Is this something new?

Nope, not new. FAIK it has always been that way because of the botulism risk associated with the peels.

But I just checked the BBB in 1978 (the oldest edition I still have) and it says to peel first. I would hazard the bet that it existed long before that but Linda Lou may know for sure.

Dave

I really don't know for sure how long that has been the safety rule. As far back as I have been canning, in the early 1970's, I know that was how it was then.
If you want to keep the potatoes firm, more like store canned ones, add some Pickle Crisp/aka calcium chloride to the jars. I used 3/4 tsp. per pint.

I canned several quarts of potatoes last year and plan to do 48 or more this season. IMO, the idea of peeling spuds is completely wrong and has no purpose except to get rid of the most nutritious part of the veggie.

That being said, I don't open the jar, drain the water and eat the potato. It gets fried in a skillet, baked, deep fried - basically heated to a temp that will kill any botulism. But don't take my word - the Centers for Disease Control says pressure canning will kill the bot spores. It takes It takes 25 minutes at 212 degrees to kill them, but pressure canning (which allows the temperature to rise above 212) can lower that to 20 minutes.

So don't throw the very best part of the potato into the compost pile! And don't waste time peeling them!

Mike

Canning potato threads

Here is a link that might be useful: Recent canning potato threads

You can do as you like, Mike, but we still advise everyone to peel the potatoes.What if you open them and are contaminated with botulism.. so what happens when you drip the water on the counter, get it on the spoon rest, the dish cloth ?? You have still contaminated your kitchen and possibly yourself. You don't have to eat the food to get botulism. We are now being taught you can get it through your skin or in your eye. Since you can't see, taste or smell the botulism, I would not take a risk. All that cooking won't retain many of the nutrients in the skin anyway. You will have cooked the nutrients out of them.

I vote for dried. Much safer and they rehydrate quite well.

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE CANNING OF POTATOES BECAUSE WE HAVE ALWAYS PUR THEM IN A ROOT CELLAR AND THEY KEEP VERY WELL.

I DO KNOW THAT NEW POTATOES THAT HAVE BEE4N KEPT WELL WATERED HAVE VERY SOFT SKINS AND ARE REMOVED EASE WITH A GREEN SCRUBBER.

Wiring Man

When cooking fresh I leave skins on for baked and potato salad. I use russets for baking. They get coated with oil and coated with Kosher salt then baked. The red skinned potatoes are simmered very slowly as their skins are very loose and slide off once cooked. They do add color to potato salad. I add a bit of dried mustard powder to my potato salad along with dill weed. The only time I peel is when making mashed. They are also usually red skins, and are peeled and cut into chunks, and cooked in chicken broth or chicken buillion and water, instead of salted water.

Wiring Man, you're right, when potatoes are first dug the skin is very fragile and can often be rubbed off. After they are "cured" by sitting out in the air, the skins toughen.

I found the oldest Ball Blue Book I have, the 1969 version, cost 35 cents. The directions for potatoes are:

"Potatoes-White or Irish

Wash and scrape freshly dug potatoes. Wash again. Boil 10 minutes. Drain. Pack, hot, into hot Ball jars, leaving 1 inch head space. Add 1 tsp salt to each quart. Cover with boiling water, leaving 1 inch head space. Adjust caps. Process pints 30 minutes, quarts 40 minutes at 10 pounds pressure."

I imagine that the "scrape freshly dug potatoes" has to do with the observation of Wiringman, that skins can be easily scrubbed off. So even then the peels were removed, even if not peeled.

Annie

Definitions (as I understand them to be after researching):

Clostridium Botulinum - It is an obligate anaerobe, meaning that oxygen is poisonous to the cells. A Gram-positive, rod shaped bacterium that is an anaerobic spore-former which produces oval, subterminal endospores, commonly found in soil.

 Clostridium Botulinum Spores - Inactive Clostridium Botulinum Spores are found in soil and water throughout the world. In the spore form, these bacteria are relatively harmless. The spores are produced by the bacteria when they are in conditions where they cannot grow (i.e., in a oxygen environment). The spores are an "alternative life form" for the bacteria - a way for the bacteria to go into a dormant state that is resistant to many environmental assaults.

The problem occurs when, in an anaerobic environment (i.e., void of oxygen), the spores germinate into vegetative or actively growing cells. As the vegetative cells grow they become overpopulated and begin to die. As they die, they produce deadly neurotoxins (Botulinum Neurotoxins) that are referred to as botulism. The toxins are rapidly destroyed by heat, such as in thorough cooking. On the other hand, the spores which produce the toxins are heat-tolerant and will survive boiling water for an extended period of time. Fortunately, ingestion of the spores is safe, except in infants, as the highly oxygenated and highly acidic environment of an adult human digestive system prevents the spores from growing and producing the botulinum toxins.

 Botulinum Neurotoxins (BoNTs) - The most potent natural toxins known. The family of BoNTs comprises seven antigenically distinct serotypes (A to G). While the botulinum spores are heat stable, the toxin itself is heat-labile, so heating low acid foods to 176°F (or boiling for 10 minutes*) and boiling corn, spinach and meats for 20 minutes*, before consumption, can greatly reduce (i.e., basically eliminate) the risk of illness.
*(plus one minute per 1,000 feet above sea level)

 Botulism (botulinus intoxication) - A rare but serious paralytic illness caused by Botulinum Neurotoxins.

NOTE: Currently world cases of Botulism have dropped to about 1000 worldwide and about 110 per year in the U.S. Of that about 25% are food-borne (i.e., 27 to 28 cases annually). Source: www.MedicineNet.com

NOTE: The chances of dying from:
 a car accident are 1 in 18,585
 choking on food are 1 in 370, 035
 food poisoning is 1 in 3,000,000 (and zero chance from home canning if you can foods properly and don't eat any canned food that came for a container that had sprung a leak or become bloated)
______________________________

Boy am I confused! Sounded, to me, like wordwiz (Mike) had it right and then linda_lou confused me again. Before I go any further, it is important to state an opinion I have.

In my view, instructions regarding canning are overprotective (even neurotic). I believe this is because of two reasons:
1) to protect against possible law-suits by the one in 3 million who, each year, gets Botulism from food they, or someone else, had canned, and
2) because we canning folk are viewed, by the people who write such instructions, as rather simple-minded so it is important to keep everything as simple as possible.

