Laura,

Can you give me an idea of how quickly the water based finish degraded?

Thanks.

msboc, our total house water based finish degraded within four years. A couple of things: make sure a sealer is used after stain; more coats with WBPU is better than less when done. Never 2, barely 3, more like 4. Pay attention to directions for timing of sequential coats or it will peal off. Write on your Pro contract, pro to follow manufacturer's instructions to the letter, and get a long warranty period (like years) or go to a different Pro.

The water based products are tricky and have different training techniques than the old fashioned finishes. A high end 2 part product (Bona Traffic or Loba 2K Supra AT come to mind) have a very steep learning curve. The sealant/primer is very important. The TYPE of stain (some stains work...others don't) should be matched with the finish. Eg. a "minwax" oil based stain finished with 2 part water based finish = not a good idea. The chemicals should be compatible.

As for oil based finishes over water based "clear" coats = big trouble if not handled correctly. This can go to hell in a hand basket very, very quickly. The finish needs to be abraded, a primer used and then the oil based finish (oil modified would be as 'strong' as I would want to go...but it is up to the WELL TRAINED professional floor finisher).

The ambering should start inside the first few days and continue to darken while the finish cures. Be aware that "cure times" can be as long as 21 days for some of these oil based finishes. The cure time on water based = 5-10 days. The first "damp mop" after a floor is finished can be 14 days. This is rather important when a floor is finishing a "cure".

Eventhough we say it is 5 days to "cure" that means it is 97-99% cured. The "final" bit is really a little longer. That's why we put in the caveat: "First damp clean after 14 days". An oil based finish might take even longer....some have been known to take more than 30 days.

Thanks for the information and guidance Cancork Floors.. It saddens me to tell you that my whole house floors were done by a real floor PRO, well versed in two- part water base products. First one who did the entire house job did not use same manufacture for stain and did not use sealant and did insufficient coats and didn't fix when the problems were identified.. I was a novice then, running around after toddlers etc. so life went on. The second PRO did just 3 rooms: the first one done well enough, the others poorly. We live in a big city. These pro's are well known in our area.

We don't believe we can do a worse job using the same product (one you mentioned), learning curve and all.. We studied up, practiced up, timed up, mixed up after prepped properly, and did the job in 1 single 300 sq foot room. I am very interested in seeing the short, medium and long term results on our job. I can't imagine it will be worse. Frankly, I'd do oil based urethane any day for durability given the expense of these hard wood floors and refinishing.

Avamom,

Unfortunately, I didn't give this procedure due diligence. I trusted the person who recommended the floor guy implicitly. The floors are done. I really am usually pretty careful if not paranoid about hiring people to do work for me. But not this time. I didn't get a warranty. So I'm on my own. In fact the guy forgot to do a sill and I'm having trouble getting him back to do it.

I'm wondering whether I should wait a month or so, and then get a different floor person to screen and add a fourth coat which I imagine could be semi-gloss. I didn't do a stain, so maybe that makes things a little bit simpler.

I appreciate all the feedback from you and the pros.

What exactly happened to your floors after four years? Did the finish wear off? Peal?

msboc, I'm sorry for your hardwood floor troubles. Consumers rely on professionals and manufacturers and too often get left with no recourse.

After the job, our floor's wood chipped quite a bit on our stairs and landing in spite of same humidity of wood (via house). Some large (could be tongue and groove issue?) The finish was dull, not gloss like and with simple cleaning by careful dusting and manufacturer's product floor wash, gingerly applied, not sopping wet, never brightened up. Always dull. How do you clean a wood floor if you can't get it clean with their own products? De lamination of the finish (strings from in-between floor boards and around thresholds) came during the summer, after the wood opens from winter contraction (in spite of house humidifier use and monitoring). These are original red and white oak floor boards.

I'd wait a month and see how it looks. There are always more attempts to correct hardwood floor problems that one can make. GL.

There's more to life people than Bona traffic and minwax omu. First off you need to match finish to flooring AND stain. IMHO omu is outdated and will be extinct soon. There's many types of finishes....
Conversion varnish
Acid cured
Moisture cured
Omu
Hardwax oil
Penetrating oil
Waterborne
and on top of that there's hybrid systems.
You as the homeowners need to research all of this BEFORE you buy.
Here's an example of a good fit- if you want a very clear water based finish on white oak(maple)you have a finish applied that has no tannin pull
If you want longevity use a hard wax oil
If you want ambering use omu
If you want sport floor hi gloss use moisture cure.
If you want turn of the century look use wax.
If you stain sealer is not required as the stain becomes the sealer.Each finish manufacturer has a mm thickness of finish per application which should be followed.
This is why we flooring pros take educational courses to learn about all of this and then years of practice applying to get it right. Again I'll say this ..... When you hire a pro you should start on the NWFA website and hire the pro with lots of really good reviews.
On a side note a really well versed pro will educate the client on finishes.
When in doubt research it out!!!!

