I agree with dee. They aint getting my information without a legal action. Period. I don't understand those that give away their phone number and/or email addresses to business, and this is a far FAR worse invasion of privacy. Privacy is an American right. Not in the Constitution, but through many decades of court decisions.

Used to, when renewing my vehicle license and auto insurance, we were asked to provide an odometer reading. Now they don’t ask because they get this information from a third party. Years back I read an article about all the data being collected on your car - mph, mileage, tire & oil pressure, etc. All of that information can and is capable of being monetized and sold.

Maybe you don’t have a newer car. Your phone is also collecting location information, travel velocity, in addition to a bunch of other data.

I turn off location services as often as I can and sign into browsers only when necessary and immediately sign out. It doesn't protect 100% of my privacy but makes things a little more difficult for the trackers.

It seems to me that the issue is that people pay for these apps and services because they are advertised as helpful or convenient and the companies are collecting their payments and selling their personal information. And, per the article, are not transparent about it

Thanks, dee, for prociding the link as some comments make it appear it wasn’t read.

The issue is NOT “black boxes” that have been collecting data internally for years.

The issue is NOT apps which you download and agree to provide data to insurance in the hopes of reduced rates.

The issue is NOT anything else that you knowingly agree to.

The issue IS certain manufacturers embedding your “acceptance” of tracking and selling your driving data, deep within the fine print of user agreements for systems like GM’s OnStar. GM is tracking your driving and providing it to third parties who in turn provide it to insurance companies. So you think you’re just setting up your GPS on your new car, but what you’re actually doing is potentially tattling on yourself every time you hit the gas or brakes hard, take a turn fast, or break the speed limit. This IS news and I’d be flipping if I drove a car from one of these manufacturers.

edit - Yes our phones track us to an extent, but they don’t tie your movement to the VIN of your car which in turn tells your insurance how your insured vehicle is being driven.

I don't feel like I have a horse in this race. I'm not the type of person who peers through closed drapes looking for people spying on me. Or who has any concern about it. Those who feel otherwise are welcome, as far as I care, to get their knickers twisted over such things. .

As far as data protection is concerned, European law prescribed for member states by the EU is considerably more restrictive.than what exists here.

I think food has a point to an extent. If a particular action involving a third party requires consent, the request and the explanations should be clearly presented and explained. Not buried in pages of words no one pays attention to.

Thank you Dee. I just went and read how to provide a gift link article, I will be more prepared next time.

I am not comfortable with the car insurance apps collecting driving data so I don't use them.

I honestly haven't really looked at my insurance costs recently so I am not certain if they've gone through the roof or not. I do think some of the rate increases might be related to the cost of vehicles which has gone up so much over the last 10 years or so.

At the end of the day car insurance companies are for-profit even if we are required to have insurance to legally drive on the street. I'm not certain how much regulation there is on the industry (just never looked into it). But at the end of the day, these insurance companies are giving a rate based on the potential cost and risk associated with insuring you as a driver with this particular vehicle. Accident and ticket history, cost of vehicle, location, statistical frequency of accidents for gender/age/location etc all factor into how much the insurance company is likely to have to pay out vs how much they need to collect in order to maintain profitability in your area.

We have recently experienced dramatic increases in auto, homeowner's and medical insurance. It is just crazy, I am not sure how it can continue increasing so much every year.

I agree with most of the last paragraph by pricklypearcactus. Remember that no activity, whether a business or non-profit, that has more expenses than receipts stays around very long.

For those of you who are conspiracy theorists and think "The Man' puts his benefit before that of customers, there are two ways for you to become The Man yourself:

1) Get your insurance from a mutual insurance company. These have no shareholders and are instead owned, in a manner of speaking, by policyholders. Profits in excess of reasonable reserves are theoretically used to reduce premiums.

2) Get your insurance from a publicly traded insurance company and buy its stock. You benefit as an owner from its profits.

