"I could go back to both installers and do the 'can you do any better' routine? They are so close in price..."

- I would definitely play the 2 against each other. It would be great if you got the 10 year parts and labor warranty thrown in for free, saving you $600. About half of your $10k price is labor and mark-up on equipment (profit) so there is wiggle room in your pricing.

The bottom line is that you have to be satisfied with the installer, equipment, and price.

If I went with Trane (I would take the cheaper Goodman route), but if I did go with Trane, I would go with the 14i (and no more). Let's not forget you are only cooling 1,200 square feet. Would your electric bill really be less with the 16i versus the 14i (I, of course am skeptical)? It seems you are looking for only responses that support your leanings toward the 16i. True? No doubt your contractor will steer you toward what will make him more $. I have come to the conclusion you must determine your own specific needs in equipment, then find a contractor who will do exactly what you want. This approach will avoid steering anything...

As far as warranty, simply refer to my concerns posted previously... The individual contractor's portion of any warranty is worthless if he is out of business. Agreed, good catch garyg.

No - I am not only looking for responses supporting the 16i. I am planning on expanding my house by building up (second floor) and out (expanding the kitchen) within the next 4-5 years. So, I am trying to plan for capacity and not find myself stuck a few years from now with a system that is too small or inefficient-- or too big for the present.

My thought is that the prices seem to be not a huge difference (ie: $2500 - 3k) in price with the 14i vs the 16i. The HD installer price for 15i was $9640 and 16i was $10350. To me, the difference in price being about $1500 makes me think, why not buy the 16i?

On paper anyway, it seems like a better system. How do I know distinctly if it is? I have spent a lot of time out here reading posts and looking for specifics and it seems it comes down more to personal preference and budget than science. I want the science. I want to know - yes - the 16i is better because of xyz...But, I have not found that answer yet. The same goes with the 14i.

I do plan on asking both companies for the 14i quote as well in order to compare.

I am certainly much more educated now than when I began thanks to all of you and your help out here.

"Would your electric bill really be less with the 16i versus the 14i?"

- It would probably not be cheaper, based on EER of the 2 systems. With the dual stage compressor in the Florida summer heat, the system would be runnning on the 2nd stage most of the time anyway.

"It seems you are looking for only responses that support your leanings toward the 16i"

- I also see that, but she has to be happy with her selection. I went with a 14 SEER Goodman and I'm very happy (spent $3700 total and I'm saving 40% on the electric bill). I stated several times in this posting that 14 SEER offers the best combo of purchase price and true operating costs. I would take the $1300 price difference between the 2 systems and bank it.

just for your reference, when you add on in 4-5 years neither system will work unless they are sized for it NOW. this mean BTU capacity, NOT SEER/EER. if you oversize now, you will not be comfortable due to lack of humidity removal.

get the system you like best, but size it for what you have now. in 4-5 years, add in a 2nd system to handle the expansion areas.

Well, I just called installer #3 to get a quote on the 14i. The main difference she said between the two units (14i and 14) is the top. The top on the 14i is a special anti-debris design which adds $$$ to the cost. Where it would sit by my house, the leaf debris is not an issue which is why she quoted the plain 14. I told her that my research indicates that the 14i is a more efficient unit (thanks to your info Garyg).
Also, I did mention that their quote is higher than the other quote from HD. I asked if they would toss in the extended warranty for free -- I was shot down! ;) The response was..."Uh - no. But, we may be able to throw in some filters." Gee...thanks.

I'm not done. I'll start pushing on the sales rep once I decide on a unit.

Wow...$3700. I wish that's what I was looking at spending! I guess I am looking at this from the stance of "I'm already spending $10k...$10,350 isn't much more for a more powerful system?"

I don't know. I'm not saying my view is "right"...you're points are valid as well. Maybe I should just scrap the whole $10k plan and go with the inexpensive version? There's a lot to think about.

Honestly, I just want to wake up tomorrow and have my a/c installed and working. I am so sick of thinking about it and talking to installers and trying to become an expert on HVAC systems in a month in order to make a informed decision. It's a lot of work....I know it will be worth it in the end...but, this prep work is time consuming.

My head hurts

Post the model numbers of the condenser and air handler and I'll check 'em.

