With deer I think that's a good ht. Deer damage around here, mule deer, doesn't go nearly as high as I would have thought. Really not much more than 4 ft, none above 5 ft.

My trees start lower in the absence of deer. More like 24 inches. But some of the fruit is too low, just as bad as too high after the back and knees give out.

The Fruitnut

Thanks Fruitnut! And, you think cutting out a central leader of that size won't bother the tree too much? -Glenn

I couldn't get your photos up. But cutting the tree off above 4 good laterals cann't hurt anything. Good plan, go for it.

The Fruitnut

Thank you!

Glenn:

I think the height you have to start your vase is fine, but how did you get angles of 90 degrees on all four scaffolds? It seems you will have an essentially flat tree, as opposed to a vase with angles of 60-70 degrees. I don't know what you have under your trees, but in my orchard, low horizontal branches cause me problems when mowing. They slap me in the face and I often knock off fruit as I try to get around the tree with my commercial walk-behind mower. I guess with a smaller mower it would be easier.

Don't worry about setbacks from removing the central leader. I have sawed off the central leader from trees 10 years old and older, and they never skipped a beat. Now is a good time to do it to discourage regrowth this season at least.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Don I think they mean branches at 0, 90, 180 and 270 when looking down from the top.

Hi Don-
Thank you as always.
Afss & you are both right. I do have branches at 0, 90, 180, and 270, but they do have 90 crotch angles. I had read that crotches between 60 and 90 degrees were good (after all, my espalier has 90 degree crotches), but I now realize that I overdid it a bit. Though, when traveling recently, I did see open vase apple trees with similar 90 degree crotch angles. I agree though, I am always concerned about ease of mowing. Anyway, I'll shoot for more like 60 degrees in the future. Looks like I'll have a flat bottom vase in this tree. I can always prune back those 4 scaffolding branches, so it's a shorter flat base. Thanks again, -Glenn

Glenn, I have a number of trees that i am preparing to shape. How did you force the branches out to the 60-90 angle? I have never done this so was unsure on how to attach spacers or shims etc.

Also i am wondering for pruining young fruit trees, is it better to wait for the spring so that if some branches have winter damage from weather or animals that they can be removed then?

afss,
I plan on doing that by setting up temporary espalier strings. (It works good on an abandoned candelabra so I figure I'll do the same with the tree going next to it.)

Hi Afss-
I am by no means an expert here, and so I'm not sure if what I did is advisable. By going to 90 degrees as you see in my pic linked above, I may have over done it.
I use two methods to train my branches:

1. Simply tie the branch to the base of the tree, (or a stake on the ground if you have to) using green jute twine from your local hardware store or garden shop. If you are tying it to a stake on the ground, be sure you are not going to trip over it, or hit it with a lawnmower wheel, etc. I'm not worried about your tripping, etc, but rather that you'll pull over the tree. I tie a bowline so I know it wonÂt girdle the branch.
2. I use wooden clothespins (the ones with springs)... on my very young trees, but not in the way that everyone else does. I now know that people put them just above a newly forming branch to help push it down (so the clothespin is closed around the central leader, on top of the newly forming branch). When I first heard about people using clothespins, I thought you actually hang them on the new branch. And, thatÂs what I did. They act as slight little weights that pull things down. ItÂs very easy to train to 90 degrees, or whatever angle you want with these little weights (and then I use the jute twine to move them horizontally where I want them). IÂve seen them make a slightly darker spot on the branch, but the day after I move the clothespin, the dark spot is gone. At the diameter of branch that IÂm working with, the clothespin doesnÂt actually tighten around the branch but rather itÂs still a little loose and you could actually slide the clothespin until you hit the next leaf-stem. IÂve never girdled a branch with a clothespin. But, it does require a little maintenance at first sometimes adding a clothespin here, taking one off there as the branch moves to the desired crotch angle. Obviously, this only works with new growth. IÂm not sure if all of this is advisable, but it works fine for me. Can anyone think of any disadvantages here?
   IÂve never actually used limb spacers. I think limb-spacers often have nails in the ends of them to hold them to the tree correct? I used to be a little nervous about that. I also wonder if you would need to move a branch in steps with a limb spacer, where as a clothespin offers a constant pull.
   As for the pruning, IÂm afraid IÂm probably not qualified to answer. But for me, I just wait until the end of winter to do the pruning. I havenÂt had a lot of winter damage.
   Good luck!
   -Glenn

Thanks glenn.. I'd like to try to "force" the limbs into the desired positions soon and then prune in the sprin incase i have loss. So far my only loss has been to deer. But my luck i would space and thin only to have the deer eat them. I am considering an electric fence for the winter to enclose my orchard area to try to keep the deer out... not sure if it will work, but it can't hurt.

Be careful not to force the limbs too much too quickly or the branch crotch can break.

I don't think a standard electric fence is likely to do much good. Deer jump right over a normal size fence. Deer fencing is usually about 8' to 10' tall. Deer fencing of appropriate height probably won't have to be electrified to do the job.

For me, electrified or not, a fence really isn't an option. I just spray 'Liquid Fence' (rotten egg based) when I don't have fruit and Deer Away (peppermint oil based) when I do have fruit. As long as I stay vigilent, and as long as the deer pressure isn't too high, it works. But, it's a continous process. -Glenn