First off, welcome e-w-031!

I do believe you posted this in the correct section. I will answer part of your questions, as i know nothing about ferns.

The Manna pro is great stuff! Some people use it unscreened, just washing it to get the dust off. Most of the time this is fine, i tried screening the 2, 25lb bags i got over an insect screen and nothing fell through. If you screen over a 1/8inch screen you will lose about half but this is not necessary. I would highly suggest trying to find a tractor supply store near you.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/StoreLocator?storeId=10151&catalogId=10051&langId=-1

They sell a 25 pound bag for 8.99.

The Turface would work great, however, again I would consider finding a local source, a good place to try is John deere landscapes.

https://www.johndeerelandscapes.com/home/locations.aspx

And ask for Turface Allsport. I had to wait 2 weeks for them to order it and get it in for me, but after sifting, i got 12 quarts of "large"(1/8th inch or larger) and 20 quarts of "medium"(1/8th inch - 1/16 inch) for 16 dollars!

Nothing wrong with buying them off amazon, just wanted you to be aware of your options elsewhere, as they will be much more economical, especially if you are making a larger batch. If you let us know what area, or major city you are near, someone here may already know a good local source.

Hopefully someone else will have some more info on the ingredients, and also know more about ferns. Do you know what type of fern(s) you have? Different types my like different soils.

Again welcome to the forums and best of luck with your gritty mix!

Thanks so much for the welcome and help!

I live in Vermont, not near anywhere with stores. I know I will pay more online but I would also probably have to pay a lot in gas to get to the appropriate stores. But I really appreciate your advice on the economics of it!

As for ferns, I have an Asplenium nidus (bird's nest), selaginella, rabbit's foot, Boston, and one that someone else on here thought was also a rabbit's foot but doesn't have fuzzy roots. I know every plant has an ideal soil and environmental conditions but the place I get houseplants from grows all their pants in the same soil. My cyclamen and spathiphyllum are also planted in the same stuff as the ferns and all have been (up until me putting them into the new coir mix) had been doing very well. I'm guessing that this means that although there may be tweaks that specific plants may do better in, as long as the other houseplants are happy with a soil they will be too. Maybe this is just because I'm such a beginner. :)

my ferns love gritty mix

All potted plants love the gritty if you can keep up with the watering and fertilizing. Gritty would be a great investment for you since you would need less bark than with 5-1-1 and you can reuse the grit and turface almost indefinitely.

I've read that with the gritty mix you have to water more frequently. One person said daily, but didn't say in what conditions...outdoors, greenhouse, indoors? I don't have the time to water my housesplants daily. If its a matter of daily i may just try to get some of the Fafards that have been mentioned. What do you think?

I just found another thread that addresses the issue of watering frequency with the gritty mix. Basically it sounds like there really isn't that much of a difference, maybe a slight one. If I have to water every 3-4 days that's ok. I actually like to water my plants and would like to be able to do it a bit more often than once a week which is what I have to do now.

One thing though... The plants I buy must be planted in something quite superior to the avarage peat based mixes that are referred to here as pudding because when I take the plants out to examine the roots for pests the mix falls away, doesn't seem compacted, and I can't see a definite PWT line. I mean, it's not obviously drier at the top and too wet on the bottom. It smells nice too. Wonder what they use.

Finally found local stores that can get the turface and grit in. Gritty mix we're on! I'm going to take lots of photos to document my experience with switching.

Can anyone tell me how heavy my pots will be?

Even smallish Gritty pots can get unbelievably heavy very quickly. What's a gallon of Gritty weigh? 10 lbs? More? Not sure but plan on it being heavier than you think, especially right after you water.

Thanks Oxboy555. Wondering if I should try the 5-1-1 mix after all. Seems like it would be a lot less heavy and the ingredients will be much easier for me to come by. Any thoughts on one vs. the other?

I would choose the 5-1-1 for your fern. I think the gritty mix works very well for almost any perennial plant (one that lasts more than a season), but I choose 5-1-1 for plants that like evenly moist soil, ones that grow quickly and benefit from repotting more often, and ones in hanging baskets. For example, I am growing a spider plant in a one gallon hanging basket with gritty mix. It is very healthy and growing well. But it probably weighs 25-30 pounds when it's wet. Since I have to move it to the sink to water it to allow the excess water to drain, it is difficult to care for. But, I must mention that it only needs to be watered about once a week inside and maybe only once every three days outdoors during hot spells. Neither the gritty mix nor the 5-1-1 needs to be watered as often as people think.

"Neither the gritty mix nor the 5-1-1 needs to be watered as often as people think."

this is a great point that doesn't come up often enough. My observation through the years is that more plants are killed from overwatering than underwatering. This happens over and over even here in hot, dry Las Vegas! And the problem is infinitely compounded when you have dense, bad pudding soil.

The beauty of 5-1-1 and Gritty is that overwatering is 'nearly' taken out of the equation; once you get into a routine (after using the wooden skewer test for a while), you just intuitively know when to water -- and that's usually less often than you'd think (although still more often than the wet pudding muck that stays wet/damp for weeks).