Lucille, thank you for starting this thread, it’s a lot to ponder. We’re currently looking for a newer vehicle, so privacy issues (and higher rates) are things we have to consider.

I hope you don’t mind me posting this link in regards to rates rising:

https://www.npr.org/2024/03/03/1233963377/auto-home-insurance-premiums-costs-natural-disasters-inflation?fbclid=IwAR2M2KIuBXUyQp3YuOI9TW46M3zlV11x2Z_njOwvLtO4zy-xsvg0RxynRU4

It just kind of scratches the surface, but I still found it somewhat informative.

MY insurance offers this as an option to obtain a discount. I decline. First, because my SO often drives my cars and does so like a maniac. Second, because they deem it "risky" driving behavior to drive between midnight and 6 am for some reason, and I am get off work and drive home at 5 am. I think that is incredibly stupid.

My cars are older models. An 03 corolla, an 09 bmw and an 06 saturn vue. My premiums go up EVERY renewal. Same with homeowners. Its a complete scam, IMO. I had to call and remind them that i have never made a claim this last renewal, since I noticed that discount no longer applied. I did not make a claim with the wreck I was in, I sued the other party and my insurance wasn't out a dime. They decided to condescendingly lecture me on how insurance works, and why my premiums steadily increase every 6 months,despite my cars getting older. My daily driver, my corolla, doesn't even have power locks or windows, let alone anything like backup cameras or gps or other fancy things. Yet, it is the most expensive car to insure. Scammers.

I hope you don’t mind me posting

You brighten and improve every thread you're on. Kind of like Tide Pods but for forums.

Lucille, what a kind thing to say! You made my day, thank you. :)

(lol at Tide Pods!) :D

Jilly shared the same thing I was thinking 🙂

I've known for awhile now, thanks to NPR, et al.. that losses from storms and other disasters are a big factor in rising insurance rates - and that's not going to get better any time soon, I'm sure. Weather related disasters are becoming more common as we struggle with climate disruption. Is there any state that hasn't had some type of catastrophe over the past decades?

Bigger, heavier, more fancy, expensive cars translate to bigger costs too, in the event of crashes.

And I'm a bit confused - are people objecting to the ins. co.s selling data, or to the co.s spying on their bad driving?

Discussing the other factors at play mentioned in Jilly's linked article might lead to this thread disappearing 😏

I do not use my car's app because the remote start is a subscription and I refuse to pay it! But my car does monitor me and tells me things like "put your hands on the wheel" when they are on the wheel to keep my eyes the road if I happen to look at a cute dog or something off to the side or even if I scratch my nose or drink from a beverage.

Not mentioned in the article but a huge problem here is the use of paper temporary tags that are untraceable. Most of them are fake so assume the driver is uninsured at the least and probably unlicensed.

@foodonastump, ”edit - Yes our phones track us to an extent, but they don’t tie your movement to the VIN of your car which in turn tells your insurance how your insured vehicle is being driven.”

Your vin number is used to identify the make, model and value of your vehicle. After that, it’s your behavior that matters. For example, if you get a traffic ticket(s) and have multiple cars insured, I doubt that your insurance would only go up on one of them. I’ve read where insurance companies also use your credit rating, zip codes, etc. to determine rates.

Your phone and app data are being aggregated with data from just about every other digital device to establish a profile for you. The aggregators in turn sell your data to others.

I haven't connected any apps other than bluetooth when I listen to music or talk handsfree. Can they still get my information? I didn't find it. Did others see it?

@jrb451 - What’s being discussed here is our vehicles’ data being collected. From that perspective my insurance doesn’t care whether I’m driving 85 or my son is. It’s my vehicle they’re insuring and my rates that will go up. Yes, likely all cars under my policy.

Simply telling them that I’m moving at a rate of 85mph by way of my phone’s data would be meaningless to them. Yes, I could be driving my car. But I could also be a passenger in someone else’s vehicle, or on a commuter rail, or flying a Piper Cub.