"$10,350 isn't much more for a more powerful system?"
- As D&K states above, you are confusing SEER with cooling capacity (tons or btu's). A higher SEER system isn't larger and doesn't cool better or faster.

"I want the science. I want to know - yes - the 16i is better because of xyz...But, I have not found that answer yet. The same goes with the 14i."

- I am a mechanical engineer - I love science. The science is that the 16i has a dual stage compressor, the 19i has 2 compressors, the 14 has one compressor. Is one set-up better than the other? Maybe for some houses in some environments, one set-up is better than the other. This is a vague, non-scientific answer, but it is true. There is no formula for system SEER that says if you have this type of house in this State, you need "X". There is indeed a formula for cooling capacity (3 tons in your case) but none for system SEER or type. Most central air conditioners and heat pumps manufactured and in use today use 1 single stage compressor because that's all they need. That's why I asked how well your old unit worked many threads ago. KISS = Keep It Simple.

"It's a lot of work"
- You are doing a great job. Don't get discouraged. This thread is 48 posts and still going. Most people who ask for advice never reply back. Note that all of the responses are from homeowners and there are no replies from HVAC pros.

I agree with garyg. Capacity is about the # of tons (from 1 to 5) for standard residential systems, and not SEER. 3 tons of any brand with any SEER should be more than enough to cool 1,200 square feet (beware, the pros will say this is oversized). Saintpfla, don't let my blunt/critical/skeptical nature discourage you. You are doing exactly what you should be doing, and doing it pretty well. Most people simply refuse to do the kind of research you are doing. It seems to me that (while unsightly) your window units are cooling OK for now. There really seems to be no true hurry to get this done. If you take a breath, take your time, you will save $ and get the right system. I agree that it would be nice to wake up tomorrow and have the perfect system... That kind of thinking, however, is what causes consumers to overpay for this kind of work (I have done it more times than I like to admit).

Good observation, garyg; I wonder why the HVAC pros have not jumped into this one?

Saint P:

A brief explanation of Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio (SEER) and Energy Efficiency Ratio (EER):

EER = system heat removal (btus) / compressor power draw(watts). A 36,000 (3 ton) system that draws 3000 watts is a 12 EER. EER is measured at 95 degrees outside air temperature and 75 degree inside air temperature. These are realistic summertime conditions (a little low for Florida but realistic none-the-less).

SEER = EER x fudge factor and it is measured at 82 degrees outside air temp and 80 degrees inside air temp. What do you think happens to a high SEER number at more realistic Florida summertime outside air temps? The SEER number drops like a rock. This is why I say that EER is the true measure of efficiency and operating costs.

Additionally, manufacturers can change some things and play games to produce SEER numbers like 16, 19, and 21:
- They can lower the cooling capacity. 3 ton systems (36,000 btus) are not really 3 tons. Maybe they are 34,000 or 32,000 btu's.
- They can slow up the fan in the air handler, thus the variable speed fan in most systems now.
- They can use 2-stage compressors or dual compressors.
- They can change refrigerant to 410A instead of R22.

Just some more info.

Hmmm...yeah...I wonder why HVAC pros aren't jumping in as well? Maybe it's because you all have been so thorough in your answers that they haven't had to? Or, because much of this concerns price issues?

Honestly, I am hoping this lengthy thread is able to help others through their decisions as well. I for one have found all of your responses invaluable.

To me, this is a major purchase (and unplanned) so I take it very seriously. My goals are to buy the best system for now that will carry me into the future. So, if in 12years, something breaks on this, I only have to pay to replace "x" not go through this shop for an entire new system. Again, my old, dead Rheem was piece-mealed together-- and while it worked - my monthly bills have not been cheap. I've had heating bills in the winter close to the $400 mark.

SEER does matter to me because my Rheem was an 8 SEER. I want a high SEER system so it's not 'obsolete' in 10+years time.

Obviously, based on this, I think NOT going the R22 route (due to the freon phase out) is the smart thing to do. So, I need to focus on R-410a systems which does limit my options.

I think I have been confusing SEER with cooling capacity. I need to remind myself it's for efficientcy -- not capacity. I do know this, but seem to forget it.

I do think a 3-ton system is what I should get and according to the J-calc, that confirmed my thoughts.

But...see...there should be a formula for this! :)
"There is no formula for system SEER that says if you have this type of house in this State, you need "X"."