The consequences from overwatering in gritty/5-1-1 are so much more correctable -- you just back off for an extra day or two. Once the peat pudding is soaked, you have to wait and wait and wait for it to dry out -- all the while your plant is marinating in misery.

I agree with the over watering problems. Over fertilizing is another problem. Anxious gardeners tend to over water and over fertilize. But with mediums like 5-1-1 is it hard to over water.

Yes I agree. I made a small 1-gallon test batch of Al's gritty mix (minus the gypsum or a plant LOL) and was surprised at how long the "soil" at the bottom half of the container stayed moist. Granted, it's November and temps are in the 40's here rather than July with temps in the 90's, but the soil stayed moist far longer than what I thought it might. It was not soaking wet but quite damp even a week after a good initial watering.

TYG

I have moved all our plants to gritty mix. My observations are right in line with TYG. I find that it can fool you, the top of the soil dries out very quickly, usually the afternoon after watering, and this can make you feel you need to water again.

However, its best to use a wooden skewer and/or a wick in the bottom of the pot to tell how wet the middle/lower areas of the pot are. I have been watering between 4-8 days average for all my houseplants. I don't water until the wick and skewer are dry. Accept my aglaonema(chinese evergreen), it gets mad as heck and the bottom most leaves start to dry, yellow, and defoliate. :-) if it let it get that dry. I water it when the wick feels "slightly dryer" than it does the first day or 2 after watering. Usually 4 days.

I also have found that the first week or 2 may required more frequent, smaller waterings with gritty mix/5-1-1. Just until the roots start to colonize in between the particles and latch on. In gritty mix the water is mostly kept inside the particles, instead of between them. Once the roots get more established, expect longer watering intervals.

@ e-w-031: There are definitely different qualities of peat, and of peat based mixes. There is also the factor of age and how far it is broken down. I have bought some plants that i simply have no way of understanding how they were alive. Literally looked like they were in some kind of thick black molasses, that even after 3 weeks in a sunny windows held a ridiculous amount of water, i could ball it up in my hand and ring the water out like a wet rag. I have also seen and made some peat based soils that were "good". Some very good actually. Just not what I want.

Could never get them to dry out quick enough unless watering in tiny sips. I want freedom from watering in sips, and plants that grow more to their full potential without me having to be so extremely careful to not over water. I also love the look of gritty mix. I think it looks amazing compared to "normal" container medium.

e-w-031

Potting mix some of your your store-bought plants are could be coir, it is as light as peat but doesn't compact same. You can read about it on this forum if you search-here is one of the recent threads:

little about coir

Thanks to all for your responses!

smishgibson: Wow--3 weeks and still wet! Even I know that isn't good. :)

rina_: Thanks for the info and link. I should read up on coir. I recently purchased a houseplant blend that was made of coir. I transplanted a few plants and they stayed soggy, not wet, really soggy for a really long time. The plants exhibited really bad transplant shock (my plants usually don't have much shock) and after a while showed signs of overwatering. I let them stay in the medium until I got an alternative which was about two weeks and then I transplanted them right away. At the time of transplanting the coir mix was still really soggy. Maybe there are different grades or something? I'm not very knowledgeable about coir but from the little I have read it always sounds like a good thing.

I ended up getting some Fafard's Nursery mix, as Al and a few others on here said it was the only premixed stuff they would use as an alternative to mixing your own 5-1-1 or gritty. I still want to mix my own and I'm really grateful for all the info on this forum! I just don't have the time right now to make my own mix. The local nursery had the Fafard's so that was just the easiest route for now.

With the exception of one the plants showed no signs of transplant shock after being put into the Fafard's despite having gone through two transplants in two weeks. I used 1 tsp. Neptune's Seaweed Fert. to water the transplants this time. I have no experience with this stuff, I just read that it can help with shock.

I have decided to stay away from coir and even coco chips after some bad experiences with them. I think there is a wide variability in quality. Some coir products need to be soaked and drained to remove excess salt (from sea water). Years ago I bought some coir mulch bricks in an effort to save money when filling many large containers for vegetables. It was cheaper than peat or quality potting mixes like Promix. One small brick would expand to many times its volume when soaked. The first problem was that the water that I soaked them in turned bright red, even after a couple soakings. I wasn't happy about how my veggies grew in the mix with coir, although I can't prove that it was at fault.

In another instance, I tried using coco chips to grow orchids. They also did not work well. I read some studies of their use in orchid growing and found many problems over time.

It should also be said that there is some variability in the quality of peat too. Al's 5-1-1 calls for sphagnum peat moss, not reed or sedge peat. Sphagnum peat is lighter in in color and fluffier. Avoid peat moss that is dark and powdery.

Thanks for the info Ohiofem. I knew there were differences in peat but I didn't know exactly what the differences were.