Example: Sterilizing the jars might be a good idea in some cases but if one is pressure-canning, what is the purpose? Admittedly, it makes sense to give your jars a good washing under any circumstance... primarily to get out any inorganic toxins. If you left some mercury in a jar then it would make no difference how long or at what temperature you cooked the food (that you canned in that jar), at the end of the pressure-canning process that mercury will still be there and will be just as toxic. (By the way, if you are washing out mercury, don't let it go down the drain!)

But other than a thorough washing, why go to the trouble to fetch canning jars from boiling water of from a hot oven? Not only does it appear, to me, to be a waste of effort and energy, it creates an unnecessary health risk by exposing canning people to discomfort and possible burns from handling hot jars, and it increases the chance of dropping a jar, which could also adversely affect one's health.

Remember, in pressure-canning everything is going to get up to a temperature in excess of 212º F. Even if you put low-acidic potatoes into a jar that are already contaminated with Clostridium Botulinum Spores that have germinated into vegetative or actively growing cells and that have been dying off and producing toxins, proper pressure-canning will KILL those spores and their toxins! Right?

A properly conducted pressure-canning process kills bacteria, spores and toxins because the temperature inside the canner reaches 240º F for a specified period of time (BALL Blue Book: see page 123, under Bacteria and see page 68 under Potatoes - White or Irish). And, of course, storage temperatures should also be followed so that a substantial negative pressure is maintained after canning.

DISCLAIMER! I am just a retired CPA who is asking questions. Do not assume that my conclusions are correct. I seek to find out if, what I believe to be logical conclusions, are correct or not.
____________________________

Linda Lou, here is how I reacted to your Wed, Jul 29, 09 response to Mike. All of my responses include an assumption that the jars and lids are throughly washed with warm and sudsy water and then well-rinsed before canning.

----

"You can do as you like, Mike, but we still advise everyone to peel the potatoes."

- Who is "we"?

----

"What if you open them and are contaminated with botulism.. so what happens when you drip the water on the counter, get it on the spoon rest, the dish cloth ??"

- If you pressure-can the potatoes properly then there CANNOT be any botulism in the potatoes UNLESS the lid has leaked... correct? It makes no difference if the skin is or is not on the potatoes... right? It's all about the integrity of the canning process... right?

----

"You have still contaminated your kitchen and possibly yourself. You don't have to eat the food to get botulism. We are now being taught you can get it through your skin or in your eye. Since you can't see, taste or smell the botulism, I would not take a risk."

- "Not take the risk" to do what? Not take the risk to pour out and eat something from a mason jar that has leaked? Duh! Regardless of the contents, whether potatoes, pork or poke salad, as long as it is properly pressure-canned, all bacteria is killed... right? Potato skins are on the outside of the potato, not at its center. So the heat passes through the skin on its way to heat the center. Anyone who is paranoid about potato skins harboring Clostridium Botulinum Spores could just add some additional time (15 minutes?) to the cooking-without-potato-skins process as a precaution... couldnÂt they?

As long as the seal has not leaked, then no bacteria will have gained a foothold in the jar... right? Careful handling of the contents and the proper cooking of same after uncanning, would be the applicable procedure regardless of the contents... right?

----

"All that cooking won't retain many of the nutrients in the skin anyway. You will have cooked the nutrients out of them."

- All my life (I'm over 60) I have heard what Mike said... that the potato's skin is where most of the nutrients are. Are you saying that, in the pressure-canning process, nutrients from those skins completely leech-out and gather near the top of the jar so that they can escape? I am not a chemist nor a physicist but that sounds like a questionable assertion.

----
In conclusion -

All this over-protectiveness reminds me of a woman I heard about who was so afraid of an unwanted conception that she would only do the horizontal mambo if the fellow wore three condoms. Struggling with a so-called safety issue of whether to pressure-can potatoes with or without skins, to me, is a red herring... an irrelevant and time-wasting distraction from what one should be focused upon... proper pressure-canning, seal leakage awareness and adequate cooking after uncanning. Anyone willing to tell me that I wrong about this?

Currently I can small potatoes, with their well-scrubbed skins on and add 15 minutes to the pressure-canning process as a safety precaution (which I believe is unnecessary). I have not found anyone who has provided me with a credible explanation of how I am taking even the slightest risk by doing so.

However, for those who choose to ignore empirical evidence and sound reasoning and, instead, make unfounded judgments probably motivated out of unreasonable fears, I say go ahead and do what you want. It's no skin off my potato. ;-)

Tom in Virginia ( tfbva@aol.com )
______________________________

The suggestions below are good examples of how to prevent food borne C. botulinum:

- If consuming home canned foods, heat low acid foods to 176°F or boiling for 10 minutes* and corn, spinach and meats for 20 minutes* before consumption to reduce the risk of illness.
*(plus one minute per 1,000 feet above sea level)
- Oils infused with garlic or herbs should be properly refrigerated (45°F) to prevent the growth of C. botulinum spores.
- Canned food products, both home and commercial, should be inspected before use. Cans with bulging or damaged lids, leakage, or off odors should not be used because growth of the bacteria can often produce a gas, causing the can to expand.
- Home canned foods should be canned in pressure cookers to ensure the proper time, temperature and pressure requirements to avoid the growth of the bacteria and spores.
- Although commercial food products have a low rate of botulism, read the label and throw out any and all damaged or expired cans.
If canning meats, use nitrites or salt in the brine in addition to heat to reduce the growth of C. botulinum.
- Vacuum packaged meats should be refrigerated or properly stored in the freezer for extended use.
- Keep hot foods above 140°F and cold foods below 40°F to prevent the formation of spores.
Wash hands, utensils, and food contact surfaces (FCS's) with hot soapy water after they touch raw meat or seafood, before food preparation, and after using the bathroom.

Source: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:8F7EtdznNrkJ:edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fs104+%22Clostridium+Botulinum%22+kill&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Note: My previous post refers to canning white potatoes (i.e., not sweet potatoes) which I can in quart jars. I do not can sweet potatoes.

WOW!! a bit overwhelming on the post Tom! Not to mention that most of it is redundant. But buried in there somwhere is a question or questions I assume?

This one: - Who is "we"?

Is USDA/NCHFP as Linda Lou is a certified instructor and as such is obligated to teach the approved guidelines. Those of us who have taken certified classes tend, for the most part, to agree with them. Those that haven't had any formal training tend to be open-minded when a dispute over the guidelines arises. And those who are set in their ways of doing things since Grandma Gertie did 'em that way tend to get defensive and even hostile. Some approaches are more helpful than others, but that doesn't make any of them absolutely right or totally wrong.

