was that MAYBE the frost that can happen after the 'last spring frost date' with 30% probability, may be a frost(s) that zone hardy conifers can survive after a transplant.

According to the almanac my 'last spring frost date' in USDA zone 4b is mid May. If the previous paragraph holds true, then that's my earliest planting date for zone hardy conifers (weather and soil temperature permitting at that time, of course)

What I am wondering is that you get good results planting zone hardy conifers in April in USDA zone 3b/4a. It would be about a month early according to the almanac. But then, almanacs are for tomato farmers :-)

' What I am wondering is that you get good results planting zone hardy conifers in April in USDA zone 3b/4a '

Yep, works for me. 8^)

I know this is a bit late in the season, and I'll try to keep it under a thousand words, but I'll be testing the Fall conifer planting method on an unplanned purchase this season. Was at Lowes yesterday and like anyone in their right mind I was checking out the plant tables and noticed rows of several different kinds of potted Junipers.

First thing that came to mind was, where am I going to plant another juniper? :-)

There were golden hue varieties and a few uprights. But most were labeled minimum Zone 4.

The blue rug 'wiltonii' I saw was one I'd always toyed with the idea of buying, just something I've always liked about it when seeing it at other locations. And I noticed Zone 3 on the label.

I actually left the store and checked out a few other BBS in the area. Not much at those except HD had the fertilizer I wanted so got that into the car but that blue rug just kept bugging me.

I had placed a good-sized rock, when it came available to me, out in front of the house, a couple of years ago and planned on putting a summer flowering plant in front of it but after not finding the 'perfect plant' and not wanting to plant something too tall that would cover it up, I put it on the back burner, and of course, nothing ever got done about it.

Then, the inspiration came to me, the only possibility really, was it's time to make a new bed in front of that rock. That and I noticed the 50% off end of season sign, so it only cost me $5.49 otd. :-))

For my area, this is a bit late to be planting things. Any time after mid-October, freezing nights could begin on a regular basis, but looking at the ten-day forecast, there's high 70's to near 80 this week and most all of next week with some cooling off by end of the ten day.

So, if that's correct, the plant will have at least the next ten days to get over the transplant shock and begin elongating roots. We could have an extra-long Fall like last year too.

In the end it's all just a gamble and as good or better than my other options which are few. ;-)

Even DW likes the idea and is on board to getting some summer blooming flowers for around the outside edge for next season. We can always enlarge/reshape the bed in the future.

I plan to add mulch over the plant too before winter hits in case we don't receive any snow.

2-1/2 qt. pot (there were larger ones for more money but small is good when root problems are likely to need dealing with).

JFWIW: It was a 'Nightmare scenario' as is getting to be the norm now days.

I plunged the whole thing into a pail of water to loosen up the root ball, then using a large scissors and a knife, got the roots spread out enough for a decent planting, reducing the chances for circling roots. On this type of plant (creeping), that may not be as much of an issue as it is with others.

See, only 544 words!

:-)

BillMN, great post! It illustrates what I love about gardeners - the never ending optomism! That’s a great boulder & the color of the blue juniper will really be a nice counterpoint to it. On my walking route I’ve seen the Wiltonii planted in a boulevard between the sidewalk & street - it’s growing over medium sized rocky / gravel fill with a couple of larger rocks like yours randomly set in the boulevard. It’s a very attractive display and looks great all year. I’m in a much warmer more temperate zone than you but junipers seem extremely hardy. You’ll have to come back next spring with a status picture to let us know how your late planting fared over your winter.

Thanks KW, it should be fine, but I'll update next spring for sure.

What got me liking blue rug was when it was planted in a bed at a nursery that was a few feet higher than the bed below it, with a wall going almost straight down to the lower bed.

This variety of juniper will 'creep' off the top of the wall and down like a curtain, over time.

My place would take a lot of work & $$ to get that same effect but it is a nice color the way it is.

Is the boulder sculpted? I can see a polar bear with a head, a body and stylized limbs, but I can see disco balls too, LOL. Anyway, a great opportunity to grow green seals in the garden bed!

Sculpted by nature.

It came from a local gravel pit when gravel was being hauled to build up the area for the adjacent new apartment complex. One of the workers brought it over for me with a rubber tracked bobcat. It was too flat to be showy, so I tipped it up on end into a hole and buried that end for stability (Didn't want to lose any Grandchildren). ;-)

That's a calcite deposit on the front.

Pretty neat story behind the boulder. How tall is it from ground level up? It’s a nice shape & much more showy / colorful than the typical landscape boulders I see around here.

BTW, since I'm the OP, I'm obliged to say that I did not go through with the ring planting because it would take too much space in my backyard. I have only space for 1 more dwarf conifer in my front yard. That space will be filled next spring, I will be shopping for a light green with gold fringes bun shape grafted on a very short (4" to 8") standard, wish me luck finding something like that in my neck of the woods :-)

It's 32" above the ground. I buried it near a foot into the ground.

I thought about adding smaller boulders on either side and that still could happen, someday.

