OK, tonight after dark I'm going out and pooping and peeing on all my Roses but they damn well better bloom all year and be bug free.

krazee, I don't think we're deriding composting toilets, or wise use of resources. I think gardeners are far more in tune with recycling, composting, and water conservation than most people. Any rose gardener in a drought-stricken area is concerned about saving water.

But claiming that a urine spray is some kind of magic miracle cure for any rose ailment, or that adding E. coli laden material to the nearest flower bed is a wise idea, obviously has prompted a lot of skepticism here. For example, the idea of adding, as you put it, "fresh solids" to the planting hole seems questionable--fresh manure of any kind is going to burn rose roots. Also, if fresh manure is buried too deep in the soil, it isn't going to break down because there is not enough oxygen at depth to aid the decomposition process.

With respect, we're not questioning your point of view so much as the depth, rigor, and scientific basis of your comments.

IMO, krazee needs to get off her soap box and quit trying to jam her ideas down our throats. Enough already.

The way I look at it is,
We are always told NEVER to use any droppings from animals that are carnivores, such as dogs, humans, cats, etc in our composters, so WHY would I EVER use human "droppings" on my roses? or other plants for that matter? End of story.

Geez, I'm even hesitant to use composted horse manure let alone raw human waste!

I don't even know how to trust or know if the producer/seller has used correct composting procedures to heat the pile enough to kill dangerous pathogens? Assume smell test would be tip off but not 100% assurance.

Composting toilets may have their place if they pass sanitation regulations and become cost effective but that's another thing altogether.

Milorganite is bagged product of commercially processed human waste. Some local nursery people say it repels deer. If that's so then I would have to assume it has some residual odor to "offend" deer.

As if there aren't already enough challenges growing Roses and other ornamentals without introducing e-coli.

If you have ever been to the Far East, you know this is the fertilizer of choice for the rice paddies and fields. While in Korea during the war we never ate anything grown below ground in the mess because of the many pathogens involved. I'll stick to chemical fertilizers thankyou, bcause they are generally pasteurized in manufacture. Cow and horse are different because they are never used fresh, but well-rotted, and their diet is considerably different then ours. You, of course, can do as you please, but for me humanure belongs in the settling ponds.

If you think livestock (yes, even cows and chickens) are not being fed animal by-products, you're nuts!

This post made my day thanks for all the belly laughs and mental pictures.........lol

Well stated,sunnybunny and hoovb. I just know this forum will come up with a solution that involves PANTYHOSE. lol

Don't laugh, pantyhose can be used as a "camp toilet" providing automatic aereation to the composting product. When filled, it may be dragged into the garden and placed with one leg on either side of the rose bush.

Thanks sooo much for starting this thread - Greenhaven! I was wondering if anyone was going to say something about these "crazee" posts from "krazee"!

Myself, I ignored them mostly, with the exception of the occasional LOL. But I was thinking that this person was trying to get us to kill our roses, maybe as some kind of sick joke! Then I wondered if they had something against rose gardeners, or maybe the roses themselves???

Anyways, I'm just really glad that this all has been brought out into the spotlight. Maybe they will get the point!

Shelly

If you think livestock (yes, even cows and chickens) are not being fed animal by-products, you're nuts!

No, we're not thinking that. We're a pretty educated group here. Many of us here have read (and been horrified by) Pollan's "Omnivore's Dilemma" which describes commercial meat production in detail.

But krazee, that's not the subject of this discussion.

Respectfully, are you willing to discuss the scientific basis for your claims about using raw sewage directly in the garden, the scientific basis for saying that urine prevents blackspot?

Over the years here I've seen claims that foliar disease in roses can be prevented or cured by Miracid, nonfat milk, corn gluten, and a few other common household ingredients. None have proven to be true. I simply want facts, real evidence when claims are made.

I'm with Sunnybunny--I use biosolids from the local water treatment plant and it's wonderful stuff. It's processed to be free of pathogens.

I'd never use fresh manure of any type on my plants. Not only does composting reduce pathogens and weed seeds, I don't want "hot" manure burning my plants. I don't have any problem with a composting toilet--I've heard of them before, and it's not a bad idea. The health department and neighbors might disagree, however.

While manure can contain many nasty organisms, urine from a healthy person is pretty much sterile. I wouldn't use it directly on the plants (don't want to burn them) but it is an excellent source of nitrogen and can be added to compost piles as such.

