What is the distance from the main hall to the side wall of the formal dining room (red)?

One more question... which direction does the back of the house face? if it faces east or west might you add a kitchen window on the side wall of what is presently the formal dining to improve the natural light?

The length of that red line is about 16.5 ft total (so our pantry closet is about 4ft long with a little wall space around it, and only about 12inches deep).

Back of the house faces Southwest but we actually get a lot of light in the dining room, I don't know why!

Here's one way to start looking at the space. Basically move the kitchen into the formal dining room. Separate the kitchen from the front room with a pocket door and treat it like a flex room--sitting room, dining room, or whatever you need. I added a new window on the side wall above the clean up sink to capture pretty light from a southeast exposure...

Oh! And the current fridge area can become your bar/wine fridge area.

@sheloveslayouts is super talented and will give you lots of ideas!

We moved our kitchen several years ago (and changed around our entire 1st floor) -- we worked initially with an architect bc of wiring, HVAC, plumbing, room scale, etc.. we were also adding a powder room so there some addl complexity - then once the bones/systems were right we worked with a kitchen designer for the all the details that make the kitchen function well - just another approach

You have to know your budget and how much change your budget will buy.

The best way to get really good results is to have a really good idea of your exact needs.

I would not do a dining room table for holidays/parties, a kitchen table for when mom and dad visit and island seating for day to day. Too many seating areas and the formal area too seldom used. Do you use/love the fireplace or is it just there because it is there?

Moving windows, doors and any weight bearing walls can be expensive.

I would want to kitchen close to the garage so I am not lugging groceries across the house.

without a scaled drawing it is tough to even suggest any type of layout, but here are a couple of thoughts:

I also love this visualization that shows amount of time spent in rooms by a typical family - based on actual time studies.

I think you have many space options. You need an architect, not a kitchen designer. You can get a great start here. You didn't say where you live, and what your budget is. You need to get acquainted with what things cost. Kilroy above could be right, depending on where you live, and what your standards are for finishes. But it could also be well less than 150k if you used a lot of non-GC labor and make economy choices. Or less if you DIY. Either way the things that are expensive are, in no order: structural labor if necessary, cabinets (there are ways to economize, including avoiding expensive wood finishes), drywall refinishing and paint (you will be doing a lot of that), new windows parts and labor, moving a range plus needed ventilation, upgrading electrical, moving plumbing, replacing and/or patching and refinishing flooring, appliances (you can get a nice fridge for 2k, or 25k). And then furniture. The list goes on. But unless you have a high budget, you need to learn all of the above to try to see where you can save.

my mind instantly went in a totally different direction. its always cheaper to keep the plumbing, heating and electrical in basically the same place. seeing your photos.. I think if it were my house I would.... take the wall out between the formal livingroom and diningroom (the rooms you don't use much now) to make that your much larger main livivng/family room moving the dining room into your family room. you could remove some of the kitchen wall to open it more if you want but I wouldn't take it all out. extend the kitchen cabinetry up to where the ceiling moulding starts in the family room. from there on will be your dining room. I think a larger dining area with a table that is comfortable for your main dining needs but can expand for more seating is better than a separate diningroom. you'll probably need to shorten the window for lower cabinets. you could still have penisula seating there and a much larger island or get a much larger island with seating. I don't understand the square area between your garage and the wall your couch is on. my thought is to wall that area in with one of the windows and have access to it from your mudroom for a pantry. easy access both from the garage and the kitchen.

Wow - Thank you so much to everyone for spending their time answering my question!! I'm loving all these comments and ideas. It's been so helpful, and also eye-opening. We live in Northern VA so things are definitely more $$$.

@Jennifer Hogan can you clarify what the different shapes are in your picture? To answer your questions, we do use the fireplace. We'd like to update it and add a mantle during this reno.

@sheloveslayouts these drawings are awesome! Thank you so much for putting this together. The 3D visuals are so helpful for me, bc it's really hard for me to visualize anything. I never thought about walling off our current family room. The only comment I have for that is we do like to use the fireplace, and also that room has the entrance to our screened in porch (the window behind the kitchen table is a pass-thru window to our porch). We are out there a lot during the warm months.