We have been in our home for 6 years. The boards with larger grain patterns are almost totally exposed so it takes some time but we don't use harsh cleaners on it. Really just water.

Keep in mind people you should never ever "wet mop" a wooden floor. Microfibre mop slightly damp. I have found in the past with poly' slots of HACKS out there actually use a very low grade and only apply 2 coats. You want superior protection use a superior product. Glitsa,Loba,Pallmans these are quality finishes. IMHO Bona is mediocre and over marketed so many ppl believe that Bona is a hi end finish. I'm not one of those persons.

Can someone comment on Loba Hybrid (2 coats) on red oak? This is what my builder is using. How does it compare to 2 part systems like Supra 2k?

All Loba products are very hi quality. Your builder is onto something. Smart guy!

Hybrid is an oil water hybrid giving the rich look of oil with the dry time of water.

Thanks ultimate! I was wondering if it's as good as the 2 part waterbourne system like the Loba Supra 2k. I read somewhere 2 part systems with hardeners are stronger?

I sell the Loba 2K Supra AT (Advanced Technology) for use on my cork floors. This stuff is AMAZING. It OUTPERFORMS Bona Traffic by 360% according to the Taber Abrasion test (better scratch resistance). It has a wonderful "velvety" feel and outstanding slip resistance ratings (highest in the business).

The scratch resistance is outstanding. I would say it reduces 90% of the scratches on my factory finished cork. Once we started working with the AT we stopped carrying any other product. We used to sell the WS 2K Supra (rated as "good" to "very good" for cork). It just didn't make sense to sell inferior products (even in the Loba line up) for almost the same price. Saving $40/gallon wasn't worth it for us...because the COMPLAINTS about scratches continued to roll in.

Now that we carry the AT (ceramic nano-bead infused polyurethane) the scratch complaints have almost completely disappeared. And cork SCRATCHES...BADLY. So anything that can toughen up cork can toughen up any other wood out there.

I've tested the Loba EasyFinish (which is a 1 part product) which Loba said was "almost as good" ....they just cannot compete with the 2K Supra AT. The hardeners are there for a reason. The cure time on the 2K Supra AT is now 5 days (two coats = 5 days).

The Hybrid is recommended for "dark wood species"...and has very specific requirements for White Oak (as do all Loba products).

I'm a HUGE FAN of the Loba 2K Supra AT...the feel is amazing and the slip resistance is impressive. The scratch resistance is second only to factory-finished Aluminum Oxide.

Yup what @cancork said

Have you used the Loba new waterborne finish, 2K Invisible Protect?

I have quarter sawn/rift white oak floor throughout the whole house, even kitchen and bathrooms. I want them stay light, look natural with regards to the grain, and appear ultra matte (no sheen). Who you just sand them and apply Loba 2K Invisible Protect? Or would you go the route of natural oil and apply their HS 2K Impact oil with a "white" color variant? I don't mind a little bit of maintenance, if they look very good and are easy to fix in the case of a liquid spill or damage.

I've used the Loba line yes. Invisi-no but I hear it's fantastic. I have seen it on white oak-OMG if you want the 'raw' or unfinished look that's the finish for you.

Is that the same product as Lobasol 2k impact oil. I'm trying to work out how durable this with kids and an old dog who has the odd accident. Any feedback would be great thanks. I've never used an oil before.

I think rubio holds up best to pets due to the wax content in it. I've done several refinishes for ppl with pets and it holds up way better than a poly.

Ok I have an oak hardwood floor, sanded and now restained. I did unfortunately pick a oil based stain so from what I have read here I do need to go with an oil based poly. I am not a fan of the yellow or ambering. Especially with red oak stain. I would like your best advice for a strong poly to use. I know the Supra AT was talked about for best strength but since i used oil based stain, thats not an option. Please think heavy traffic, 5 year old boy and pets, who have never had any accidents but old age comes and you should plan for anything. Thank you for your advice in advanced.