So I'll get my humanure processed by the water treatment plant, thank you. And I'll conserve water by letting my grass go brown in the summer and collecting bathwater to give my more critical plants a drink. My car can get a little dirty, and then get washed at a place that reuses its water.

The end result is that krazee4rozez and I are trying to do the same thing--use less water and have less of a negative impact on the environment.

Using raw human waste is simply idiotic and I think that's pretty well substantiated.

Composted waste is completely different and by that I mean PROPERLY composted waste. To compost properly the pile needs to generate lots of heat and it needs to mature.

I do know people who urinate on their compost piles to add nitrogen. And when I planted roses one time, I did use uncomposted horse manure, but I buried it about a foot deep - I had a huge hole filled with all kinds of stuff. That rose is about ten feet tall now, so it worked OK.

Several years ago I did post a link to the humanure handbook on this forum. May have been under a different name though.

In any event, the idea of composting is great and I don't think anyone can argue with it. The problem with most composting is that people don't do it correctly - they don't get the compost temperatures high enough to kill the pathogens, and they don't let it mature long enough to kill the rest of the pathogens.

Kentstar - that is why we are told not to use droppings from carnivores, etc. And I support that argument to the extent that I don't trust any of my neighbors to compost correctly. If they knew what they were doing, they would not only use the droppings, but the animals as well.

Remember, in the end we and every other living thing will be compost anyway.

That however, has little to do with preventing disease. I use compost on my roses every year. No fertilizer. And it helps them grow.

However, some roses are attacked by bugs, others get blackspot. Compost and humanure etc., have absolutely nothing to do with that. The roses that get blackspot shouldn't be grown in my area. So if they're too bad, I get rid of them and get something else that is happier. This particular year has been bad because of the rain and even Mons Tillier got a touch of blackspot. With some drying, that should clear up. Spraying waste or dumping waste on the rose isn't going to help with the blackspot.

You can buy composting toilets at Home Depot - they're not so far fetched:

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&productId=100466732&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=100466732&cm_mmc=shopping--google--D29X-_-100466732

If you do a search, you find lots of information on them, for example:

http://www.compostingtoilet.org/

Here is a link that might be useful: The Humanure handbook

You know what - you don't have to take my word for it. You can try a well-aged urine spray on a rose that isn't doing so well - maybe one you've considered removing from the garden anyway - and see if the treatment works. If not, I will pipe down and quit mentioning it as a cure-all for rose diseases. But trust me, when that PM or BS or rust is gone within a week, and your rose is more vigorous and vibrant than any of the others you own - you will be THANKING ME for turning you on to such an amazing way to keep your plants healthy - for free!

You don't tell us where you live. So I don't know if you have the same disease pressures that I do, I don't know if your growing conditions are even remotely similar, and I don't know what varieties of roses that you are growing. I don't have nearly enough information about your growing conditions to even begin to try to measure them against mine.

The primary issue, though, is your insistence on intruding into every thread by saying this "cure-all" will work on all problems. It won't. It really won't. And I can't "trust you" because you are vague with details and specifics.

I live in Southern California - coastal area. I grow over 400 roses.

In any event, you are welcome to disregard my advice - your loss. I will, though, continue to use well-aged urine and humanure tea to treat the rare disease/fungus that crops up in my amazingly healthy garden. Truth be told, I can't remember the last time one of my roses became diseased or infested - the only times I have an issue is when I bring home a potted rose that already has something going on.

I live in coastal Southern California too, and I'd like to come look at your roses. May I?

Do you belong to any of the local rose societies, perhaps? If so, maybe we've met.

Kathy

Kathy,

Absolutely. What city do you live in? Email me privately to arrange a visit.

Dianne

lucretia said: "The end result is that krazee4rozez and I are trying to do the same thing--use less water and have less of a negative impact on the environment."

Unfortunately, there seems to be this mindset that if we are not whizzing on our roses and poo-ing in our planting holes then we are all irresponsible, synthetic-loving, Earth-killing people who don't care at all about the environment. I take the stance that we don't have to use humanure in ANY form, or urine spray of ANY age to be environmentally resonsible, and that is the most offensive to me.

Humanure and synthetics are NOT the only two options, and I would venture that the use of unprocessed human solids is less responsible than many other choices. And to tout it as a cure-all is just being deceived.

Er, perhaps the fact that you live in So Cal has more to do with not having black spot than peeing on your roses.