From the LexisNexis web site. I’m sure they have algorithms to consider the different scenarios you suggest.

LEXISNEXIS® TELEMATICS EXCHANGE

Helping you access more driving behavior data to better assess risk

Our source-agnostic telematics exchange can receive and manage data from connected vehicles, mobile apps and third-party services. The driving behavior data received is normalized and used to generate scores and attributes that are more easily ingested into insurance carrier workflows to help better assess risk.

Bottom line on costs is how much a company has to pay out. People are making claims due to slight damage which is more expensive than it once was driving up costs for all. People haven't accepted they need higher deductables to go along with the higher price of a car....

But that's my question food, unless you connect something specific? or am I wrong? how can they possibly know what you're doing drivingwise?

I mean, how can bluetooth and YouTube tell them anything?

" I haven't connected any apps other than bluetooth "

Bluetooth isn't an app. It's a means of wireless connection. Think of it as a wire connecting two things and that's all there is to it.

" Your vin number is used to identify..... "

What do the terms "VIN number" and "ATM machine" have in common? ;-)

So it can't see anything. Cool. I don't use location for anything and I don't connect other apps to my car.

rob333, do you have Google Maps or any Google app on your phone? If so, go to your Google account, look under "Data & Privacy" to see what information is being collected.

I turned all that stuff off a long time ago. I check every now and again to make sure, and it was still turned last time I looked. I just got a new phone and I still won't add a home or work location, for example.

Is now the time to mention geofencing?

“According to Chick-fil-A, the new restaurant concept begins when customers order ahead for delivery or carryout via the Chick-fil-A app or online. The restaurant will be alerted by geofencing when customers are on their way to expedite the process and ensure each meal is timed with the customer's arrival.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/chick-fil-a-to-open-first-mobile-pickup-restaurant-what-to-know-about-the-new-concept/ar-BB1jPLV7

"Is now the time to mention geofencing?"

I'm not sure from your comment that you understand what this functionality is, what it does, and what user options and consequences are.

“I'm not sure from your comment that you understand what this functionality is, what it does, and what user options and consequences are.”

You are correct, I am not exactly sure of what it is. The way it was described to me is that if I choose to order a meal, using the web or an app, when I get a certain distance from the pick up location the restaurant will know and the food will be ready when I arrive to pick it up. Basically they can track me when I am within their ’fenced’ area.

Yes, I know that using the app or not is my decision. My option.

I choose not to support this chain of restaurants but if I was worried about being tracked I would want to be aware of the numerous ways tracking happens.

Here's an example of that functionality I take advantage of:

I often order online from Whole Foods. When I'm getting packaged things for which I don't feel a need to pick out (ie, no loose produce or meat that isn't prepackaged), it's very handy and a time saver.

IF I CHOOSE TO, I can use the app to facilitate the convenience of the pickup. Or not. I always choose to. I turn on the location function on my phone (which I keep off unless I'm using an app that requires it, it's a battery hog.). I open the app and click on "I'm on my way". As I get off the freeway about 1/2 a mile from the store, my phone dings with a notification that says "We see you're getting close, an associate will meet you at the pickup area". When I arrive, a WF worker is usually waiting there with my purchase order to load into my car. No waiting more than a minute, if that.

If I don't wish to use the location feature, I can keep it off and notify them when I arrive.

No one is tracking me or cares about anything other than my proximity to know an ETA. It's for my convenience, not theirs. There's no "fence". Neither Jeff Bezos nor anyone else is sitting in a dark computer room following the travels of WF customers.

Not that it matters, but I also do not patronize Chik Fil A, for two reasons. I tried their food a few times and found it quite mediocre. Their workers are creepy, often seeming like enlightened robots. That's enough of a turn off for me, but the company's politics and practices make it a place I wouldn't spend a penny.