If it's minwax stain I'd stick to an oil base poly.

What would be the strongest do you think? I did find that minwax has a water based oil modified poly but have not heard any comments on this product. Any thoughts?

Minwax is generally low quality hence why it's sold at big box stores. Try odies oil for a true superior finish

What do you refinish antique heart pine with? Previously in clear oil and way too yellow/orange. Tying to achieve a mid-tone brown.

Odies 'dark' oil

After sampling Rubio, Woca and Loba products, I've ulimately decided on a combo of oil stains. 've decided on a white layer then will use a layer of Provincial or Jacobean (TBD). Planning on finishing the floor with Bona Traffic HD or Loba Supra 2K - either invisible or Extra Matte.

Questions:

- I am not hearing Dura Seal is just an okay oil stain product. Can anyone recommend an oil based stain company that is better? Need White and Provincial and or Jacobean in their color range.

- Does one always need to use a primer before the application of the water based polyurethane? The Loba rep mentioned that their "Invisible" can be used without a primer, or as a primer. This is interesting as it would give me a chance to test it before deciding to apply either their Extra Matte and get a bit more sheen or apply another layer of the Invisible and keep it super flat.

- Do I need to use one company's product all the way through? Or can I stick with the Dura Seal oil stains and then use the Loba or Bona?

- I do not want the thick plastic coated finish of the polyurethanes especially we we have parquet and chevron solid oak. We want a very low satin finish. (None of the Rubio, Woca, and Loba products are working as well as the oil-based stains to give me the color I want as our wood is very pink tone - trust me I've literally done 100s of samples). Any thoughts on whether Loba or Bona Traffic will work better for the non-plastic finish I want with a low sheen, and will be most durable?

Thank you so much for any advice you can offer with my questions. I do have a professional flooring person and he usually uses the Bona Traffic, but is comfortable using the Loba if I prefer.

Thanks!

Anne

Your DIY witches brew will be a disaster with lots of finger pointing if you hire someone to do what you are proposing. No reputable flooring professional would touch that with a 20 foot pole. When you hire a real pro, you show them the look you want, and they tell you the products that they would use to achieve that look. Anyone that would touch this mixed up homeowner specified mistake is a bubba that you shouldn't be hiring.

I'm not fond of mixing chemicals. Most of the "redos" that are out there have to do with improper chemical combinations. And more than a single stain application has even higher level of risk than a single application. The ideal option is to mix the colour properly and then a 'one and done' application.

I've seen Loba "work" over these mixes...but you have a much higher chance of failure if you do. What species of wood are you working with? Pink usually shows up with red oak....is that what we are playing with here?

Thanks so much for your replies, Sophie and Cancork. My flooring is solid rift and quarter white oak. It is a mix of 5" plank, chevron and parquet - but much of the wood has a really pink tone...but not all. I even had the floor guy test several pieces with that kit because my GC was beginning to wonder if it is red and not white oak. We have tried to reduce the pink and have now stripped 1200 sq ft of the floor twice as it has a really red undertone - both with the Rubio monocoat and then with a Dura stain mix. The wood supplier told my installer to bleach it if I am not happy with the tone. My installer did that on sample boards, but we feel like the wood looks wan afterwards. I'm trying to get to a mid tone brown-gray. I know it exists because I have various samples that are all acceptable to me - we just can't get there with my wood. I'm super frustrated and this is putting me several weeks behind schedule - that is why I have been trying to move things along by mixing colors myself in conjunction with my floor installer..

Cancork - when you say you don't like "mixing chemicals" - do you mean mixing brands? What about the bleach idea? Isn't it standard operating procedure to use an oil stain then a water poly these days if you want o avoid the yellow tone? I don't mind doing the work to sample all Loba or all whatever...start to finish. I just don't think the "one and done" mixed color will work with what I am dealing with here - that is what we started with a month ago.

I am thinking a really shear white coat to balance everything out which seems to work on the test I did yesterday. My floor installer will now make me a sample board for approval from start to finish. I got the idea for the white from the Loba/Woca/Rubio pre-treatments in white. I'd love to get the color I want in one shot. But after mixing literally 100's of colors we are still seeing red tone. At this point I have to move this along and it seems like a pretone or bleach is the best way forward. I guess the main question is what are people's opinions of the products I could use and any ways to support the best outcome. I appreciate your time and thoughtful responses. Anne

Buy a different floor. A prefinished one exactly the color that you want. You've already taken about half the life of the one you have, and are getting ready for another even worse disaster.