But the standardized guidelines do call for peeling potatoes.

This one: I seek to find out if, what I believe to be logical conclusions, are correct or not. Can't be resolved. It is a matter of opinion - he thinks, we, think, they think - and personal opinion is just that, personal. All I can offer you is that the OPINIONS of USDA/NCHFP are based on lab testing and formal food science education. It is up to you to decide what that is worth.

Likely I have missed other questions so can you point them out?

There are counter-arguments, often made, to all of YOUR opinions outlined above. But whether they are more valid or not is just a matter of opinion. ;)

So it boils down to personal choice. Yours. Whether you choose to follow the guidelines or ignore them is your choice, your risk, if any exists, to take.

Sure there are degrees of risk: over on another canning forum there is a heated debate claiming it is perfectly safe to BWB can meats. To me that is 100x more risky than leaving the skin on potatoes and proof of the total lack of common sense we folks have sometimes. But again, it's JMO. We aren't going to change the guidelines with opinions, only further replicable lab testing can do that, and I'm glad for that. Otherwise some people would be canning all sorts of things and the botulism count would be 1000x higher than it is. ;)

Dave

That is "we", those trained and certified to teach safe home food preservation.
You will find that ALL safe information on canning potatoes state they MUST be peeled prior to canning. That is where the botulism spores are, in the dirt of the peel. You don't necessarily have to visually see any dirt to have the spores still there. So, not peeling them and leaving them in the sealed jars means it can still grow. Pressure canning times and methods will not insure that all botulims spores would be destroyed during the times given in the tested methods. Those times and methods are ONLY for PEELED potatoes.
So, no, your statement of adding time may or may not hold true. It is, as you said, a risk you are willing to take. I sure cannot guarantee your method is safe... I would never tell anyone to try that, for sure.

If you are worried about the nutrients of potato skins, then canning them would not be the method for you to chose to get those nutrients. You would eat them fresh.
Canning isn't the most nutritious way to store foods, just one method. Freezing retains the most nutrients.
And, only foods processed for less than 10 min. need boiling for 10 min. for safe use for canning. Process longer than 10 min. and the jars are sterilized in the canning process. The heating of the jars in the oven or in a pan is so you don't get breakage from putting hot foods in cold jars. Even a raw pack food has boiling liquid put into the jars. If you put too hot of a food in a jar that has cooled too much, you can get jars that break, especially as they go into the canner.

Linda Lou, thank you for providing me with a response to my posts.

You stated, "So, not peeling them and leaving them in the sealed jars means [the spores] can still grow. Pressure canning times and methods will not insure that all botulims spores would be destroyed during the times given in the tested methods." It appears to me that most people, including myself, prefer to leave the skins on primarily to avoid all the peeling involved, especially when using small potatoes. Leaving the skins on also helps to maintain the potato's flavor and reduces leaching. The nutrients in the skins is a secondary issue.

Tom

This is written by Angela Fraser, a well known food safety scientist. She is highly respected in the food preservation safety field :
Thoroughly wash fruits and vegetables before canning even if they will be peeled. Garden soil contains bacteria. NOTE: Potatoes must be peeled before canning. Potato skins contain a high bacteria count increasing the chance of botulinum toxin formation.

http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/how/can_04/potato_white.html
You will see this also says to peel the potatoes.

Procedure: Wash and peel potatoes.

I know this is brief, but it is all I can do for now. Anytime a recipe, method, or procedure is given, if you change anything in those instructions it will alter the safety of the food unless it is just changing dry seasonings, using a SMALLER jar than called for, and increasing the acid content, and a few other things. It is very important that all instructions are carried out for safety in preserving a food.

Although this appears a hot topic, at the moment, going back to the beginning, it triggered a memory of a book I read when I was 8 or 9 and for the life of me I can't remember the name but no matter, I imagine it was a story of orphans, move to the country during the war, to stay with some crusty and aloof relative, as that appeared to be my taste in those days ;-)
anyway my point, in the book, I remember that the Children see the Gardener burying a tin in the garden and become convinced he is up to "no good" turns out the old friendly gardener is burying New Potatoes for Christmas.
I remember asking my Gran about it and she said she hadn't done it since the war.
I was done a google search on it and it seems to be a UK thing, as we don't have basements very much, but I imagine if you have a cool basement, you could use this method, I wouldn't like to try and dig the box out in December where I am :-) would need a blow torch!
the method is to pack in silver sand. and seal the tin?? don't know why? in case it gets dislodged?
Their are also people in the UK who grow a crop undercover for Christmas.
Obviously these are small scale solutions but I thought I would mention them.

What Linda Lou is basically saying is that all tested recipes are for peeled potatoes. That means to be definitively certain of food safety only peeled potatoes can be processed.

Now, if a home canner wants to take a stab at guessing an additional time for processing for potatoes with peels and then can them, that's up to the individual. But it's only a guess. No testing has been done to determine a safe processing time for unpeeled potatoes.

You want us to prove you're mistaken and we can't do it. But neither is there any basis for approval. Without lab testing you might as well use a Ouija Board.

As Linda Lou is aware, here west of the Rockies we have the highest level of soil-borne botulinum contamination, so we are particularly reluctant to experiment.

Carol

Well said Carol!!

For what it is worth - which ain't much I know - you cannot buy commercial canned potatoes with the peels on them.

Meanwhile, several of the NCHFP publications (available on their site) do include the disclaimer that "Pressure canning times and methods will not insure that all botulism spores would be destroyed during the times given in the tested methods." The toxin is, the spores may not be.

You can say it is just a cover their a** disclaimer if you wish but it is more likely a way to address the many variables they have no control over - the many home canners who over pack the jars, don't dice to the prescribed size, don't pre-vent their canners, don't allow proper cool down procedures, have faulty gauges, etc. etc. etc.

As I have said here before, if you take a class you quickly discover that the 20 people in the class have at least 10 different ideas of what constitutes 1/2 cup of something much less what the same canning instruction means. It is mind-boggling!

So it boils down to follow the tested guidelines or make your own choice. Just make it a well informed one.

Dave

Thank you Linda Lou. I realize that your responses to my info requests are affected by a number of things, including the amount of time that you have available. I appreciate any time and effort that you expend on my behalf (and the group's behalf... as they are learning also, n'est-ce pas?).

I requested that you point me in the direction of any certified test results that would support the claims that you made. Apparently, at this time, you are unaware of any such data.