...it's almost like...why have so many options if they really do not matter!

So...do you know if the two-stage compressor advantages are real (ie: the 16i)? I mean, if there are no true advantages to it and it's mostly sales hype, then I don't need it. I can't find any info --other than from Trane - supporting this. I mean, when you read the brochure, it 'sounds great', believable, plausable. I want to hear from someone who purchased it -- after having a single stage - as to why it is so much better...or not.

The other item, Trane's rebates are pretty good on the 16i -- not so much on the 14i-- I think it's $75.

eths: yes - the window units were totally worth the purchase. My monthly bill is high but, the window units are buying me the research time I need. I am thinking I will donate them to some charity somewhere when I get the system installed as I will no longer need them. You need a/c in Florida.

As soon as I get the quote (haven't received it yet), I will post the model #s.

Thank you again for all of your advice and help.

"SEER does matter to me because my Rheem was an 8 SEER. I want a high SEER system so it's not 'obsolete' in 10+years time."

- I went from a 21 year-old, 7 SEER heat pump to a new 14 SEER unit and I have reduced my electricity consumption by about 40%. In 10 years, the current technology may be obsolete as systems that use the new inverter technology for compressors will be commonplace in the market.

"Obviously, based on this, I think NOT going the R22 route (due to the freon phase out) is the smart thing to do."

- You may be making too much of this R22/R410A. R22 will be around for many years long after its production is ceased in this country. It may be more expensive, but it will still be around. There are too many systems in use today (and still being produced) that use R22 for it to just go away.

Hi Garyg -

I get your point on the R410a and R22 issue. However, with the upcoming election, we don't know if whoever is elected will make some sweeping change which impacts the future use of R22. I don't want to be spending $600 to add freon to my a/c. I'm being fascitiouus, of course, but that status of freon does factor in to my decision. I don't feel very comfortable investing into a system which will begin to be phased out in 3 years.

I should have my 14i quote today. Also, I'm going to do more research on the 2-stage compressor issue.

While I would go with the least expensive equipment, I understand your concern about the R22 versus R410A (and I agree somewhat). Long-term, the R410A may make a little more sense. Personally, I am willing to take the R22 risk to save $ now, however. It will be interesting to hear back about the latest 14i quote. Remember, I am in SW FL (probably @100 miles to your south), and even getting a quote this time of year is work. My recent experience is with a contractor who seemed the most thorough, and seemed willing to do what I wanted (rare, in my experience). I was to have a quote within "a few days". Never heard from him again. I think I asked too many questions (he may have realized I have educated myself on this forum)...

By the way, do your quotes specify (by line item) how much $ for the new ducts? Is this a complete replacement of all old ductwork? How many supply registers? How many returns (and where are they to be located)? You probably need at least 2 returns minimum, and ideally one in a common living area and one in each bedroom. Are the new ducts going to be plastic flex (I assume so)? What is the R-value for the new ducts (R-4 or R-6 or R-8)? I am obviously no pro, but R-8 is ideal while R-6 will suffice. R-4 has insufficient insulation for FL heat. How much $ for the actual equipment? How much $ for labor? Not popular questions to ask the contractor...

Eths -

I didn't realize we were neighbors! That's great...so you are familiar with our unique cooling challenges.

The reason I was provided was that there is no tax on the bottom-line - if labor and materials is broken out, it's considered a taxable event.

I actually do like this installer. A young lady, very patient, not the hard-sell/used car salesman approach. Her follow up is excellent.

The duct work provided is R-6. I did ask for a quote on the R8. Apparently, it's supposed to be a $300 price difference?

HVAC contractors never break up the parts and labor in their quote, no matter which State. There is a 300% mark-up on equipment from their wholesale distributer, and they pay different prices based on their sales volume.

garyg,
Got it. A rough breakdown would be nice, but if you educate yourself, you will know what is reasonable...

saintpfla,
You did not post if this is a complete reducting job (all new flex duct) or how many return registers and where to be located...

Eths:

That post was for Saint P.

Change subjects. FYI: Goodman has just come out with a new "energy saving" 5-speed motor in a new air handler: Model# ASPF. The product specs for the GSH 14 SEER heat pump rate the heat pump at 15 SEER, 13 EER, with this new air handler. Not sure of the price versus the 3-speed ARUF air handler.

Info for your future purchase.