Bleaching is different than multiple "stain" applications. It is a chemical application to remove colour from the surface of the wood (like bleaching dark brown hair prior to applying a BRIGHT colour like pink or blue). Once the wood has been bleached, then they apply a stain - which should still be a single mix/single application. And you STILL have a big risk that it won't work.

Sorry but the cool mid-tones that you are trying to achieve with a red toned wood (what I believe to be red oak) is bordering on "impossible". As you've said, you have tried dozens and dozens of mixes and you are still no closer to the look you want.

As Sophie points out, you are running out of wood. If you really want to know what type of wood you are working with feel free to send off a sample to a lab (about $100 to get the test done). They will tell you the species. But if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...it's probably a duck.

My suggestion to "go dark" still stands. If you can't stand red/pink/salmon then you are easier served by going dark. If you don't want dark, then you will fight this for a few more months. What you are asking of the wood (ahem....the refinisher dealing with your wood) is SUPER difficult. As you have found out.

Past results are excellent indicators of future results. Sorry but this is the reality you are working with. And yes, mixing chemicals means mixing production lines.

Ok - thank you very much. I guess I need to find out what wood we have past the simple test we did. Additionally look into the bleach option more to remove the red. I'll send to a lab tomorrow. Anne

We are looking standing our maple floors that are through the entire house.. They have cupping (ten year old house we just purchased) and yellowing where there were no rugs.. They were pre-finished.. We were thinking of staining them a mid tone not dark but have heard from many pros that the dark places go almost black and the light places stay lighter.. What are your recommendations here?

At this point we are just looking to refinish with clear coat.. We are looking to have a hybrid oil/water polyurethane finish... It is an open concept house so the main room is very large.. How does this sound?. can you see any problems and how many coats should be applied? The pro mentioned the finish has a hardener added to it..

There is 1700 sq ft in total so it's a very important decision to make for the future of the house.. Your professional comments would be very much appreciated.. ps the floors are in excellent condition apart from the cupping.

Our red oak floors which we refinished ourselves in our last house are 25 years old and still look great, a little duller in high traffic areas but not noticeable unless your really looking.. Will this new hybrid oil / water finish last like this on these maple floors? We don't want to be redoing these floors in 10 years. It appears there is no way around the yellowing with the oil based finishes, is that correct?

Sorry....one last question.. How many years of warranty should we expect to get from the Pro?

The maple will be hard to stain. When professionals agree to stain maple, they often go SUPER dark. Because it hides the blotchiness that maple is FAMOUS FOR when it is stained. And I mean FAMOUS for blotchiness!!!! Homeowner - you've been warned...just so you know!

It might also be hard to sand. A factory finished maple may have Aluminum Oxide finish on it. It takes a huge amount of effort, from the high-end professional, to get the finish off (I know of several refinishers who add $2/sf to their normal price if they discover the floor has aluminium oxide...it is that hard to deal with!).

So. A high-end, UV cured aluminum oxide finish applied on site will have a good 15 years of excellent wear. A high-end two part water based poly out of Europe (especially if it is ceramic or aluminum oxide infused) will offer 15 years without effort. Neither of these are cheap. Both require specialists with specialist knowledge (especially the UV cured finish...it requires EXPENSIVE machines to do the job).

The solvent based finishes (the high-end ones...not Minwax) offer the 25+ year finish. They stink to high-heaven and they can take as much as 30 days to cure. People with migraines or chemical sensitivities often have to move out for 2-4 weeks (price of a rental unit = way too much for most people). The oil based finishes turn orange. There is no way around it. It is what they do.

And a freshly sanded maple will look pale and delicate. In direct sunlight, it will turn to a strong "margarine" yellow inside of a month! Maple is photosensitive...it gets DARKER in sunlight.

The only thing you can do is leave the area rugs in the closet for a few months so the floor can darken as much as possible. Then you put the rugs down and live your life...with a noticeably yellow maple floor.

And why are they cupping???

Thanks so much for your information. It confirmed our decision to do a natural finish with water/oil treatment. We were told the cupping was from either not climatising the floor before installation or it was from the high humidity in the house. Since we bought it 1 month ago we brought in a dehumidifier and the humidity has gone from 70 to 46% and is remaining at 46. We were told once the cupping has happened it will not go away. We have noticed this in quite a few houses in this area even new homes.