@Cheryl Smith I never thought of actually flipping the rooms! That is such an interesting idea. I need to think about that a little more but it could actually make things more cost effective. The only thing I'd miss is having the fireplace there.

So last night my husband and I were talking and thinking of other options. We were trying to figure out ways to open that dining room space to become part of the kitchen, but limit the cost (as several people pointed out). What about a peninsula island between the kitchen/dining? So basically make that wall where the current stove is, a half wall, and add a couple chairs on the dining room side. We'd just have to figure out where to put the stove then. I don't love an island stove. And then build out a (not walk-in) pantry where our current fridge is. Basically open it up to a bigger pantry than what we have no, but it won't be walk-in.

Remember that if you do a cased opening (can be with a seating/bar, or not) instead of removing a wall, it is much cheaper, by thousands, because you do not have to do as much patching, just the perimeter of the opening - you don't have to patch ceiling and match/patch floor. You may still have to relocate structural and electricity in that wall, but at less cost than all of the above. You are wise to not do an island cooktop in any way, shape or form. Another thing you can think about is, "what can we do later" if money gets consumed. What can you live with. We personally are going to live with a suboptimal floor patch for a few years before a 2nd phase happens.

Personally I would do "limited open concept," meaning maybe open kitchen to one room but not a second. Re: colonial style, Raimondi above may well be correct, but I would say "depending on the local market." Not many colonials where I live in SF Bay Area, but if there were, I could confidently say that he would not be correct here, because the market tolerance for modernism and creative but tasteful remodels is high. I would predict that CA is a forerunner of a national shift in tastes as younger buyers take over. But this is just a guess. If you will stay in that house for 20+ years I wouldn't worry.

Before you start removing walls, get a structural engineer to examine your home and find out IF you can remove any walls. Your foundation supports the whole structure, and the first-level walls and beams will support the second-level walls and roof. Once you have established what CAN move, have an architect draw the plan. You will need to know where the heating ducts run and where the water lines and waste-plumbing lines run, also.

^^^ well said

Thank you! We have already determined that the wall between the kitchen/dining is NOT load bearing and can be removed, as well as the bulkhead along the back and right side of kitchen above the sink area.

The wall between the dining room /living room IS load bearing and can only be opened up so much without adding additional support beams.

I may not have communicated my suggestion very well. i didnt wall off the family room, i moved the present dining-living doorway. im suggesting you swap your kitchen and dining room; so youd have a kitchen-dining-family room “great room” situation across the back of the house.

Not at all to scale, but this is the location-the dining room corner:

Re: "Opening the dining room space to be part of the kitchen and having a peninsula between kitchen/dining"

- you have a peninsula between the kitchen and dining, as well as tons of room on that side of the room with a dining table and then all that open space into the TV room - Can you not use that space the way you would imagine using the new space you are considering?

FWIW I feel like the space between the dining table and the TV room is way underutilized - a really good finish carpenter could create some gorgeous built-ins that provide lots of storage and are easier to fit in the existing footprint than a walk in pantry (that little corner where your round table & floor lamp are could be a great spot for additional built-in storage)

@sheloveslayouts Ohhh ok - I got it now. Thank you for clarifying! I do like this actually! It's basically shifting down our current kitchen to expand our family room to be much bigger, as well as making the kitchen bigger. Where would the stove go? (I forgot to mention there's a big bay window in the back of the current dining room where the light flows in.)

How would you envision filling that great room space/former eat in kitchen area?

Your dining area would be between the kitchen and family room. i assume your dining furniture might be the focal point from your front foyer.

This perspective is from approximately where your sink presently is. Your new dining area behind you. Cooktop on the living room wall, new doorway to living room, oven stack in the corner. The patio door on the right represents your bay window—note that your prep area with sink on the island faces the bay window.

You might want to price out the difference between just having a 30 or 36 inch range with oven, versus a cooktop and separate wall ovens. The difference is in the thousands. So maybe plan for both scenarios, depending on budget. Don't be afraid of a great 30 inch range for less than 4k. 36's will start several thousand above that. Wall ovens start I think around 4k (out of my 'range', ha). So I would guess minimum 7k for cooktop and wall oven, easily reaching 10, versus, say, 3500-4000 for a range. Or, plenty of good 30 inch ranges in the 2000's.