Take care.

Yes - this is for a complete reducting (all new flex) and there are 7 vents and one return (the return is the large vent thing that the airfilter goes into, right?). I am getting new vents too and new boots.

I know...my house is small...I only have 7 vents. But, I'm one person and a couple of cats so...I don't need a 4000 sq. ft. house.

My current system problem is - low R duct work (it's not even an R4-- I was told 'maybe' a 2), the duct work lays on the floor of the attic and it is full of sawdust due to it running when they sanded the floors (prior to my closing on the house). So, my house overall is ALWAYS dusty. It's ridiculous how much dust I have.

Also, the return (eye roll)...the prior installer cut a hole in the ceiling over a truss. Soooo...you cannot add an air filter effectively because the truss is in the way--not to mention even closing the vent is difficult. Real quality work here...(shaking my head...). So the new installer will be cutting a new hole to correct this problem, then I have to have someone fix the old hole.

I was told an estimated cost for R8 duct work would be about $300. Since Florida code is for R6 -- apparently, that is the standard, do you feel it's worth the extra money to use R8?

Apparently, other states (on the west coast and some northern states) require R8 as the code standard. Florida is going to move to that as well -- but for today, it is R6. I'm thinking maybe it's worth the extra bucks...what are your thoughts?

Spending a little extra $$ on improved insulation is always a good choice. It is a one-time cost that usually has payback over the lifetime of the house or as long as you live in it.

Agreed that R-8 is preferable and worth the extra $300. Sorry to be so skeptical, but make sure they actually use R-8 if you pay for it. It could be an easy oversight to install what is more common (R-6 even though you paid for R-8)...

personally i would ask to be quoted for rigid, NOT flex, duct. if you can afford it, go that route. rigid, when layed out properly, will move the air more efficiently than flex. flex always has a bunch of twists and turns in it, and each one restricts air flow.

my new system they used flex to tie in the 2 return lines. i could move them around and actually feel and hear the difference in air flow. i simply took the old return ducts and replaced the flex and now every thing works much better. flex has it's uses, but i do not like it for primary ducting.

heck, it might even be better to clean your existing ducts and just add on a couple new ones.

Conceptually, I agree with davidandkasie about avoiding flex duct. Ideally, sheet metal is the best. Some have concerns about the fiberglass-based duct board dispersing fiberglass particles in the air, while others have concerns that mold growth is more likely with flex or duct board. Some of those concerns may be valid.

The bottom line seems to be that while metal ducts are by far superior regarding air flow, likelihood of dust build-up, mold growth, cleaning, static pressure handling, leakage, longevity..., it is simply cost prohibitive and not practical (more cumbersome) to install in existing construction. It seems it can be done (most anything can), but you will pay a huge price for it. I believe that is why flex use is so prevalent today... I have read that the flex of today is far superior (and has a longer expected life/is more durable) to the flex of 10-20 years ago (but I am obviously no pro). We're back to comparing an ideal/perfect AC situation that can be controlled in the new construction process versus the real-world situation of managing the old/existing structure (and settling with what is most reasonable and cost-effective)...

I agree. My budget only goes so far..... ;)

The upgrade to R8 is actually very affordable though. It's only $150 more--not $300 like first predicted. This is great news.

They have to special order it...it takes two weeks to come out...blah blah blah. But, I do think the pay off will be worth it.

Funny thing -- this week is the last week of summer and the temps have dropped significantly. I have shut off my window unit all day in fact and only ran them a bit during the night. I probably won't be able to see any major performance benies from my new system until next year. Oh well, hot temps in FLA will be here before you know it.

So...now comes decision time. I need to figure out what to get. It's obvious on the quotes I have received that both Trane and the installer design the price to steer you to the 16i.

The cost for the XL14i system was $9215.00.

The cost for the Clean Effects filter is $700.00

The cost for the Perfect Fit 5" pleated filter is $300.00

So the difference between the 14i and 16i is $1104.

The 16i is $10319
+ $150 for R8
+ either $700 or $300 for any of the clean air filter stuff

I have to decide if the filter aspect is "worth it". My mother has severe allergies (she can only spend 30min. in my house (which is both a blessing and a curse...ha ha ha...kidding!).

I also have to decide if the difference in SEER and the dual stage vs single stage compressor is worth cash for my situation.