I like rock but you almost need heavy equipment to do that kind of work. I used my van, 2x4's and a large rachet strap to tip it on end so it dropped into the hole.

This is what it looked like the day it arrived. 44"L and ~1200 lbs.

Also, during construction of the new apartments, I got permission to take any of the rock they cast a side. So, with the ground coated with snow, I skid several over with my kiddie sled. :-)

And then later, my son loaded a couple marbled, flat sided rock onto my trailer at his place.

They're much easier to get off the trailer than to get them on. ;-)

Gotta go!

We do wish you luck Ontario!

Be sure to update us when you find that 'perfect plant'.

Didn't mean to hijack your thread. It's just that when people ask questions, I hate to leave them hanging without reply. ;-)

Fall rains have started where I am, giving conifers the drink they need for the winter :-)

We've had near 4" of rain the last 3 weeks. Yesterday evening 30dF for couple of hours and last night 29dF for over 6 hours. Sunny and mid 50's forecast with rain Friday.

You get any frost yet Ont?

I’m probably a full zone warmer than Bill, but even a crow wouldn’t crow about that. Still, it does show how two-hundred miles makes a difference. We have not had a frost yet, and most trees are still Green. The native maples — especially Red Maple — colored early and put on a brilliant show, but I believe that was due to droughty conditions that persisted for most of summer. Maples feel it much more than oaks, or are at least quicker to show it.

No frost yet, but fall weather so far is perfect for my dwarf conifers to prepare them for winter, IMHO. I do have an expensive dwarf Pinus strobus cultivar that I planted in May, it sheds more than the usual amount for pine trees (although nearly all of it are inner needles, thank goodness) and that worries me a little, but otherwise, things are hunky dory :-) Your weather sounds like good for your garden too :-)

Edit: Fall colours have started to appear here too, although my arborvitae have not turned into their dull green yet, they are usually the first ones of the conifers that turn colour.

It's been a little weird here with most of the poplars staying green. This frost might change that.

All the oaks and lindens are just starting to turn but our maples and ash went early, and I too think it was the dryness of the weather.

High 30's for tonight and the next 10 nights forecast with mid to high 50's so not too bad yet but growing season is done for sure (except for roots).

Usually rains more here after the frost hits for some reason. ;-)

All done winterizing the yard, which gets easier every year.

Good old continental climate hasn't missed a winter yet (although some can be more brutal than others). :-)

Cold drizzly rain today with wind (mid 40's). Refreshing to know the ground isn't bone dry anymore. ;-)

Speaking of conifers winter coloring, I have a creeping juniper rooted from a cutting off an unknow variety, that remains blue all winter (possibly 'Blue Chip?). All my other junipers get that dull purply coppery haze color, once it gets cold.

The parent plant is fairly tall (2-3 ft. high) but it's growing in partial sun under a row of trees, so they look scragglier than pictures I've seen. This one is still small but grew a lot this Fall. I have pruned it some on the right side because I wanted it to grow mostly to the left.

I've heard about the waxy coating that gives the blueish coloring but still, shouldn't it turn coppery in the cold?

A conifer turning colour is to me a visible sign that the cold or warm season is starting for that particular plant. Is the colour change indicative for planting, in other words ...

... if you are a believer in fall planting, should you perhaps plant/re-plant right after the colour of that particular plant changes?

... if you are a believer in spring planting, should you perhaps plant/re-plant right before the colour of that particular plant changes?

Same idea as the 'Plant when dormant'. :-)

Yeah, same as the 'plant deciduous trees when dormant' idea except that conifers still photosynthesize in winter (do not go fully dormant) so the closest to the 'dormancy idea' is the 'colour change idea'. Not sure if the theory holds up under scrutiny, though. Anyway, up for discussion :-)

I would almost bet my next paycheck that conifers do become very close to total dormancy, once outside temperatures drop way below freezing for any length of time.

Photosynthesis requires movement of water through the plant. Not much water moves at very low temperatures.

IMO: The amount of photosynthesis at very low temperatures would be negligible although as certain climates are subject to warming spells during winter, the amount of photosynth. may increase during those times.

eta: One thing I do know is that you don't want to plant/transplant conifers during the season when they are actively growing. ;-)

Yeah, I think that colour changes are the most visible aspect of metabolism changes. The whole conifer plant wakes up (or go to sleep) but I wonder if this human perception isn't 90% due to colour (10% is maybe due to new premature growth in extreme cases)

Vice versa, is needle drop in fall indicative of metabolism drop > if you are a believer in fall planting, then perhaps you should plant/transplant a particular conifer plant right after it has dropped its needles?

My understanding is lack of chlorophyl during dormancy is the reason for the color change.

Other than that, I have no scientific training in the matter, except I have read and practiced what the people here, who study these things, have stated so it must 'rub off' to an extent. ;-)

I don't have a scientific background in this regard either, I was merely using colour changes, chlorophyl changes, changes in water movement, etc. as specifics of the general changes in metabolism.