If you want to post a detailed drawing of the current dining-kitchen-breakfast-family-mudroom with dimensions, we can better help with overall space planning ideas. From what you posyed, i dont have a clear inderstanding of how everything fits together.

I finally was able to get the measurements of our first floor, I cleaned up the drawing a bit. Please let me know what you think!

Other ideas we're having to reduce cost and open up the layout:

-Do half wall/peninsula on dining room side and put the stove with a downdraft there, barstools on one side

-Remove the wall completely but keep most of the kitchen in it's current space, turn it into a sitting/happy hour room

-Somehow fit in a small walk-in/stand-in pantry somehow?

-Will opening up that wall make the back of our house too "long"?

Thank you all for your wonderful and helpful insights.

Strong opinion warning: Do not do the cooktop on a peninsula or island near humans, ever, unless it's a giant island in a huge kitchen and you have a full coverage low-hanging hood, no more than 36 inches above the cooking surface. (BTW - all of these are even more reasons to use induction instead of gas - heat and indoor pollution - unless you have a perfect and expensive venting setup). Several reasons: 1) downdrafts are poor performers, all of them, they can't work well. Physics. 2) exposure of nearby seated or hanging out to heat and spatter of cooking - unpleasant and dangerous. Plus, the visual mess of the stove on display. 3) the previously mentioned hood problem. Who wants to have a giant hood blocking a room they just opened up? Because downdrafts are bad, unless all one does is reheat foods. Also, moving a range and adding that ventilation, even if it's downdraft, is expensive. By far best solution and cheapest is to keep cooktop where it is, or move it elsewhere on an outside wall where it's easy to go up to the roof. Otherwise, you have a ton of options. Just don't "force" an island in the middle of your kitchen and mind clearances. In the drawing you show, I would not do an island at all unless I had minimum 42 inch clearances to all obstacles. Some people bend this rule, I think that's a mistake.

@BC Jones I tend to agree with you, I'm not a huge fan of having the stove on an island/peninsula, but it was a suggestion that was given to us so wanted to get some feedback! Where would you suggest putting the stove? My thought is if we get rid of that wall, somewhere next to the sink but not sure if that would look weird, being right next to the dining room area.

In that last image - that's the current layout? I'm going to look at the top photos again. I think you don't have to take down that DR wall entirely. You can leave the cooktop where it is, enlarge the opening to get more light/openness but also have some separation - but still have range behind the remaining wall. I think people are taking down too many walls these days. It's also expensive! You already have a lot of open rooms, the kitchen, nook and great room. Adding the DR is too much. In your photos, looks like your fridge is poorly located; too far from cooktop and sink and blocked by that small island which I would hate, btw. I mean, you would save a lot of money by not relocating appliances. You can move them if you want - but you need to get the workflow correct. Do that by deciding on how much counterspace you need, get the appliances in good locations, THEN think about an island somewhere where that peninsula currently is, then you can make other decisions like pantry. A pantry cabinet(s) can work great. Look at photos of good kitchens. The cooktop is usually 30 to 60 inches away from the sink, on one side, not interrupted by any other appliances. You should not have obstacles - or too long of a walk - getting from the fridge or at least some of your pantry to that counter between the sink and range. Dishwasher must be on the opposite side of the sink, ideally right near where your plate and glass storage is. Those are the basics. Separate work zones that don't create collisions, so one person cooking does not get disturbed by someone else. BTW, plan on getting bright undercabinet lighting if you are getting new upper cabinets. If you have the budget, separately consider recessed lighting (you would need quite a few to get the job done) plus other ceiling lighting...that's another conversation, but easier than all of this. But overall, you have the room to have a great workflow setup plus that social island. That's going to be the core of your achievement, and the DR will be secondary, I think. Without reading the whole thread again I forgot what you want for the DR.

I'm 100% open to moving the fridge because I hate it's current location!

