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jerriblank

AV + Security Bids = Super Confusing. Who Knows What This Stuff Means?

Jerri Blank
5 years ago

I got 3 bids for AV + Security (pre-wire, equipment, installation, etc) for my house. I have no idea what I am looking at. Here is what we asked them to quote:


- Speakers in 2 rooms (kitchen & living room... but should this be one speaker per room? two per room? I don't know!)

- Speakers outside

- TV pre-wire for 3 rooms (one guy included 5 rooms in his bid, that's okay)

- Internet (they're all saying that 3 access points is right)

- Security with 8 cameras


The bids are attached and I would be so so so so grateful if someone who knows what all of this means would look at them and help me decipher which is the right bid. I can't even tell if they are all quoting comparable equipment, or if they are all comprehensive. I do not want change orders (obviously).


I did notice already that on bid#3 the guy left out the actual speakers - so his price will go up once those are added back in (change order before we've even started!!). And I noticed that bid#1 proposed 3TB of storage for the 8 channel NVR (claiming that it would be enough for 1 month of storage), but bid#2 proposed 6TB, claiming that 3TB wouldn't be enough. How much do I actually need? (This is based on motion recording). They are also all quoting different brands - how much better are the brands bid#3 is quoting, or is it the kind of thing where the brand doesn't matter so much? What is missing from these bids?


And so on and so on. Help!


So like I said - I have no idea what any of this means, and I don't know who to hire. All three bids are based off of referrals.


Please help!







Comments (17)

  • robin0919
    5 years ago

    Where are you in the country? These prices seem outrageous from what you asked for!!! It sounds like you might be in CA or the NE. I can't read allot in detail what is on the bids. It doesn't enlarge it enough. I can only read the total amount.

  • Jerri Blank
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    We are in Los Angeles.

  • David Cary
    5 years ago

    They aren't readable enough to really give an answer.

    Each room should have 2 speakers. The speakers are pretty cheap - FYI. It generally doesn't make sense to put expensive speakers in walls or ceilings since the enclosure is uncontrolled and so important for good sound.

    I would ask yourself what you want. LV wiring is a great area to truly waste money. The not obvious thing is that wireless is more affordable and generally better interface. When you designed a wired system, you can sell to those building high end new houses (for the most part) which is .1% of the entire market. So the development (particularly software) is spread over a small number raising cost and limiting quality.

    The software interfaces and expandability with the wireless systems are so much better.


    Here is one random example. Roku (streaming devices) can actually pull faster speeds on wifi then wired. They use a wired connector that has a lower max limit. Why?- well because you can get full 4k on the lower limit so what is the point. The interesting part is that you have to buy their most expensive product to get the wired connector. So you get to pay more for slower speed and then you need a prewire at $200 a pop. And then if you want to move the TV....


    Wired = more secure. That is absolutely true. I could care less if a hacker could figure out what I was watching or could steal my Netflix password. Obviously, my internet and security are more critical. If I was really worried, I would not have wifi at all - and no one goes that far.


    Wifi based security apps do cool things like automatically disable when you get home - based on your phone. They can turn on your lights as you approach the house. They can remotely unlock your door if someone comes to your door and you want to let them in. They have cameras and software that can use facial recognition and only alert you when they don't recognize someone.


    BTW - everyone I know in my area who has streaming cameras needs to pay for upgraded internet (fiber mostly). Sending 8 feeds all the time to a cloud is a lot of uploading. If you don't, internet speed usually suffers. Also in my area, nearly everyone has some camera system. So even the worst criminals cover their face. Unless you have a FTE monitoring all your cameras all the time, you have to ask at some point.... what is the point?

  • mishmosh
    5 years ago

    We live in a world of wireless. I would seriously reconsider hardwiring everything like they used to do 10-30 years ago. Unless you have specialty requirements where you need wired internet, I would go wireless everything where the internet and wifi network are the backbone. Security cameras may be the only thing I'd consider hardwiring but the wireless systems coming out now are getting better and better.

  • BT
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Cameras:

    1) Or I would consider requesting to provide wiring for the purchased equipment and remove markup from equipment purchases, buy your own UPS. Q-See's are like $1000 with 4T and 16 channels..

    https://www.costco.com/Q-See-16-Channel-HD-IP-NVR-with-4TB-HDD-NVR%2c-8-5MP-Cameras-with-Color-Night-Vision.product.100408153.html

    2) Cable TV:

    I would get structural dedicated OnQ or Leviton Structured Media Center You do not need very large IMHO. Homeruns should be at most $75/each. So if you need 3x... Internet should be nothing more than 1x home run to media center

    3) Internet purchase your own cable modem + router or ORBI mesh

    4) In ceiling speakers something like Polk Audio RC80i $100 ( but perfectly honest I would only ask for low voltage wires and box

    5) Security: systems are pretty cheap now, look at ebay

  • kaseki
    5 years ago

    David Cary wrote, in part: "If I was really worried, I would not have wifi at all - and no one goes that far."

    "What never? Hardly ever!" --- HMS Pinafore

    "No one," like "never," is a word choice that should be used with caution. While hacking for personal information is a risk, the bigger risk is an external party using your system for illegal activity for which you might be blamed, or, hopefully rarely, for framing the owner by storing illicit data.

  • Jerri Blank
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    I'm trying to edit my post with better photos of the bids but it's not letting me, so I'm posting them here in this comment - hopefully this helps:








  • David Cary
    5 years ago

    Okay. I can read one great but just one.

    The prices are high but probably expected.