"Why do we need to disinfect and process what NORMALLY comes from our bodies?"

Because there are organisims in human and other waste that can be harmful if ingested. You can't just poop in your yard on top of plants. First of all it's probably against the law and secondly it's not healthy.

You can't just poop in your yard on top of plants. First of all it's probably against the law and secondly it's not healthy.

Why? My pets have been pooping in my yard for years with no ill effects on them, the wildlife, or my family. Animals in the wild have been pooping anywhere they wanted without rampant illness. What is so radically different from human waste than, say, cat or dog or horse or bird waste?

Americans are fussy about poop - yes - and it's ridiculous. My three kids routinely go outside to take care of their bodily needs, and go wherever the fancy strikes them. They're INCREDIBLY healthy, just like my plants, and we've never spawned any diseases!

Dianne

How does one send a "private email" on this forum. I'm in San Juan Capistrano.

And . . . if your kids are running around in the garden pooping -- I'm not so sure I want to visit after all. Yech!

She doesn't have e-mail set up in her profile.

I KNEW IT!!! Southern California. Hah. Bwahahahahahahahaha..... Ow, busted a gut, better run out into the garden and scare away the blackspot.

Apparently, now krazee says you can use 1/2 cup of menstrual blood in water to help your roses! Can you imagine how long it would take to collect up 1/2 cup of the stuff? I'd be sitting on the john for an awfully long, long time!

"Animals in the wild have been pooping anywhere they wanted without rampant illness. What is so radically different from human waste than, say, cat or dog or horse or bird waste?"

But there have been illnesses. Remember the spinach that was contimated by pig manure? I had a elderly friend that died of Cryptosporidium from eating an apple from an orchid where they probably had cow manure on the ground. There are laws about picking up after your dog. And any person that allows a dog to poo in their yard over time will have to bury it. Cat's bury their poop. Horse poop is scooped and put in hay. Most people are probably not able to compost manure to the point where it's sanitary and not dangerous. You have heard of e-coli, haven't you? You better hope your kids don't pick up a piece of poop and get it on their hands. That's how e-coli is picked up. And I'm sure there are local ordinances that regulate you being able to poop in the yard and just leave it there. It does get in the ground water.

I'm not against using human manure, as long as it's treated. Your way is crazy.

you might be interested in this:

Human Waste Overwhelms India's War on Disease

By Kenneth J. Cooper
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, February 17, 1997; Page A27
About half the world's reported cases of polio, a crippling disease virtually wiped out in Western countries, occur in India. Each year, diarrhea kills 500,000 Indian children. A jaundice epidemic strikes a small district of India's Rajasthan state as regularly as the annual monsoon.

Those deadly diseases and others that afflict India can be traced to the same source: drinking water contaminated by human waste. Infected water causes an estimated 80 percent of disease in India, according to the World Health Organization (WHO), making poor sanitation and inadequate sewage disposal the nation's biggest public health problems.

"Waterborne diseases in India are very, very common. Every year, there's bound to be a few epidemics of viral gastroenteritis, typhoid, cholera," said P.C. Bhatnagar, a community health worker for the Voluntary Health Association of India.

Fewer than 30 percent of India's 950 million people have bathrooms in their homes or easy access to public toilets. The rest routinely relieve themselves in the open -- along roadsides, on farmland or in municipal parks.

Link

I'm going to take pictures of my yard and you can tell me if my whole family is dying of dysentery.

KFR, you are not listening. You also have NO knowledge of microbiology, pathogenicity, or epidemiology...or basic human biology...and I am beginning to question your basic hygiene. This has to be a joke.

And you'll be a single anecdote, passionately arguing that your one experience totally discounts hundreds of years of collected data (both anecdotal and thoroughly systematic) contradicting you. Public health services exist for a reason, no matter how fondly benign you believe Mother Earth to be.

Dianne (krazee4rozez), define "well-aged urine" please.

And how far out in the woods do you live? I suspect you don't live in a subdivision or surely your neighbors would have spotted you and the kids relieving yourselves in the yard and reported you by now.