I do want a higher SEER as I plan on keeping this system forever. In other words, anything that breaks in the future, will be replaced -- not the whole system like I had to do this time.

So, those are my decisions that I need to make.

"In other words, anything that breaks in the future, will be replaced -- not the whole system like I had to do this time."

- This will be true no matter what SEER system you get, from 13 SEER to 21.

You can probably lose the $300 5" filter and use a standard pleated filter for $3 that fits in the filter slot in the air handler.

There are other posts about "Clean Effects" - just search on it in this forum.

Do all of your prices include Trane rebates?

Does the 16i qualify for the Federal Tax Rebate of $300 (SEER >/= 15, EER >/= 13, HSPF >/= 9)? Does the 14i qualify? This is a rebate and not a credit. Rebate = $$ direct to you.

when matched with teh correct airhandler, the 14i qualifies for 350 in fed tax rebate. at least according to what i found on Trane.com.

"In other words, anything that breaks in the future, will be replaced -- not the whole system like I had to do this time."
- This will be true no matter what SEER system you get, from 13 SEER to 21.

i am sure that is exactly what people thought 15-20 years ago as well.

All of my prices do not include rebates and tax breaks. I actually like that they did it this way as it seems 'cheaper' when the dealers include the rebates in the final price. It can take months to get that rebate check...

The 16i also qualifies for an $800 rebate, the $350 fed rebate and my local power company is adding another $350 energy credit for switching to a heat pump.

The 14i also gets a $250 rebate from the local power company.

I hear what you guys are saying on the 'not replacing the whole system' thing. My objective is to ONLY replace the compressor or whatever breaks in the future. So, I'm expecting a $2-3k bill down the road rather than another $10k bill. Of course, I am factoring the aspect of the best laid plans of mice & men.... ;)

I do feel that by going with a higher SEER rate now will offset having a huge difference in SEER range 15years from now when they've decided that a 14 SEER is outdated and too inefficient. I can see them deciding that a 17 SEER is the baseline SEER point down the road.

You do have to wonder how much it really matters though? None of us has a crystal ball...

On the CleanEffects, the research I have read -- some rave about it -- others don't even notice a difference. Again, nothing concrete -- it all seems to be based on opinion.

On the dual stage compressor in the 16i, one of my fears with that system is that one day, it gets "stuck" in the first stage and never clicks up to the second stage at the hottest time of the summer. Am I correct in being concerned on this as a potential system issue?

It apparently does not show on your estimates, but the new ductwork represents about one-third of your $10,000 quote. I have a coworker (who lives in Sarasota) with an 1,800 square foot house who just received a quote on a 3.5 ton 15 SEER Carrier system with variable speed air handler (and Infinity Tstat controls). With some enlarging return/plenum work, including all rebates, the quote came in at @$6,000. I am no expert, but that seems reasonable (my coworker's quote) for that part of FL for that equipment for this time of year... Just a reminder that (at @$10,000+) you are paying $3,000 -$4,000 for the flex ductwork portion. Not being an expert, I do not know if that is reasonable, but seems high to me.

Yikes!!!!...

Even with my rebates, that only drops my total cost by about $1200.

Any suggestions in how to get them to adjust the price a bit? I'm sure they won't drop it by $2k...but...sheesh...something.

"Any suggestions in how to get them to adjust the price a bit?"

Lose the Clean Effects and 5" media filter. That'll save you another $1000.

Is the 'air filter' aspect somewhat 'hooey'? I was thinking that it may not be worth the money.

The installer has mentioned about throwing in the $300 Perfect Fit filter in with the quote. If so, does that mean I am committed to always having to buy a $300 filter down the road?

"...does that mean I am committed to always having to buy a $300 filter down the road?"

- The $300 is for the filter housing (and filter hopefully). The filter is probably about $50 and I think it's changed yearly but I'm not sure. It is a special filter ordered from an HVAC supply store or Trane. You won't get it at Home Depot. A 1" pleated filter is all you need. You can get a 3-pack of NaturalAire Standard MERV 8 Pleated Filters from Home Depot for $7.

How does the Clean Effects remove cat dander that is in the rugs, on the furniture, on the drapes, on your clothes? It doesn't. It only removes air-borne particles.

Save yourself $1000.


"All of my prices do not include rebates and tax breaks. I actually like that they did it this way..."