I had a more practical aspect in mind, though. When to best plant/transplant conifers has been discussed many, many times, and it was almost always which month (either in fall or in spring) and what the weather conditions are, i.e. factors external to the plant. I was trying to discuss which factors internal to the plant indicate or contra-indicate planting/transplanting, factors like colour change and needle drop. Another practical aspect is that the indication/contra-indication for planting/transplanting has to be visible (with the naked eye) i.e. colour change and needle drop are visible, whereas changes in water movement is not :-)

Edit: I wonder how substantive the 'when to plant/transplant' optimization really is. Professional landscapers plant/transplant from ground thaw to ground freeze under all weather conditions. I myself once planted an expensive conifer that I was very, very lucky to acquire in mid-July with no ill effects. But of course, one tries one's best if circumstances allow.

I think it all has to do with the amount of root disturbance.

When a tree is dormant, it's nutrient and moisture level requirements are quite low so the tree will handle the shock better when it's in that state.

If you buy a potted plant, with new growth already in progress, with mid-summer approaching and all you have to do is place it in the ground and water it properly, you most likely won't have any problems establishing it. Maybe a B&B dug earlier in the spring and set directly in the hole would work too.

The problem comes in when you have something pot bound and do a fair amount of root pruning first. In that case, you have a thriving plant, drawing nutrients and water from fine roots that suddenly get cut off.

Same when you dig already established plants. Its running on all eight cylinders until you cut through about 60-80% of its fine roots. It might survive but recovery will be slow with possible damage to the crown.

That's where planting/transplant shock occurs.

And as an aside: Years ago, I can remember digging a tree for a friend that insisted we finished the job of replacing an unwanted tree we removed, immediately, sometime early to mid-summer.

The 6' tall white spruce we dug from the woods had 2" of new growth at all the branch tips and we dug as big of a root ball as we could manage.

We hauled it to his place and put it in the hole and watered it down good and by the next day or two, the new growth was wilting, subsequently turned brown.

There again, the tree feeding on an extended root system, suddenly getting cut off. Its only option then was to cut back on production, doing what it had to, for survival.

The older mature green needles lived, and tree did resprout new growth next season and in a few years looked good, but the setback was apparent during all that time.

I think it all has to do with the amount of root disturbance.

Agree, if you could do the planting/transplanting to include the entire root system, then there would be zero planting/transplanting shock :-)

When a tree is dormant, it's nutrient and moisture level requirements are quite low so the tree will handle the shock better when it's in that state.

I had started a parallel thread on the issue. I think an argument can be made the other way, i.e. if a plant is actively growing, it can heal the trauma of planting/transplanting quicker than when it is dormant. Not saying that I subscribe either way, I'm just tossing the issue up for discussion, here or there :-)

' if a plant is actively growing, it can heal the trauma of planting/transplanting quicker than when it is dormant. '

It's actively growing only because it has every tiny bit of the finer than hair roots supplying water and nutrients, 'Full Bore' so to speak, during a warm and sunny time of year.

That all ends the second you cut off the supply.

End result, Transplant shock now takes its toll.

End of story. haha!

:^)

Well, there will always be transplant shock, but talking about healing, cut off roots can only heal if they are growing, cut off roots cannot heal if they are not growing.

From past discussions elsewhere here on GW, it appears that roots grow in spring and fall, not in summer. Hence, plant/transplant in spring and fall, not in summer (which BTW corresponds to often repeated advice)

To continue with the discussion when exactly in spring/fall to plant/transplant, I suggested changes in needle colour and needle drop. These visible changes may well correspond to the point in time when growth above ground shifts to growth below ground and vice versa > plant/transplant when needle colour/drop indicates that growth is happening below ground.

That said, conifers are not really that sensitive as to when to plant/transplant them, in my opinion as an average gardener. I just like to discuss and understand things better, and that's not just wrt what happens in the garden :-)

And conifer roots do begin to elongate as early as August in more northern climates.

Something to do with the formed winter buds sending hormones to the roots at a certain point in their maturity. Embothrium made that statement.

I was surprised to see roots of a white spruce, that I transplanted in the spring, out past the mulch ring and into the lawn already, in August when I moved it from that spot.

Best wishes.

I was surprised to see roots of a white spruce, that I transplanted in the spring, out past the mulch ring and into the lawn already, in August when I moved it from that spot.

I would attribute that primarily to the root growth spurt in spring (not in August)

I would need scientific information before I could accept that statement. ;-)

I thought about my (not many) observations why conifers transplanted in summer (when undisturbed roots grow slowly) heal almost as fast as when they are transplanted in spring or fall (when undisturbed roots grow quickly)

I think that's simply because the plant boosts the growth of the cut off roots hence heal faster, regardless of whether the transplant happens in spring/summer/fall.

10-21-2023:

JFWIW:

The new little 'Blue rug' appears to have put on a small amount of new growth at the branch tips.

Although I've noticed my other varieties of horizontalis junipers have grown the most late this season.

Been a nice Fall for planting with regular rain and sunny conditions, highs in the high 50's to low 60's. A few light frosty AMs with one 29df morning hasn't slowed them down.

First snow fall, welcome change of scenery :-)

10-30-2023: 6:36 PM
Looking out my front door. ;-)