I tried to grow tomatoes and flowers in containers outdoors a few summers ago in coir and they seemed like they really struggled along. As you said there is some variability but from the reading I've done on this website I gather that whatever medium one chooses one has to know it's properties and how it behaves. Every medium seems to have its own actions that one has to be aware of and balance with fertilizer or whatever. So it may be that I just don't have a full understanding of coir... in addition to the variability of quality.

Sorry about this, but could someone please point me towards the gritty mix formulation? I seem to be all thumbs today. I just wanted to read the thread again.

Here it is at the end of Al's first post.

Here is a link that might be useful: Container Soils -- Water Movement & Retention

Thanks much! The mix is a great starting point. Thanks Al!
I need to transplant some cacti this spring, and would like a mix that lasts awhile, as they are slow growing and need a long lasting mix. The gritty mix sounds perfect.

I've come to the conclusion that probably using a bonsai mix for cacti makes more sense. It seems many cacti growers use it. Similiar to the gritty mix, but different.
I usually used a more traditional cactus mix.

I still have some questions I'm going to use pumice instead of granite, and was wondering what size is best? I didn't really see any reference except at least BB size, but is 3/8 too large? Is 3/16 too small?

Also on the pine bark fines, screened. Is that screened to remove powder? Of it it screened to remove pieces larger than 3/8th's?

Instead of turface, I'm going to use Akadama. Should I screen out smaller granules? It's much like turface, and is a substitute they use for turface in bonsai. Expensive though! I still may consider turface. And granite too, but I want to experiment. I have a number of the same cacti, about the same size, and may grow each in these mediums to see if I observe a difference. And also a control in cactus soil. I will put them in the same type pot, and in the same sunny position. Water the same, fertilize etc. I have these finger cacti that grow like weeds. I will use them as I can make conclusions after one season.

With new users of Gritty or 5-1-1, I've noted the opposite tendency....lack of fertilization. And even when folks fertilize, they don't do it with regularity. That *really* limits growth potential when growing in an inert medium.

Drew, pumice isn't a direct substitute for granite - but you know that. Granite hardly holds any moisture (a little held on its outer surface), whereas pumice holds quite a bit. When I use pumice or scoria, I screen 1/8 - 3/8 inch.

If you're talking Gritty Mix, you screen the bark to eliminate the fine dust AND the particles larger than 3/8 inch (I see you're using Pine, but if using Fir, screen it to eliminate anything over 1/4 inch).

Josh

I'm not new to these mixes. I just want to make sure they are made exactly correct. I'm in my 40th year of growing cacti in pots. I'm very aware of nutritional needs. I even had to do the chemical equations in college. I wasn't very good at it though :) I barely passed my biochemistry classes.

"Drew, pumice isn't a direct substitute for granite"
Al mentions it in his original discussion about the gritty mix.
He makes it sounds as if it can be, but it is unclear, he could have meant as a substitute for turface. I'm not going to use it for the experiment. I have #2 granite.

I want to try the bonsai mixture with pumice, but I guess that should be another experiment. I may add another plant with pumice to see what it does. Darn, I'm up to five plants now! When you say you screen 1/8 to 3/8, do you mean that is the size you want?
Thanks for the info. An EBay seller sells prescreen at 3/8 and 3/16. I thinking both may be good depending on the size of the pot. I actually would like to use it in small pots, and large pots.
Where can I get screens this size? Any hints?

I'm also a little confused about turface. I see MVP is often sold for horticulture use, but allsport is mentioned in this thread? Any clues to the difference? And what would the different sizes be used for? I see smishgibson screens to two sizes. For what purpose?

I see pumice can be used alone as a growing medium, Interesting. I'll have to try that too.

Turface All Sport and Turface MVP is the same product. Different distributors... I use a kitchen strainer to use for my Turface.

I will see if I have a pic...

There. I just shake the fines and then I'm good to go.

Take care,

Laura

Excellent thanks! Yeah I use super fine strainer to remove raspberry seeds. I should have thought of this myself!
I'll have to buy one for use with this product, thanks!
I may built a screen box too. I have to check screen sizes available.

Here is my screen that I use for my fir bark. I keep what falls thru a 1/4 inch
This is my screen my DH made for me. I love it!!

Hope this helps!!!

Laura

{{gwi:2639}}

Yes that does help. I would not have thought of the handles, good idea. But a lot of work for something I would not use very often. For bark i would though. Overall the gritty mix is too heavy for most of my plants. Another reason to find something to replace granite, it's too heavy.

This post was edited by Drew51 on Fri, Dec 6, 13 at 9:46

The more I think, the more I am convinced that Griti mix is more suitable for:
-- Things that do not require a lot of moisture.
-- Things that do not have deep roots.
-- Things that are planted in low volume containers.

So, those mostly qualify for BONSAI and some small ornamental plants. Then if you have a house plant in a ,say, 10 gallon container, the use of gritty gran becomes prohibitive due to weight. And that alone can out weight any benefit associated with that mixture.