Nobody here is being intentionally mean. Several of us are quite odd, and we all get along fine. Just give us factual information, scientific references, photos of your rose garden, etc. I agree with diane_nj that your blackspot problem pales in comparison to mine (and hers), so chances are REAL good that even "well-aged urine" won't touch my disease problem. (Believe me, if I thought there was a chance of it working, I'd be tinkling in a bucket right now, and if my neighbors didn't complain about my over-ripe alfalfa tea this weekend, a little urine isn't going to bother them.) But I'm very sure it will handle my rust problem - which I don't have. So jump back in. We'll listen to your proven facts and be generally friendly - well, mostly. But don't tack your infomercials on every post you read. That's pretty annoying.

Sherry

LOL - great thread! Even funnier than krazee4rozez's posts are the responses. I can picture people's looks of disgust as they read her posts on fertilizing with pee and doot!

Just got back from taking a dump in the yard and the mosquitoes bit my ass all up!

Man this is RISKEY BUSINESS!

Anybody wanna see the pics?

Rob

OK Rob

LOL. I am laughing so hard, my sides hurt.

Liz

Even the humanure books talk only about composting it. Not just pooping out in the yard or on plants.

Dianne (krazee4rozez), define "well-aged urine" please.
And how far out in the woods do you live? I suspect you don't live in a subdivision or surely your neighbors would have spotted you and the kids relieving yourselves in the yard and reported you by now.

Well aged urine is urine wherein the oldest void is a minimum of 5 days old. Once you get a pot going, it is always considered "well aged" as long as you leave at least one cup in the vat. Kind of like a sourdough starter - you can multiply the urine and share with friends who are in a bind and need some asap.

And actually I live right smack dab in a suburban track. Our back yard has a 7 foot fence and no one has ever said a word about the compost or fresh solids. Certainly, the kids do not relieve their bowels in the front yard :) And yes, they know to follow the way of the cat and bury their feces under a bit of soil.

Dianne

Rob, did u use the pantyhose method?

ok -- since you PROMISE the kiddos bury it, I DO want to come see these 400 roses. You have hidden your email. I have not, it's in my profile. So . . . please email me and give me an address and a time that would be good.

Kathy

Hi, all, it's Eric's wife, Michelle.

After reading this nonsense, and I am quite interested in conservation and the environment - I have to say, comparing using human poo and wee in a garden to minds like Magellan and Michael Jackson - wow, that's some powerful ego.

Forget gas, batteries pee is new power source
Scientists can create cheap hydrogen from urine for use in fuel cells.
Oh God, More fuel for this thread. This just popped up on my MSN home page.

From a society standpoint, KFR is not so far off the mark. In Southern California, Orange County in particular, a big deal is now being made about the new Ground Water Replenishment System (GWRS), a joint project of the Orange County Water District and the Orange County Sanitation District. At a cost of $487 million, GWRS is reclaiming 70 million gallons a day (mgd) of toilet water and injecting it into the ground water aquifer below OC, where people draw it up to drink and water their roses, among other uses. As water becomes scarcer, this program will likely expand in the future as OC produces some 240 mgd of wastewater which is now sent into the ocean. The byproduct of this process is called biosolids, some of which is trucked out and used for composting and other beneficial uses, including fertilizer for growing non food products like cotton.

See: http://www.gwrsystem.com/

Oh no, I forgot the pantyhose!!!
I'll never be a good garden crapper!

BTW, Do I wear the pantyhose whilst I poo... I can't see how that would help and could be messy... OR is this just a convenient collection device that I wear all day until I fill it up? OH, maybe you mean on my head... or is it both. I could wear them on top of my head and tie both the legs around my nose that would seem to be most beneficial in this situation... THAT must be what you mean!
I could fill up the legs of pantyhose with poo and hang them out on the clothesline to dry out the poo. This would have the double effect of creating a dry soil amendment AND IT"S sure to keep the JAPANESE BEETLES away. WOW!, this IS looking better all the time!!!

Ohh, I just found the post about the pantyhose from Michaelg, LOL, LMAO!!!

One question though, when the county hospital comes and puts me on a lithium based medication, how will that effect the quality of my poo... in terms of fertilizer value off course.

I need your opinions...

Do you like the minimalist model?
{{gwi:308217}}

The executive?
{{gwi:308218}}

Or the one for those who enjoy the finer things in life?
It has an ecclesiastical look to it, don't you think?
{{gwi:308220}}

A MUST HAVE FOR ALL GARDEN POOING AFICIONADOS...

{{gwi:308221}}

krazee - please.