I have found, all over the net, where so-called experts have parroted one another or knee-jerked USDA guidelines. But nowhere have I located any test results supporting your claim (or anyone's claim) that "...pressure canning times and methods will NOT insure that all [botulinum] spores would be destroyed."

How are citizens, or members of the Garden Web, well-served by people who hold themselves out as experts, when those experts cannot readily provide hard evidence to support their claims? Isn't that part of what being an expert is all about... having your knowledge and assertions well-rooted in the fact-base of your area of expertise? And just because the government (e.g., National Center for Home Food Preservation instructors and/or their manuals), or any educational institution, or anyone who is well-respected in the field of home food preservation, says it is so does not make it so.

I'm not challenging your veracity (or your attempts at being accurate) nor accusing you of being wrong, and I assume that you are well-intended. I'm simply stating that neither you, nor anyone else at this site, has provided any credible evidence to support your claim.

As you no doubt already know, USDA's "Complete Guide to Home Canning, Guide 4: Selecting, Preparing, and Canning Vegetables and Vegetable Products" addresses the home canning of "Potatoes, WhiteCubed or Whole" (page 14-7). Although this procedure recommends peeling the potatoes, no where does it state that you MUST peel them. You would think that, if peeling was such a critical safety-step in the process, they would have emphasized the absolute need-to-peel, wouldn't you?

Here is a quote from "Home Canning, Guide 1, Principles of Home Canning: Ensuring safe canned foods" (page 1-6) --
------
"Botulinum spores are on most fresh food surfaces. Because they grow only in the absence of air, they are harmless on fresh foods."

"Most bacteria, yeasts, and molds are difficult to remove from food surfaces. Washing fresh food reduces their numbers only slightly. Peeling root crops, underground stem crops, and tomatoes reduces their numbers greatly. Blanching also helps, but the vital controls are the method of canning and making sure the recommended research-based process times, found in these guides, are used."

"The processing times in these guides ensure destruction of the largest expected number of heat-resistant microorganisms in home-canned foods. Properly sterilized canned food will be free of spoilage if lids seal and jars are stored below 95°F. Storing jars at 50° to 70°F enhances retention of quality."

And on page 1-8 --

"At temperatures of 240° to 250°F, the time needed to destroy bacteria in low-acid canned food ranges from 20 to 100 minutes. [Note that they did not write "some of the bacteria" or "most of the bacteria.]"
------

So the USDA's position is as I asserted earlier... what is vital is following their processing times (and pressures) when using the pressure canner, AND, by doing so you will kill ALL of the "largest expected number of heat-resistant microorganisms." If it was vital to also peel the potatoes, then they should have written it that way.

It is not uncommon for there to be a misstep when converting lab results into an explanation for the masses. That is why I am looking for lab/test results, in order to bypass the language which, in this case, is somewhat ambiguous.

For example, is USDAs definition of "largest expected number of heat-resistant microorganisms" referring to the largest number after peeling or even if you leave the peel on? You assert that it relates only to potatoes that have been peeled but you provide no credible proof to back-up that claim.

Certified test results, wherein the aforementioned processing times (and pressures) were followed, should reveal whether leaving skins on will result in some botulinum spores surviving the process. It would be helpful if the USDA would admit that 99.999999% of the time all spores would be killed, even when you left potato skins on, if they have such evidence.

Isnt this the bottom line (and please correct me if I am wrong or have overlooked something):

1) Whenever you open a jar (which appears to have maintained its vacuum) containing preserved low-acid food, you should handle it as if the contents are contaminated with botulinum toxins, because you never know.

2) Once out of the canning jar, having determined that the food does not emit any foul odor, you would still want to boil low-acid foods for at least 10 minutes (at altitudes below 1,000 ft.) to destroy any toxins present, because you never know.

Then you can safely eat that low-acid food (say, potatoes with their skins on) never knowing (or caring) if it did, or did not, initially come out of the jar with enough botulinum toxins to wipe out a small town.

So, to reiterate, as long as the above 2 steps are followed, why MUST one remove potato skins? At this point, that is a rhetorical question as it appears I have gotten all the answers, on that question, that this forum has to give.

As I previously stated, statistics show that death on the highway is substantially more likely (1 in 18,585) than dying from food poisoning (1 in 3,000,000). If you believe we MUST peel the potatoes before canning, then are you and your loved ones wearing helmets when you drive around in your vehicles?

We must balance our priorities and there is more and more evidence that people are incurring a variety of stress-related illnesses from pressures relating to demands on their time. So far, I still do not see any evidence that justifies devoting time to peeling potatoes (for canning). Therefore, Id rather devote my time in ways of avoiding health risks that are substantiated by fact.

Because it appears that I have exhausted my efforts to locate, via this forum, the evidence (i.e., test results) that I seek, I shall look for it elsewhere. I doubt that the USDA will provide me with any test results that will undermine their guidelines. Maybe someone will come across this forum who will know if and where such evidence exists, pro or con, and will direct me to it.

Albeit anecdotal (just like some of what you have stated), I stumbled across info stating that guidelines in European countries leave the decision of whether to-peel-or-not-to-peel up to the person doing the home-canning. To me, this scant info is insufficient to justify any readers, of this forum, to throw-out USDA guidelines that recommend peeling the potatoes, but it is a lead that I am trying to pursue (with no success, thus far). However, I have given all the time to this subject that I can for this month.

Thanks again for your kind efforts to assist me in my research.

Tom (tfbva@aol.com )

This question is completely out of curiousity if anyone knows the answer.

According to Carol, we have the highest level of soil-borne botulism spores here in the West. I know the bacteria forms spores when growing conditions are not favorable for growth (i.e. in an aerobic situation)

Where, in nature, does the bacteria grow which forms those spores? Obviously there is a population that is happily growing before it forms spores. Is it just in anaerobic pockets in the soil?

I'm sure I could look this up if my toddlers weren't so fussy about my time on the computer these days. . .