In a nutshell, this is what we want:

-Walk in/Stand-in pantry somewhere, but cannot figure out where

-Wet bar area w/wine fridge

-Big island with seating for 4-5 for "happy hour" :)

-Breakfast nook with a circular table enough for our fam of 5 (we want to keep this because when my elder parents come over it's hard for them to sit at an island. We like to eat with feet firmly planted!)

-Potentially converting the current living room to a dining room? We do feel we need a big dining table for gatherings with extended family.

-Updating the current mudroom space to be more functional

-Not sure what to do with the existing dining room (if we don't use it for kitchen space)

-Wall between K&DR is NOT load bearing, wall between DR&LR IS load bearing, but can be opened up a bit.

-Bulkheads can also be removed so cabinets can hit the ceiling.

-Recessed lighting all over the main level! It's so dark without it.

-New flooring throughout (lighter color wider plank).

I don't have the time to draw a plan like SLL, but you can also try to based on the suggestions you're received. You need to state your approximate budget and the state you live in. We've given you a bunch of ways to evaluate what costs what. From there, you should be able to prioritize. Your list says to me, "high budget." But then you start talking about costs.

I live in VA and our budget is around 100-150k. I'm trying to use the Floorplanner site to create some 2d/3d images but I've never used it, so it's taking me some time. I tried to use their conversion tool and it didn't work yet they still charged me.

@sheloveslayouts do you have any thoughts based on our current layout?

Based on this latest floor plan (adj. from neighbor) you posted, I’d consider opening up the wall to the DR a bit more, but leaving the range in its spot; now you’ve got room to push the kitchen further into the current “nook” area, if you can see yourselves using the DR for sit-down meals. (In this case remove the small bi-fold closet or pantry and move it elsewhere p.) I have always considered it nonsensical to have 2 eating spots relatively close together, esp if one of them is small, like your nook. 1 larger dining area is better than 2 small ones! You could open the wall between DR and LR room a bit more, that way you won’t feel squeezed. This option will allow for a larger kitchen and a bit more openness (without completely changing your house’s vibe), but you’ll be able to save $$ because you’re not moving everything or even moving rooms. I think others have suggested similar options. Good luck and happy planning!

coray, a little off topic, but I am baffled by how many people think this way about eating areas. I like sitting at tables. Tables are social and functional. Two tables, two different purposes, two different spaces, different capacities, different natural light, different moods. Why the heck not. I mean, if one has an 800 sq foot cottage, sure, don't have more than one table area.

Satches, VA is not that cheap of a state. Are you near DC or far? if you are near DC, using a licensed general contractor for all of the work, i.e. no special pricing, 150k may not go as far as you think. Minimize spend on big ticket items: like cabinets (try doing non-wood, save 20-40k), try keeping appliances (range, venting) in the same place, try to move/remove only one wall, don't enlarge/create new too many window openings, get a breakout cost for that walk in pantry (would you still do it if it was 20k extra? I sure would not.) Etc. New flooring throughout = probably min 30k by itself. Are you sure on that. Etc. You don't want to invest all this work in a floorplan with an item like a pantry, and then find out it costs a ton extra, then you have to redesign, etc.

BC, I actually agree with you on some points, esp eating at a table. We have always eaten at a table, and in our last house had a “nook” in the kitchen, as well as a “formal” DR. Here are my reasons for suggesting what I did: if one entertains a lot (we actually love hosting), a separate DR is nice to have…..IF it is large enough! According to Satches’ posted floor plan, hers is not that large. What’s the point of having 2 dining spaces when both can seat 6-8 people max?? If I have a separate DR, whether formal or not, I’d want to be able to seat 12 people comfortably, so it would need to be larger. We have looked at a lot of houses, many of them well over $1 mil (pre-Covid, in NC), and the majority had DR no larger than 12x12’. It also depends on the “views”, as you mentioned, and looking at the street, as our last one was, was not great. We now have only one dining space, and I really don’t miss the separate DR at all. In Satches’ case, her budget might not allow for moving so many pieces around, and northern VA is not an inexpensive area. We just remodeled our kitchen, and we spent $125 k in that space alone, so I have some idea. Just electrical work was over $11 k, and we already had undercab lighting before, albeit not LED….it gets expensive! We kept our previous fridge (not built in) and DW as they were in good condition, but replaced all 5 windows; all major appliances and sink remain in their former location, so that saved $$. We have good cabs, but by no means anything expensive or inset, as seems to be all the rage now, nor do we have SubZero or Wolf appliances. Our pantry is just off the kitchen so was not affected or included, and refinishing our existing hardwood floors was an extra $8 K on top of the $125…..I have an interior designer friend in SC who told me she often specs kitchens with CABINETRY ALONE running $200-250 k….well, not ours. If the OP wants a larger kitchen but is on a budget that does not allow for the kind of moving around some have suggested, IMHO my idea is a viable option. I did not suggest Satches completely change the way they live or give up eating at a table, just suggested that maybe one table is enough…..I’m not really sure why that is an issue. Obviously, to each his own, and if one has unlimited funds, reach for the sky!