  • opaone
    5 years ago

    Wireless is great technology but it is less secure and much less reliable than hardwired. It's really not good to have your security system suddenly stop functioning correctly because your neighbor installed something that is causing interference. Or the increasing number of wireless devices in your own house began causing problems.

    In theory technologies like ZigBee or Z-wave should eliminate most problems with wireless devices in the home but reality has not been so kind. Even in supposed ideal conditions devices will randomly fall off the network. Interestingly, while more devices make these mesh networks more reliable, too many devices make them much less reliable.

    If security and reliability are important then stick with hardwired.


  • David Cary
    5 years ago

    While wired is more secure (in theory); please tell me a system that I can buy with a good smartphone interface that will call me there is a breach - by cell of course, and can be installed DIY. ELK is so clunky, doesn't have a good smartphone interface, and really gets expensive with add on's. I had ELK in my last house and it is fine but looks really old compared to modern systems.


    I am a convert to wireless. If someone hacks my wifi, that is worth ridiculously more than anything they can steal from my house.


    Reliable? Yes wireless needs batteries changed. But lets not pretend that a modern wireless goes down all the time. I can see 30 wifi signals at my house but somehow my laptop works just fine. If there was some unlicensed illegal electrical activity next door - my wifi would notice it just as my security did. Yes Z-wave could be compromised but modern security uses wifi.

  • opaone
    5 years ago

    The OP is not asking about DIY.

  • David Cary
    5 years ago

    Good point.

  • weedmeister
    5 years ago

    There is over a mile of alarm cable quoted in that bid. Guess this is a large home.

    The number of wireless access points will depend on the home layout. Fortunately, if all your rooms (or many) are pre-wired for internet, adding additional wireless access points is fairly trivial.

    When it comes to speakers, it depends on what you're trying to do. If you intend to make your kitchen a concert hall, you'll need more than one speaker. If you just want to listen to the radio/CD while cooking, one would be enough. If the family/living room is also for a 7-channel TV, you'll need more than 2 speakers. And you'll need to know where that TV is located and where the furniture goes. If it's just for a simple stereo, 2 will be enough.

    To me, speaker sound quality is subjective. What sounds great to one person will sound like crap to another. Otherwise, Sonos, Klipsch, Bose and others make good speakers for indoor and outdoor. Sonos is known for their wireless products.

    When it comes to security cameras, since the house is being built wired would be the way I would go for outdoor locations. For indoor i'd go wireless since they can be moved easily. As to whether you need 8 or 16 channels, how much of this do you intend to look at? You can always get a larger recorder than you need, say 8 channels and only install 6 cameras. Add some wireless later. As to storage size, terabyte drives get cheaper all the time. Ask whether you can swap out drives, or don't worry about it since the price difference is 'small'.

  • PRO
    Jeffrey R. Grenz, General Contractor
    5 years ago

    Break up the numbers into:

    1. Security system (basic w control module) Can it operate independently?
    2. Phone system (do we still use that?) including CATV/Data with base system + per room
    3. Sound system prewire

    Additions:

    1. Sound system speakers, amps, receivers, etc.
    2. TV mounts and/or recessed brackets
    3. Prewire for CCTV, cameras


  • sprink1es
    5 years ago

    I'm doing the same thing right now. My guy I'm going with is really trying hard to up-sell me too, but can't blame him for being a salesman. Most of that Sonos stuff you can buy yourself cheaper (the Play soundbar is $50 less on Amazon, for example) but I guess they do set it up for you... But mine did the same thing lumping everything together, then lumped labor at the end so it was hard to break it apart. Ask them to separate into categories like Jeff ^ said. I told my guy "sorry, I'm not buying Apple TV, amps, and $3k in Sonos stuff from you when I can get the same stuff on Amazon for much cheaper" (in a nice way of course)


    My opinion:


    1. Sound/Stereo - decide what you want to do first. Hardwire old-school speaker wire to in-wall speakers or towers? Wireless Sonos? You can rough-in your own speaker wire for dirt cheap, then never use it or fish it out of the wall if you want it. Sonos is awesome and wireless, but all of their speakers still need a 110v connection... If you go Sonos/wireless, just buy it yourself after you move in (but make sure to remember if the speakers each need their own outlet)


    2. Security will never be cheaper/easier than now. Just do what you want... Yes there are wireless stuff for dirt cheap, but then you're always chasing batteries. Not much advice here other than it's black&white so do it or don't, or at lease rough it all in


    3. Networking. Personally I'm hardwiring cat6 everywhere. Yes everything today is wireless, but you can't beat a hard connection for reliability. My main thought is that in 10 years, there will probably be so many devices (phones/tablets/watches/cameras) all clogging up the wifi, I'd better get all my TV/computers/security and what really matters hardwired so what I want most works for sure.


    4. Cameras. Pre-wiring is pretty cheap - I ran wire for 8 cameras, but am only buying 4. They are a pain to set up the DVR and get them configured and online to your phone app, so I really wanted them to do that dirty work for me... then if I add cameras later it will be simple. Not to mention I might want to swap viewing angles or realize I really want to see my back yard or the street... never know.

    I also plan to just use wireless cheapo cameras for indoors. 1 in my garage, 1 in kitchen or something that's mainly just to watch live if I want to set it up when we go on vacation. I'm not a fan of 24/7 recording inside a house as it makes guest uneasy. Tons of good wireless cams you can just plug in when you want them (vacation/etc)

  • NYCish
    5 years ago
    We just got a quote for 20k for similar things but an expanded scope (more hardware, more speakers, more rooms, more automation) and also live in a high cost of living area (nyc). So as high as the prices are, they seem about right. Expensive, of course. But you aren’t getting ripped off.