Sharon

You are not going to find many studies of what was done in the labs to determine the results online or in books. You won't find many of them published for the public use. Not even for my use. There are some diagrams and pictures of thermocouples, things like that.
I do know this much, there is a brief document written about some of the equipment used, etc.
Also, I know it costs a minimum of $10,000 to test one food. It is often as much as $50,000 per food. I am sure the tests are more than thorough if that kind of money and months of research are done.
So, again, if you want to take the risks of doing something not regarded as safe, then it is just that, your risk and not something a person trained in food safety would advise you to follow.
Sorry I cannot give you any published information. What is available is provided for you at the National Center For Home Food Preservation or in the new version of USDA Guidelines. You can search there for what is available. I only instruct the findings of things, how to safely process foods and how to safely store, safe storage times, etc. I have no PhD. Elizabeth Andress at the Univ. of Georgia is one who does and may be able to assist you more.
You can email here there since there is a contact form on their site.
Sharon, the spores don't need absence of oxygen to grow, it is the toxin, as in a sealed jar that grows in an anerobic condition.
The spores are in the ground, and in the air, etc.

I'm also new to canning potatoes and just did my first three batches. Two batches of pints and and a third batch of quarts. I took great care in washing, peeling, and washing again, per the instructions. I prepared one batch of pints using the current Ball book, and a batch of pints and another of quarts using So Easy to Preserve that I ordered from the University of GA. I adjusted the processing and cooling time for the quarts as required by the instructions.

I cut the potatoes to the sizes as described in the recipes. For the quarts, the potatoes were cubed. I followed instructions carefully about processing times, venting, pressure, cool down, etc. I believe that both batches of pints are fine, but on my batch of quarts, I may have made two mistakes, and I'm not sure what to do next.

During the cool down, after processing time was complete, and the stove turned off, I mistakenly lifted the weights when there was still about 10 minutes left on the cool down. I have both the gauge and weights on my canner, and the pressure had returned to zero, but I immediately put the weight back on for the remaining time before removing the weight again. I then let it cool the required 10 minutes before removing lid and removing the hot jars. The jars were still bubbling furiously and there were a LOT of air bubbles. After the boiling stopped, the air bubbles continued for a long time.

I know that I vented the correct length of time prior to putting the weights on. I took great care to fill the potatoes to the proper headspace (1 inch) and then added boiling water to the proper headspace (1 inch). I removed air bubbles and adjusted the contents as needed to maintain the headspace. After being removed from the canner, the contents continued to boil for a bit and I noticed a lot of air bubbles in the quarts that had not been present in my pint jars in the previous batches.

After completely cooling, all jars are properly sealed, but the liquid in the jars is lower than it should be, and the top inch of potatoes are no longer covered by liquid.

I looked for explanations and have come to suspect that I may have overpacked the potatoes. Although I didn't jam them in, I wouldn't characterize it as "loosely packed" as I read later when looking for answers.

What should I do? Are they properly processed or not?

The following email was sent on May 25th to Dr. Elizabeth L. Andress, Professor of Foods and Nutrition and Extension Food Safety Specialist

________________________________

Hello Dr. Andress:

I'm a retired professional in central Virginia. Over the past week I have sought factual information (e.g., lab test results) relating to home canning of white potatoes WITH their skins on.

If you go to you will see a dialogue re: same (expressed primarily in my posts... VirginiaTom). In the Mon, May 24, 10 at 19:44 post by linda_lou, she suggests that I contact you.

When, and if, you have the time, please read the forum's posts that relate to the skin-off-or-skin-on issue before responding to this. I make that request because, even though I will distill down my questions for you (see below), your kind efforts in responding might otherwise miss the mark.

Here is a quote from USDA's "Home Canning, Guide 1, Principles of Home Canning: Ensuring safe canned foods" (page 1-6) --
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"Botulinum spores are on most fresh food surfaces. Because they grow only in the absence of air, they are harmless on fresh foods."

"Most bacteria, yeasts, and molds are difficult to remove from food surfaces. Washing fresh food reduces their numbers only slightly. Peeling root crops, underground stem crops, and tomatoes reduces their numbers greatly. Blanching also helps, but the vital controls are the method of canning and making sure the recommended research-based process times, found in these guides, are used."

"The processing times in these guides ensure destruction of the largest expected number of heat-resistant microorganisms in home-canned foods. Properly sterilized canned food will be free of spoilage if lids seal and jars are stored below 95°F. Storing jars at 50° to 70°F enhances retention of quality."

------

I am not challenging USDA's assertion that peeling root crops (e.g., potatoes) substantially reduces the number of botulinum spores. I have no evidence to confirm or refute that assertion and am willing to accept it as factual.

I am primarily interested in the answers to three questions:

1) Have USDA test results (or any credible test results) shown that, by following USDA canning guidelines (re: said potatoes), the "destruction of the largest expected number of heat-resistant microorganisms" is ensured regardless of whether potato skins have or have not been removed? They refer to 'research-based process times' but, in their publications, do not offer the public any way to access that research.

2) Irrespective of the answer to the above question, if one should handle the uncanning of all low-acid foods as if the contents are contaminated with botulinum toxins and, thus, follow the prescribed post-canning cooking guidelines in order to kill any toxins that might be present, then isn't the skin-on versus skin-off issue moot?

It appears to me that some of USDA's low-acid pressure-canning guidelines (i.e., the one recommending that potato skins be removed) are precautions taken out of a fear that the home cook will not properly follow the post-canning cooking guidelines. If I am correct about this, then I find it somewhat offensive that the USDA has chosen to treat the citizenry in such a manner without revealing this tact (i.e., it is not only treating the public like children, it chooses not to expose that it is doing so).

3) In a time when transparency is sought in all facets of food sourcing, content and preparation, shouldn't the ambiguity and the inconsistency addressed in the above questions, be brought to USDA's attention? Should they not bring clarity to same in their applicable publications?

Thank you for your kind attention to my questions. I believe all of the participants in the Garden Web's forum about the pressure canning of potatoes will be interest in, and will undoubtedly benefit from, your response. I know I will.

Tom Brendt

The following email was sent on May 25th to Dr. Angela Fraser
Associate Professor/Food Safety Specialist

________________________________

Hello Dr. Fraser:

I'm a retired professional in central Virginia. Over the past week I have sought factual information (e.g., lab test results) relating to home canning of white potatoes WITH their skins on.

If you go to you will see a dialogue re: same (expressed primarily in my posts... VirginiaTom). In the Mon, May 24, 10 at 0:41 post by linda_lou, she refers to you as a well known food safety scientist who is highly respected in the food preservation safety field. So I thought you might be willing to shed some light on an issue with which we are struggling... maybe even put the issue to rest.

When, and if, you have the time, please read the forum's posts that relate to the skin-off-or-skin-on issue before responding to this. I make that request because, even though I will distill down my questions for you (see below), your kind efforts in responding might otherwise miss the mark.