Maybe something like this if you can you move the office to the current DR.

@sena01 I LOVE this creativity! I never thought of moving our current office, but that would give us ample mudroom/pantry space and pretty much leave our kitchen where it is. Will def talk to my husband about this design, and thank you. Nobody has mentioned that between the 4 designers we've talked to!

@coray I know it seems strange that we need 3 eating spaces: with 3 young kids we do morning rush around the island, dinners around the cozy kitchen table, and need a big dining table for extended fam which we see often (8+ seater!) I'd have to turn our LR into the DR to get a table like that though, which we are OK with. I like your ideas in order to help save, and we do keep going back to these same suggestions.

Do you know what program I can use to try to do these options in 3D? The Floorplanner site I'm trying to use I'm having a lot of trouble with. Is there something easier to use out there? I cannot visualize something unless I see it, so I'm having a hard time understanding the look and feel without the 3D images.

Inspired by sena’s idea:

One other way to look at your need-a-larger-DR situation: you can do the "fix" we are doing with our much smaller house. You can remove the wall or greatly enlarge the opening between the current LR and DR, and buy a large extension table. On those rare occasions when you need to have 10, 12 people, you can extend the table into the LR space 2 to 4 feet, maybe moving a couple of chairs. Easiest would be if you didn't clutter up the sides of the DR with sideboards, etc; that's a tradeoff - wider table vs sideboards. For a DR seldom used at full capacity, this is workable, and could save tens of thousands in construction. Enlarging a cased opening between the rooms would be by far the cheapest, only a few thousand.

Here is what I would do - create 2, 3 or 4 plans that are complete. You have all the info in this thread to do that. You don't need perfect drawings to present. Then, find some contractors, I'd do minimum of 3, through recommendations, and get them to come over, and give you a ballpark (not a full bid) for each scenario. After probably 2 meetings you are going to understand what costs what. And then you will probably wind up either digging deeper in your pockets, or scaling back your plans. Or thinking of it in a phased way...do X now, and in 5 years, do Y. Depends on your financial situation.

100-150K in NorVa is a standard ”nice” , not high end, kitchen redo, with no structural anything. You will need to increase the budget significantly if you want to move things and make structural changes.

Thank you everyone for your feedback and advice! We have looked through all the comments and talked and decided to stick with our current footprint of the kitchen (ie, not pushing kitchen into our DR). I think we can get what we want within the space we have, and re-arrange appliances. I'm foregoing my walk in pantry for more of a pantry style cabinets. My husband is still tied to doing the peninsula between kitchen/DR...I'm not convinced. If we do that, we'd probably go with an induction stovetop w/downdraft so as not to block the view with a hood. But I'm still not convinced. Maybe we should just open up the entryway a bit more as some have suggested, leave the stove where it is, and call it a day. We nixed the idea of moving the office to the current DR even though it's a GREAT idea that would have probably allowed us to get that walk in pantry. We both WFH and are able to watch the kids play outside from the front window while we work. It's a simple thing we decided we don't want to give up!

Once we try to come up with a few ideas with our current footprint, I'll probably post to a new thread looking for some more focused feedback on the smaller layout.

Thanks so much for all your help - I appreciate each and every comment!