CFA is pretty decent for fast food IMO. Funny, when the local store opened it was hard not to laugh at the over-the-top cheerfulness and friendliness. But those must have been workers brought in for the opening, after that the locals took over. We were in line once and my son recognized the order taker. "There's no freakin' way she'll be friendly." She wasn't! It's settled into simply a pleasant place to go to, but not over the top.

I never, ever, order food ahead. I hate cold food. Even real restaurants or pizza places, I won’t call ahead. I’d rather go there and wait. Can’t stand cold food. Won’t do door dash or uber eats for the same reason.

No one is tracking me or cares about anything other than my proximity to know an ETA.

That's not true. My husband runs a very lucrative business showing clients how they can use location tracking to increase profits, even if the potential customer only has location services on for just a few moments. You may not realize how the company is using your location but trust me, other people care besides the guy delivering the groceries.

This is not my husband's company but this company offers very similar services.

https://vicimediainc.com/

You can also look up A zon premium targeting, if you'd like to know why people at A care about when and where you shop.

Ge·o·fenc·ing/ˈjēōˌfensiNG/

noun

1.the use of GPS or RFID technology to create a virtual geographic boundary, enabling software to trigger a response when a mobile device enters or leaves a particular area:"geofencing turns the lights off when you leave and on when you get home"

Happens with the Walmart app on my phone. I check in before I leave, and when I pull in to the pickup area, it notifies me 'You've parked! What is your space number?'

" This is not my husband's company but this company offers very similar services "

If this company is similar to where your husband works, then you should ask him to better explain to you what his employer does.

This service has nothing to do with tracking the location or activity of smartphones. So-called third-party cookies, geographical origins of IP addresses, and prior user behavior can help ad selection and individual targeting for specific users on browsers and other software, to better choose ads relevant to the particular individual. This is the business that both Yahoo and Google have been in since their founding - informed ad placement.

This is nothing new in the advertising business, it was very common back in the day when magazines were numerous and successful. How come you never encountered lingerie ads in Popular Mechanics, or lawn mower ads in Vogue? Yes, targeted ad placements. Sellers of products and services made a big effort to target ad placements in media their potential customers could likely be found. Publishers kept stats of their "typical" readers, as did/do since long ago TV stations for the cross section profiles of viewers of particular programs. To help sell advertisers on ways to reach their desired audiences. This is the business that Nielsen has been in since forever.

The only new wrinkle is that on the internet, the average user doesn't make an effort to mask identifying factors of what interests them and so a lot of information is there to collect. Anonymously. If you to a website that has a lot of ads, you may find pieces for, as an example, stores or restaurants in your area. Unless you use software to mask your location, this is visible to any website you connect to. But again, this is mostly browser fed.

" Happens with the Walmart app "

Yes. As I said, an app needs to be active AND location setting on the phone needs to be on.

The "fencing" part of your term is not what I've heard in most common use here in Silicon Valley. Especially not with RFID applications. "Proximity" is much more common and has the right implied meaning for what's done with the info.

If this company is similar to where your husband works, then you should ask him to better explain to you what his employer does.

This service has nothing to do with tracking the location or activity of smartphones

It's a division of a company he owns. I don't need him to explain it to me. And yes, they do use smartphone app information.

Have a great evening.

Anytime a vendor specific app is used, user info is supplied at the outset. So yes, as an example, Walmart knows info about carolb but Target doesn’t necessarily have access to that.

Another major reason for vehicle insurance rates rising is the very large increase in vehicles being stolen, many to be put into containers and sent to international destinations - thousands of them in our provice alone.

One man had a tracker on his second car stolen, that showed it in a rail yard in Toronto, the police were notified and found it but could not prevent its being carried to Montreal and shipped to the Middle East.

I haven't had a car for over two years, live in the country so do a good bit of hitchhiking.

More than half of the people who offer me rides are (mainly middle aged) females. Several, mainly females, have offered to drive me occasionally, as needed.