Here is a quote from USDA's "Home Canning, Guide 1, Principles of Home Canning: Ensuring safe canned foods" (page 1-6) --
------
"Botulinum spores are on most fresh food surfaces. Because they grow only in the absence of air, they are harmless on fresh foods."

"Most bacteria, yeasts, and molds are difficult to remove from food surfaces. Washing fresh food reduces their numbers only slightly. Peeling root crops, underground stem crops, and tomatoes reduces their numbers greatly. Blanching also helps, but the vital controls are the method of canning and making sure the recommended research-based process times, found in these guides, are used."

"The processing times in these guides ensure destruction of the largest expected number of heat-resistant microorganisms in home-canned foods. Properly sterilized canned food will be free of spoilage if lids seal and jars are stored below 95°F. Storing jars at 50° to 70°F enhances retention of quality."

------

I am not challenging USDA's assertion that peeling root crops (e.g., potatoes) substantially reduces the number of botulinum spores. I have no evidence to confirm or refute that assertion and am willing to accept it as factual. I am primarily interested in the answers to three questions:

1) Have USDA test results (or any credible test results) shown that, by following USDA canning guidelines (re: said potatoes), the "destruction of the largest expected number of heat-resistant microorganisms" is ensured regardless of whether potato skins have or have not been removed? They refer to 'research-based process times' but, in their publications, do not offer the public any way to access that research.

2) Irrespective of the answer to the above question, if one should handle the uncanning of all low-acid foods as if the contents are contaminated with botulinum toxins and, thus, follow the prescribed post-canning cooking guidelines in order to kill any toxins that might be present, then isn't the skin-on versus skin-off issue moot?

It appears to me that some of USDA's low-acid pressure-canning guidelines (i.e., the one recommending that potato skins be removed) are precautions taken out of a fear that the home cook will not properly follow the post-canning cooking guidelines. If I am correct about this, then I find it somewhat offensive that the USDA has chosen to treat the citizenry in such a manner without revealing this tact (i.e., it is not only treating the public like children, it chooses not to expose that it is doing so).

3) In a time when transparency is sought in all facets of food sourcing, content and preparation, shouldn't the ambiguity and the inconsistency addressed in the above questions, be brought to USDA's attention? Should they not bring clarity to same in their applicable publications?

Thank you for your kind attention to my questions. I believe all of the participants in the Garden Web's forum about the pressure canning of potatoes will be interest in, and will undoubtedly benefit from, your response. I know I will.

Tom Brendt

I sure am glad the original poster didn't elect to receive emails on this question of all this would be flooding into their email box.

It sure looks like the issue isn't going to retire anytime soon since Tom is basically calling for an over-haul of the entire system while impuning their methods and reasoning in the process. All this apparently just to get the USDA stamp of approval for leaving the peel on his potatoes. As we have said all along that is your choice Tom so why not just do it - unless you too have doubts about its safety.

So, moving on - Jill: while technically no, your potatoes were not "properly processed" because what is called siphoning happened. You can read all about siphoning at NCHFP. This loss of liquid is caused by the sudden changes in internal pressure when a) the heat is adjusted too much during the processing and/or b) the weight got removed a bit too early, and/or the jars were still too active when removed, etc. Preventing that from happening are all tricks one learns with experience and that is part of the process. ;)

However, for all practical purposes you did just fine and you did great for someone new to canning!! As long as your jars remain sealed the potatoes are probably safe. You will be able to insure that safety by the additional cooking you will be doing to them prior to serving. The ones sitting above the water may turn dark but you can just toss them when you open the jar.

For future reference: avoid the possibility of over-packing, come up to pressure a little more slowly with a little less heat than you probably did and don't adjust the heat source so much during processing even if the pressure is a little too high (higher pressure by a couple of pounds isn't going to hurt anything), if you do have to adjust it do it in very tiny increments, wait the full 10 mins. on the weight and you can even wait 20 if you have the time), once the lid is removed let the jars sit in the canner another few minutes until most of the bubbling has stopped and then remove them taking care not to tip them.

Hope this helps.

Dave

Dave, your advice helps immensely! I wasn't sure whether to open them all and have a potato party tonight, or be comfortable with what I had done! Even though I'd read all the old potato threads and looked at the NCHFP info and was pretty sure what I'd done, there was still that little doubt about safety.

As for siphoning, I wasn't sure I actually had siphoning or if I had left air pockets. If siphoning had occurred, wouldn't the water left in the canner look cloudy from the potato water? The water was clear. I understand that the top potatoes out of the water might turn dark, and I won't worry about that.

I'm an old dog trying to learn a new trick! Canning is hard mental work, but I'm determined to do it right. We have a large garden and I'm trying to get the right habits/patterns established while the harvests are still small. If I practice enough with small quantities, it will make the process easier when a whole bunch of stuff ripens at once!

BTW...peeling potatoes is not that big of a chore. I bought a $20 hand crank Norpro apple peeler that clamps to the table. It isn't ideal for the new potatoes we grew, but I just cranked them out. For the odd shaped ones that didn't peel evenly, I just turned the potato 90 degrees and cranked it through again. I dropped the peeled potato in the tub of water/ascorbic acid and when finished, I used a hand peeler to finish off what the crank peeler didn't get. That was so easy. That peeler was worth the $20. I think there are better ones out there, but it was the only one I found locally.

I really do like the advice here, and I appreciate the fact that safety is stressed. For those of us new to canning, it is easy to look on the internet and assume a recipe is safe. I was glad to find the imformation about NCHFP and USDA guidelines. I'm trying to eat healthier by gardening and canning our own produce, so I certainly don't want to compromise my family's safety by taking shortcuts.

Regarding botulism, it was mentioned that cases of botulism have dropped significantly over the years. I have no knowledge of the numbers, but common sense tells me that a decrease in home canning would result in a decrease in botulism cases. Over the years, people stopped gardening/canning and started buying everything in the stores. Today, with the resurgence in self-sufficiency, and concerns over the economy, home gardening has increased and people are canning again. I'm proof of that. So, it stands to reason that an increase in botulism cases could occur if people don't follow safety standards that are tested to be safe. It's not worth the risk to me not follow the USDA/NCHFP recipes and guidelines.

Dave,

I don't see how this forum benefits from acrimony and derision. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of something... something that directly relates to this forum.

I believe I have made a major contribution in that regard. I hope the outcome of my efforts will benefit others here, maybe even you.