First, you are in south CA. You're not going to have blackspot anyway. Ever wonder why the rose companies are located in CA and not on the east coast? So the idea of urine spray as a fungus deterrent is utterly irrelevant because you're not dealing with any of the disease pressures people in humid areas are.

Second, can you explain exactly why urine, which is basically a source of salts and amino acids, excess dietary constituents like vitamins, and any drugs or their derivatives, will fight blackspot? And if you have a bacterial infection, say a urinary tract infection, or AIDS, swine flu, etc., how will that additional disease help fight blackspot?

In fact it won't. You might actually want to learn a little more about plant biology before making the kinds of claims you're making.

And also public health! People used to spread their feces and urine and everything else around. In fact, they called it "nightsoil" and dumped their chamber pots out the window. And we used to have the occasional outbreak of cholera or bubonic plague to contend with.

The finished organic compounds need to be broken down into their constituent parts to be safe for the public but more importantly, assuming that you really do care about your plants, they need to be broken down so that they can be used by the plant! If you plant a fish with your corn, the way the Pilgrims were supposedly taught by the Indians, the corn doesn't suck the fish up into the stalk. The fish breaks down and the compounds are taken up. In the same way, I take my rose clippings, compost them, and they become once again available to the rose. The pink rose doesn't simply suck up the red one out of the earth.

Exactly the same thing has to happen to human waste, after which point, it is just fine to use. But the reason we have kidneys is to help our bodies eliminate waste and toxins. You are advocating spreading those toxins around on the soil willy nilly. So someone with cancer, who is undergoing chemotherapy, should be spreading that chemo around?

Carrying this to its logical end-point, one has to condluce that it is not necessary to wash. If human waste is to be recycled in a raw state, one has to assume that there is no health risk from it regardless of the type of disease your neighbor may have. And if there is no risk of infection or anything else from it, there is no health benefit associated with hand washing, which then becomes simply a cosmetic affectation.

My suggestion is to go to a homeless shelter in a big city. You need not come to New York, although that might be the best. Take a look at the drug addicts and the crazies who show up each night. Breathe the brisk aroma. Some of them may even have TB. They haven't taken all of their medication so the TB has developed into a strain that is resistant to known medication. They urinate pretty much wherever they are.

Because we are so silly, we want to prevent infection from spreading. As a result, we actually have quarantine units for the people who spread disease. The air is filtered going in and out of the unit and so is the water. The public health risk is considered too great to allow the people to roam freely until treated. Under your scenario, this is all wrong.

I think you are all missing the point. We are destroying the Earth by trying to process our normal, natural elimination. Why do we need to disinfect and process what NORMALLY comes from our bodies?

Water is at a premium and we are wasting it with every flush, flush, flush of the toilet. All that wonderful goodness sent to the sewer.

This is not about me being a radical or being annoying on this board, this is about how all ideas that change the world are initially decried and ridiculed by the masses!

Oh and one other thing. What do you mean by "process" our natural waste?

Why do you think that the project Curlydoc mentioned happens to work? The water is drawn up through the stones and sand and during the process it's coming into contact with oxygen and guess what? It's thereby "processed". Ditto the sewer water - I'm not aware of anyplace in the US that simply dumps raw sewage into the waterways at this point. Sunshine and oxygen do the processing.

Your ideas about recycling aren't radical in the least. Your ideas about using fresh raw human waste have been proven entirely wrong countless times. Rather than Magellan, I would suggest that the better comparison is to the Church, which rejected Gallileo's theory that the earth revolved around the sun. All evidence to the contrary, they stuck with what they preferred to believe, not that which could be demonstrated.

I think this could exist as fun thread, but not an attempt to persuade krazee to change her views. I personally have a horror of well-intentioned people who don't know what they are doing.
But check out the recommendation she made on this thread (Angel Face) and it should become clear that she can't possible grow not just 400 roses but any roses. Who else thinks roses look like this?

MAsha

Sorry to persist, the thread is called "recommendations for unusual color HTs". I don't want to be accused of making it all up:-).

I know gray water etc addicts. St Pete has reclaimed water in some areas mine being one. No it does not smell of poo, but does save potable water. I would not garden without my reclaimed water. http://www.stpete.org/water/reclaimed_water/index.asp It has been done for years we were number 1 and 2 in the USA I think.

Guess I know why these roses have brown petals .... couldn't help it. http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/roses/msg0707405928885.html?5

Brother, I am still laughing over your posts the next day ! Thank you!