Many drivers go out of their way, or farther, to bring me with my bags of groceries home, and I often offer part of my savings from not owning a car to them to help cover the cost of their gas: quite a number refuse. I say then give it to charity (giving them a deduction at income tax time). Many tell me for me to give it to charity, and I say that I give quite a lot to church, charity (or political) now, enough to bring my income tax load quite low.

Moving to the city will almost certainly more than double my rent ... and I am hugely thankful that I can afford it, for quite a few years ... and how many can one expect to need, starting from 95?

So - thankfully, increased auto insurance isn't one of my problems.

I usually drove autos 10 years or more old - so the risk of having them stolen, possibly largely for shipment overseas, wasn't high on my list of problems, even then!

ole joyfuelled

The NYT had 2 recent articles about this I will try to gift one if them:

Automakers Are Sharing Consumers’ Driving Behavior With Insurance Companies

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/11/technology/carmakers-driver-tracking-insurance.html?unlocked_article_code=1.dE0.WbP_.FYqXfoxUcz8h&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Here is the second article:

Florida Man Sues G.M. and LexisNexis Over Sale of His Cadillac Data

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/14/technology/gm-lexis-nexis-driving-data.html?unlocked_article_code=1.dE0.Kb-i.yaRxeelr_CmJ&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

There is an interesting interview with the author, Kashmir Hill, on the Hardfork podcast.:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/hard-fork/id1528594034?i=1000649297739

Deegw posted the link near the top and I posted it again. This is important information for car owners to know. Cars with Onstar, etc. already have this ability to report your driving habits.

Insurance is regulated at the state level rather than nationally. Therefore how driving data can be used varies by state. For example, in California it is not one of the three main rating factors used in determinig rates based on a law that was passed in the 90's.

Driving data can be obtained through a dongle device connected directly to the car, a cell phone app or directly from the vehicle through manufacturer interface such as OnStar. You should know that not giving OnStar permission to share your data doesn't mean it isn't collected and stored. Consumers do have to opt in to provide the data. Insurance companies will either use the generic scoring offered or create their own models. Those models are validated and approved for use by the states insurance commissions.

When an insurer is calculating potential loss rates, they are not necessarily looking at new car values as much as the cost of repair. Although I personally had a car totalled out by insurance last year, typically a car is repaired and not replaced. The cost of parts and labor is an important factor in rate increases. Along with increasing frequency and severity of losses, all costs involved in repair have gone up significantly.

Talking about rate increases, an insurance company cannot raise rates independently. They must submit information about losses and justify the rate increase they want to take. They take into consideration the loss rates and expenses against the premium collected and investment income on the premium. Then the state insurance commissioners will approve or deny the rate increase.

Also of note, rental car agencies and truck fleets also use telematics to keep track of vehicle usage and location.

Depending on state ins. commissioners/commissions, you can be well served or quite the contrary. FL's seem to always land on the side of the co.s and not consumers.

I could only wish my auto insurance cost were based on our extremely low-risk use of a 2005 sedan with 49K miles on it. Claiming to weigh collected stats is certainly clever PR, shifting blame for rising costs onto the individual policyholder's driving record.

" Claiming to weigh collected stats is certainly clever PR, shifting blame for rising costs onto the individual policyholder's driving record "

chisue, this is how insurance companies operate, whether you're skeptical about it or not. Rate change applications to state regulators have to be based on experienced facts.

A company fudging its numbers in its own favor would show higher than approved profitability at the next regulatory review. Those unable to get rates they need for targeted results simply withdraw from such states or limit the business they do.

Elmer -- Acknowledged. It's still good PR.

It's also useful if it does even a tiny bit to make drivers think twice about for poor driving habits.

Just heard via radio, " ... 12,000 vehicles were stolen in Toronto last year ...", mainly nearly new, large ones, e. g. SUVs, also pickup trucks.

Mainly in Ontario and Quebec being close to Montreal, from which many are shipped abroad in containers.

MORE bad news for insurance companies.

ole joyful