If you see no merit in that, well, I guess I can't stop you from continuing to ridicule me, even if that behavior perplexes me. Maybe you don't like my confrontational style or that I held some feet to the fire in my efforts. I don't see anyone else complaining. Apparently they can stand the heat in the kitchen.

You, on the other hand, are being hostile towards me without any apparent goal (just to lash out? angry at something else but aiming it at me?).

Can we get past whatever it is that irritates you about me and move forward without further harshness? If not, maybe you can tell me what you would like for me to do to quell the hostility I'm getting from you.

Why don't you email me off-forum so that others here are not further subjected to this? I would have done so if I had an email addy for you.

Tom (tfbva@aol.com)

I have no reluctance to public discussion of my problems with your posts Tom. They are inappropriate for this forum.

They are indeed confrontational, preachy diatribes on what is to most of us a relatively minor issue easily resolved by saying "it is your choice to follow the guidelines or not as it is your risk to take".

Yet it is apparently your personal cause. You seem determined to prove us wrong and yourself right, to lead us to the light so to speak while nit picking any explanations offered you, and in the process make NCHFP toe that line of public accountability.

Unfortunately most of us have no interest in becoming a saved battalion of unpeeled potato canners. Those who prefer to peel, do. Those who prefer to not peel, don't. It really is that simple. So take it up with the folks that are in a position to do something about it or who can explain, though I doubt to your satisfaction, why the guidelines needs to remain as is.

Now you imply you are doing all this for our benefit and we should be grateful. So for "our good" you revived a year old thread and loosed the hounds. Yet no one here has indicated any desire to even encourage your crusade much less join in it. Lowly uninformed peons that you imply we are, we seek no conversion to your methodology, nor do we wish to be preached to. We are relatively content for the most part to follow the proven guidelines as they exist, adjust them accordingly as we see fit to meet our own needs and level of education and experience, trust in the research that has been done, and hope for more in the future. So you are doing us no favors. You are just beating a dead horse.

Dave

Dave,

You are entitled to your opinion although I do not know how you presume to speak for everyone else. Apparently you believe EVERYONE else in this forum is with you and against me. And you don't think that is divisive? Please tell me how I might also poll everyone's opinion... for my future reference.

You made some valid points and I will mull over your criticisms. I must admit that I seldom receive such an eloquently written disapproval. Your use of language is enjoyable and, no doubt, indicative of a superior intellect. But even if I were to concede every point you made (which I do not), I cannot agree that the issue I am pursuing is without merit. Apparently you believe there is nothing about my posts that have any value and that everything I wrote was completely worthless, as am I. No gray area for you.

Are you not concerned that you may have projected some of your own less-favorable qualities onto me? Does it not concern you that I, a seriously-flawed individual, have managed to push your emotional buttons? Do you not recognize that you have unleashed a diatribe upon me that far exceeds anything, thus so, which I posted? If you believe my posts "are inappropriate for this forum" how can you believe your diatribe is? Who is really the sanctimonious one here?

Now that you have given me a public comeuppance, should I expect to continue to be the brunt of your ridicule every time I post something that does not meet with your approval? Must you, in your shining armor, ride in to protect the other subjects (within thy realm) with your self-righteousness dictums every time you believe someone has done them wrong?

Do you not have any tolerance for those you have chosen to disdain? If so, then I beg of you, your eminence, please free me from your ire, lest I wither into a mere shadow of me former self, left to live me life as a wretched, tattered, babbling moron.

Tom (your tremblin' subject)

Canned potatoes conjure childhood memories of a European vacation, where we had way too many canned potatoes to eat. We did not like them at first, or in the middle, or latter, but they happened daily. I was experiencing growth spurts and I was hungry, so I ate them, but I sure wish I had something else to eat. This became a food joke for our family later on, just the mention of canned potatoes brings those awful memories.....along with a lot of jokes and laughter....and relief that we are adults now, so we never have to eat a canned potato again! So my question is, why would anyone ever want to can a potato? (Shudder).

Oh, Cabrita,
I am sorry you had to endure the canned potatoes. Really, I disliked them, too, until I started canning mine by adding Pickle Crisp to them. They do that in the commercial ones. So, decided to try it. Worked well with red and yellow potatoes. I just hide them in stew or in chicken pot pie, etc. I canned them since they were free and made a good experiment for me with the Pickle Crisp.
I sure would not want to eat them daily, though. Having them already cooked and canned to add to things is a good time saver for me.

should I expect to continue to be the brunt of your ridicule every time I post something

Not at all. New members are always welcomed here to discuss the fun of canning and other forms of home food preservation. We've had many great discussions here over the years as a review of the forum archive will show.

And when they treat others here with respect they are treated likewise. When they don't, replies in kind are likely to follow.

In other words, it is the tone of the discussion opening that often determines what follows.

Dave

Dave, you posted this and I would like to add something afterward... :
"And when they treat others here with respect they are treated likewise. When they don't, replies in kind are likely to follow.

In other words, it is the tone of the discussion opening that often determines what follows. "

What I want to add is that not only will that happen, if there are rude and demeaning posts, those offenders are usually reported and often banned. It has happened before. They used to say the person was "going to Disneyland".
Please, let's all try to be kind. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

To Jill.
Jill, I think your potatoes will be fine other than some darkening of the top ones. Normally siphoning does occur as was said, too quick of the temperature fluctuation. That is also part of the reason of the extra 10 min. wait after the pressure is down and before you remove the lid when pressure canning.
You will be fine. I am glad you are learning how to can.
Let us know what else you can and how it went.

Oh, so now we are all going to behave in a civilized manner. If I wanted to be subject to this much hypocrisy I'd start going back to church.

It's obvious that the pursuit of truths concerning potato canning is secondary here. What's more important is that participants bow to the queen and avoid questioning anything has has to say or out comes her pit bull.

Okay, you win. I'm gone.

Tom

What a relief. Though I'd be interested in the responses Tom gets to his queries and I wish he'd seek out more details with the European methods and standards as I often wonder about similar issues.