Really good information here. I have a bit of a unique situation. I have a plywood floor in a garage and I'm looking for a polyurethane or some kind of sealant to protect from water, snow, and offer some protection from an occasional vehicle driving in/out that won't be slippery when it gets wet or has a bit of snow ( I could add chips to something to make this better). Any products that would work well for this?

I would look at an epoxy with a texture to it....almost like heavy duty deck paint. Many of them have a finish that is quite slip resistant.

Polyurethane/urethane does NOT like rubber...and tires have rubber on them. If that doesn't bother you then apply several coats of urethane and adding some grit to it would do what you are looking for.

Thanks for the suggestion. The only reason I wasn't going to to with an epoxy is because of the temperature changes with wood. Some reading I've done suggested that it might lift because of movement due to the temperature changes - I live where it gets 30C to -30C from summer to winter.

What is the issue with rubber and urethane? I'm not concerned how it looks, just that it will stay in place and provide some protection.

I meant epoxy over top of the concrete - not the wood. The rubber of the tires will stain urethane/polyurethane a dark "tobacco yellow". It is a chemical reaction that you can't prevent. It is the same reason you can't use "rubber backed" area rugs over hardwood.

You can find textured floor paints that work with both concrete and wood. The DIY stuff will last about 5-7 years. The professional grade stuff (like DuraDeck) will offer 20+ years. With severe temp swings, the exterior grade stuff is probably what's needed. Interior grade stuff has temperature limits of 15C - 28 C. Anything beyond that and they fail - quickly.

Water based pros:

doesnt yellow, very low odour, dries quick

cons: minimum 3 coats, dries quick( harder to apply), slightly less durable.

Oil based pros: longer lasting finish, minimum 2 coats, longer work time, classic amber colour

cons: extremely strong odours( may have to leave for 24 hours or more depending on size of project), doesnt dry as quickly, amber tint doesn’t look good in certain colours of stain.

This thread is very informative. I'd like to use a water-based polyurethane over a staircase I stained last night with a Sherwin Williams oil-based stain to avoid yellowing. The stain was color matched to our new hickory floors, which are stained a medium-dark true brown (no yellow). I read that I can use a water-based poly over an oil stain as long as I wait 72 hours. I have two questions:

1. Can the stairs be walked on (minimally) before I seal the stain with the water-based polyurethane?

2. The Loba poly recommended on this thread doesn't appear to be readily available. Does anyone have an alternate water-based polyurethane that will be durable on high traffic stairs and also user friendly? I'm polying the stairs myself. My local Ace Hardware has Minwax (which doesn't get good reviews on here), Ace brand, and Varathane. Is Varathane any good, or is there something else that's good but more available than Loba?

Thanks!

Yes the stairs can be walked on in socks. Varathane finish is not really considered professional grade finish. I'd stear clear of using it. You should be able to find Bona Traffic fairly easily, it's much easier to find than Loba, at least around here.

We have finished sanding our new oak floors. They are ready to be finished. I’m very anxious trying to determine what finish to use. We are older and only want to do this once. I want low sheen to no sheen. Durability. I will take any suggestions to heart. I’ve researched for absolutely days and still can’t decide. Husband says by tomorrow I have to know what products we will finish floors. I love the oiled floors but thinking of moving furniture at 70 plus to reoil whole floors scares me. Oil is beautiful tho. Help

Susan:
Look up the light-cure finish in Fine Homebuilding magazine, please. January this year or last I think.

I’m in the same boat as figureskater04- I stained my new raw red oak stair tread cap’s with a Sherwin William’s oil-based stain, which turned out great, but now I need a tough poly to apply on top. I’ve heard great things about the Loba 2k Supra AT, but can this be applied over an oil-based stain? If so, do I need to apply the Loba Easy Prime first? If I cannot use the Loba AT over the oil-based stain, what is an equally good (or as close to equally good as Loba) poly that is compatible with oil-based stains? I would prefer no to little ambering as possible, as I’m satisfied with the color of the stain and was going to use a satin finish. Thanks!

I used Loba impact 2k transparent on my quarter dawn white oak. I had terrible results. The floors scratched and stained easily. Loba said the floor were sanded incorrectly but the rep was there during the process. They have awful customer service and did nothing for me. I highly recommend not using there products.

I want to use Loba 2K Supra AT on our unfinished pecan stair treads. The flooring store suggested DuraSeal quick coat but it oil based and from what I've read here it shouldn't be used. 1. What would be a compatible stain and

2. Do I need to use the Loba primer?

Thank You!