I will start. Depending on taste, some wine grapes are good eating, and most are decent eating. No table grape will ever make good wine.

The next questions are ill-posed. Will you have hybrids or vinifera (google them)? The production of a mighty vine like Frontenac or Lambrusco can be many times the production of a weak vine like, say, Sangiovese.

Weaker vines will produce sooner but you should start seeing something at 3 yrs and be at maturity at 7 yrs. YMMV.

Wine grapes have small berries and thick skin. The color, flavor, and tannin is in the skin so you want a high skin to juice ratio. Most table grapes have large berries and thin skin... just the opposite of wine grapes. Wine grapes also have seeds and table grapes often do not.

I agree with Glib that most wine grapes taste very good, but are (to my preference) not as enjoyable because of the skin and seeds. I slightly disagree with Glib that "good" wine cannot be made from table grapes. You probably wont make a $20+ bottle, but a skilled winemaker can make a pleasant wine.

Yield varies a lot by how you choose to prune / trellis the vine and spacing between vines. Generally they are planted 6 to 8 ft apart and produce 10 to 12 lbs per vine, which is about enough for 1 gallon of wine. Quality generally increases when yields are lower, so often fruit is dropped resulting in 5 to 6 lbs (1/2 gallon) per vine.

to backyardener..so my simple math tells me that i would need roughly 200 vines to make 100 gal. of wine. now..i here you about the tanin and i understand, but can i use say 75% wine grape and 25% table grape and come up with a good quality wine? this way i can have my eating grapes and wine grapes. before i forget thanks for explaining things and glib i'm studing hybrids and vinifera. wow, a lot to take in.
luke

The most popular size for barrels is 60 gallons. If you are making wine on the scale you are talking about, I think 60 gallons (with some extra for topping) is a good target. You can estimate between 1/2 to 1 gallon per vine, but it really varies a lot by varietal, layout, and management.

I would NOT mix wine and table grapes in a wine. Plant the number of vines you want for table grapes and the rest wine grapes. Mixing will bring the quality of your whole batch down. If you want to play with wine from your table grapes, make a small, second batch. While drinkable, it will not be as good as the wine grapes.

If you are interested in grape growing and wine making, you should check out the winepress forum:

Here is a link that might be useful: Winepress

I make my wine in 5 gallons carboys, and it is just fermented grape juice. Surely one can add tannins by fermenting in oak barrels. Guess I am a purist.

Certainly you can make good wine with some table grapes. Two years ago I have 33% Alicante in every mixture, and that is something that just gives you color. Last year I made a 40/60 Shiraz/Foch mix which is excellent, and Foch is one of my favorite table wine grapes. In Italy I have drank incredible dessert wines made with table grapes, one with the justly famous Moscato, the other(fragolino) made with Concord grapes. But sweet wine requires more manipulation of the wine...

more questions...while planning and prepareing my site can i start my vines in containers. would 1 gal. size be large enough or maybe go to a 3 gal. size. i'm thinking that i would like to plant a cover crop til in grow a 2 cover crop til in this way i can rid weeds and put green manue in the soil. also at this time i'll get soil samples so i can add what ever it might need. seems to me if the area is prepped ahead of time things will grow better. so second ?, what would be a good cover crop for grapes?
luke

Bad idea, they have a strong root system. What's wrong with cardboard and wood chips?

Starting the vines in containers will not be of much benefit. Establishing a vine is about root system development, so growers typically measure a vine's "age" by how many years it is in its current location. A 2-year old vine planted in a new location is still referred to as a 1st year vine. They have huge root systems so any container you choose will stunt their growth. I have a few growing in 1/2 wine barrels (30 gallons) on my patio and they are weaker than in-ground vines.

Soil test is a good idea, but make sure you target your additions to grape vines. Because of their huge root system, they often grow well in poor soil so you don't want to create a soil that is too fertile. Overly vigorous vines are as much of a problem as weak vines. Cover crops are not uncommon in vineyards. Here is a little info:

Here is a link that might be useful: Cover Crops

thanks for the info. thought maybe could get a head start, looks like no go. cover crop link was a good read. ok, another question. when vines are planted in spring, how much growth is expected for first year. then second year? hope that i'm not being a pain in the behind.
luke

This I do not know precisely because my FIL mowed them accidentally the first year. Surely 3 feet at least, starting from a good 18 inches whip in a good site, but it could be 5 or 6. The other reason why the cover crop idea was bad is that with fruit trees you want to plant ASAP, because the wait is long.

I would plant now if you can. Once they get established they are very hardy, but that can take a few years.

They don't mind poor soil but weeds can be something that stunts their growth. Don't be too quick to prune them the first two years, wait until their roots are established.

Read up on them this winter, this is a long term crop so you have lots of time.

This is my first time on the web, I planted a green grape, do not know the name..it has seeds and this is the 4th year the vines have produced fruit, but the first of which the fruit is of a size and taste to be edidible. I have the vines growing along my pool fence and are very healthy looking. I know of no other people here in Northern Maine growing grapes to ask questions....please contact if in my area...thank you....sharon

i guess my next step is which place i'll order from. i think i have to at least feb.for time. any suggestions?

luke

Wine grapes are generally smaller berries and seeded. The flavors are very strong as a rule and you can detect the sort of wine that they will produce. Some few, like the Muscats are great table grapes. Most popular wine grapes are Pure Vinifera on the West Coast, and prone to several diseases and Phyloxerra root louse, so are not much grown East of the Rockies.
The popular supermarket table grapes are picked less than ripe for shelf life, and taste a bit like cardboard.
My favorite table grape is Alden, a large berried Muscat hybrid developed in Geneva NY.

From what I read in the above post, I have a wine grape.
It is small, thick dark skin, has seeds & not too sweet.
I was given the vine & told that it is a Italian wine grape.
I grew it in a 3 gallon pot for 3 years.
In the five years it grew roots out of the weep holes & take over the flower bed. I dig it & move it to the Vineyard, the first vine in a weedy, grasses field.
After six years it is now fruiting well, again.
I do not weed it, no compost, only water it when it blooms though fruiting to make sure it has many grapes.
So it is kinda wild.
Forgive me, but can anyone guess what the name of this vine is?
No pic's at this time .

Wine grapes often make a great juice. Most table types are a bit flat when made into grape juice, 'except Concords'.

Since you are in NJ, the high rainfall will cause fungus problems. You should choose grape varieties that are very disease resistant. Shuyler, Isabella, and Norton are good. Norton makes a good wine. Shuyler makes an ok table grape. Isabella is a concord type that makes good jelly, jam and juice. Even with these you may have to spray. You can Google ATTRA for a good grape spraying document. You can grow other varieties, but you will have to spray even more. You might even be able to grow a Muscadine like Noble which is very disease resistant.

Here is a link that might be useful: Fruit