Bowing to the queen, throwing a kiss to the pit bull, and laughing with the knave, I remain a food safety and preservation course graduate and thereby,

The Educated Peon

I am rather doubting he gets a reply from them. I have already stated the safe information. There isn't much more they can add that I am aware of.
No way are they going to publish findings on each food that has been tested. Can you imagine all the information that would have to be gathered and published some how ?
They just report the findings usually in the form of the USDA guidelines. There are some supplement things, such as the so called "canning of butter" "canned cake and breads",and mashed pumpkin and pumpkin butter.
I did not see any "hipocrisy" he was speaking of. Who was saying anything like that ? He didn't seem to like the truth of potato canning. He can do his own searching if he doesn't like what we found for him.
Why does someone really care if they peel the potatoes or not ? I just don't get it. People get so bent out of shape over the most trivial things in life. Things like cheese in a jar, canned pickled eggs. Sheeesh, why are things so important that they feel they MUST be in a jar on the shelf, regardless of safety ?
Seattle Suze, I am proud of you for being educated in food preservation safety !

Spoken like the queen you are!

SeattleSuze,
You are so funny and sweet ! Are you preserving anything ?
I hope you are having a lovely weekend. Me, I am working.
There are potatoes I do need to do something with. Maybe I will make a big pot of mashed potatoes and freeze them. It was much cheaper to by a 15 lb. bag than by the pound. Why do I do this to myself ? LOL. Maybe because I want to eat later on, too, and not just today.

regarding tom: not that i want to see that heated exchange revived, but having worked in a medical research lab for 30 years, i do hope tom gets the information he seeks. research is published in peer review journals for all to see. not that the usda should do that, but certainly test data should be saved and perhaps an abstract could be written up, copied (and charged for) just like other government publications. then there's the freedom of information act, tom.
i'd be disappointed if the usda cloaks its methods and results behind any "no time,no money" excuse.
i trust and follow NCHFP guidelines, but i too would like to see the data behind them. why not ? the more informed i am, the better.
now i'm heading for cover, just in case.....

Linda lou, You are completely wrong. Potato skin does not harbor anything. I have been canning potatoes for 50 years and I an still alive. I get so tired of all these "Experts" that do not know waht they are talking about!!

Why did up an old thread to rant and post a personal attack?

Desertfox your choices are yours to make but your post above serves no useful purpose. Can your potatoes any way you wish as long as your understand that it isn't the approved method.

Linda Lou didn't "make-up" the information. It is well documented by the USDA/FDA canning guidelines.

Just because someone disagrees with your methods does not make them wrong. It doesn't mean they don't know what they are talking about. Nor does the fact that you are still alive prove that your methods are safe.

Dave

Clostridium botulinum is a soil-borne bacteria, which can cause botulism. Botulism is rare. If potatoes are correctly pressure-canned, all microorganisms will be killed. One of the major reasons for pressure-canning is to kill Clostridium botulinum. Don't worry. Potatoes may be canned with peels on. Just do it correctly.

Sorry if this is the wrong thread, this is my first time to post here ;) I have some small red potatoes we got from a friends garden about a month ago. They were washed & stored in open ziploc bags in our (dark, cool) pantry since. I do not see any mold or soft spots. Would it still be safe to can them or should I only do it when they are very fresh? Thanks for any advice :)

I am reluctant to can potatoes with the peel on due to the risk of botulism spores being left and producing botulism toxin once in the anaerobic environment of a vacuum sealed can. However, isn't that why we pressure can low-acid foods - to kill botulism spores??? Also, if a can is contaminated with botulism, cooking it after opening it does nothing. Yes, it will kill the botulinum bacteria, but the deadly toxin that the bacteria produce while in the sealed can cannot be killed or inactivated.

correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought the botulinum toxin, as well as bacteria, was destroyed by heat. isn't that the basis for the old rule of boiling all canned goods for 20 (?) minutes, just in case ?

"I am reluctant to can potatoes with the peel on due to the risk of botulism spores being left and producing botulism toxin once in the anaerobic environment of a vacuum sealed can."

Which is why the guidelines/instructions call for peeling them first. Canning with peels included is NOT recommended.

"Also, if a can is contaminated with botulism, cooking it after opening it does nothing. Yes, it will kill the botulinum bacteria, but the deadly toxin that the bacteria produce while in the sealed can cannot be killed or inactivated."

Cooking after opening destroys the toxins, not the bacterial spores. In home canning the spores can only be killed by high heat and pressure combined. Commercially they can be irradiated.

The spores themselves pose no direct threat and are around us all the time. But when they get sealed in an anaerobic environment they can continue to replicate and produce toxins. It is the cooking after opening to neutralize the toxins they create as they reproduce that would make contaminated food safe to consume IF one was so inclined to eat known contaminated food (also NOT recommended).

By peeling and then pressure canning potatoes you eliminate both concerns.

Dave

Ah yes, the old "I've done it for 50 years and I'm not dead yet" argument.

Of course, cars didn't all have seat belts 50 years ago, we didn't put our babies in car seats, children didn't get vaccinated against polio until a vaccine was produced in 1954 and used in the 60s. The tobacco companies were telling us that cigarettes were healthy. I rode all the way to Canada in the back of a pick-up more than once to visit my Grandmother when I was a kid in the 60s, and the first knee replacement wasn't done until 1968. Now my husband had a knee replaced, my vehicles all have seatbelts and my grandkids have car seats, polio is nearly eradicated and we know about the danger cigarettes pose to our health. We could get rid of all those things and that information, though, and say that we've lived without them, so they are unnecessary. I just don't want to.

I want the newest and best information, and then I want to decide the level of risk involved and the level of risk I am comfortable taking, and take an informed course of action from there.

Yes, I've taken the classes offered by my local extension service. Yes, I've taken the online courses as a follow up, because recommendations change and I want to stay current. Then I decide how I'm going to proceed.

Everyone should take any risk they want, but they should at least be informed of the risks, so they can make a decision based on reality and science and current testing instead of practices that are 50 years old.

Annie

As a nurse, I hear a similar worry/expectation. People want it written in stone how a procedure will go or how a med will do for them as far as side effects. Nobody can predict that. No reputable health professional will "promise" this. Nobody, not even a doctor, can predict how your body will react to anything, nor can our experts here predict what untested recipes are safe. Things are so random, and some people want it completely black and white.

My canning jars go into other foods, most that I feed my family and I would never take a chance on them. My little grandchildren, I like to know that everything is as safe as I know how to do. Peels on potatoes aren't that important to me, LOL, compared to their health.

Thank-you to our resources here, Carol, Linda, Dave, and many others. I appreciate when you disappoint me by saying something wasn't safe rather than saying it "probably is good" and has been done for that 50 yrs.

Linda_Lou I saw in your post that you used Pickle Crisp in canning potatoes. I bought a bag of potatoes to can this week, am canning them into pints, how much Pickle Crisp should I add to a pint please?