- That is not the way to look at it. What is the price of the 16i including all rebates from Trane, Federal Government, State Government, Local Government, Local Utility, Girl Scouts, Oprah Winfrey Club, Florida Beach Club, Citrus Growers Association, GardenWeb Forum, Gary G Helpline? The 14i including all rebates? The XR14 including all rebates?

Once you look at your bottom line cost, you can make a better informed decision.

I could not agree more with garyg. Save the $ on the advanced filtration. Go with the less expensive standard filters (or similar) he suggested.

Rebates/tax credits... only impress me if they actually prove to save me $. I think too often, buyers get caught up in the rebate sales ploy. Call it a rebate/end-of-season sale/tax credit/preferred customer sale..., bottom line out-of-pocket is the way to look at your purchase.

My point on the rebate issue is that it's a nice "perk", however, you are paying the whole price first -- then, 90 days later (or whatever) you will receive the rebate money. That's why I appreciate that they didn't try to sell me on "this is your price" with the rebate calculated in. It's rather misleading. Another installer quoted the bottomline price incorporating the rebate.

I think I will skip the clean effects piece. It's actually $700 from this installer, but I don't see that it's worth it.

From the price structure, the 16i is actually very closely priced to the 14i (incorporating the rebates). The 14i only has $75 rebate from Trane and $250 from power company and $350 from fed gov.

The 16i is $800 Trane, $350 power company and $350 fed gov.

I need to re-confirm the rebate info and then make a decision. I am strongly leaning towards the 16i however.

Saint P:

What are the model #s for the 14i condensing unit and air handler?

Saint P:

Where did you get your info that the 16i qualifies for the Federal Tax Rebate?

To qualify, the system must meet all 3 requirements: HSPF >/= 9, SEER >/= 16, EER >/=12. With the model #s you provided many threads ago (4TWX6036 and 4TEE3F37), the ARI website lists the 16i at 8.75 HSPF, 16 SEER, and 11.4 EER. This system may be Energy Star but it does not qualify for the Federal Tax Rebate.

Also, to qualify for a Trane rebate of $600, you need to buy the Comfort Control (whatever that is), and to qualify for $800, you need the Comfort Control plus Clean Effects.

I think you need to re-check your rebate info.

I have a SpringAire media filter on my system ($250 to $300 new) and the replacement filters are about $30 each . . . . and easy to find on eBay

I would size the system to fit your house as it is now - When you add on upstairs, add a mini-slpit heat pump upstairs for about $2500 (no ductwork needed) and let that give you a second zone so that you can heat and/or cool upstairs as you need it

Lots better solution to getting an oversized system now and paying extra to run it every day for the next 25 years

Don

GaryG: thanks for the info on the rebate! I am going to ask the installer to line-item all of that info out PLUS provide me with the model#s on the 14i. All she gave me was the quote for the 14i.

Don: that is definitely what I plan to do and seems to be the most cost effective plan as well.

What's really interesting is out of the three companies I spoke with, only this one has provided any kind of follow up. The HD installer has never even called or touched base with me since day one.

Great points (again) from garyg. The d***l is in the details. Expect the one contractor (who has actually followed-up) to not be eager to address garyg's model #/rebate requirement concerns. I think it is apparent that this is not the time of year to be expecting good follow-up, as all contractors in FL are swamped. I am waiting for the off-season to arrive...

When my coworker (with the @$6,000 Carrier quote) forced a more detailed "rebate" explanation, it turned out that half of the "rebate" was from the contractor. That "rebate" was really just the contractor showing a reduction/discount in his price on the quote, but not a true rebate... The true rebates were from the manufacturer (and will take months to receive once submitted).

Even though I lean toward what some pros would consider oversizing, I agree with don21 in your case. Size for what you are doing now (seems like 3 tons is plenty), then deal with the addition later.

don21,
Has your SpringAire media filter showed a noticeable improvement in filtration compared to the standard washable blue least expensive kind? I'm asking to file away your response for my future system...

I bought the SpringAire because we're in the middle of a 2 year renovation on an old house and we have all sorts of dust in the air and I didn't want it plugging up our new HVAC system

The media filter is mounted directly under the furnace and the return air comes into the compartment through a 24 by 24 inch opening on one wall and a 24 by 36 inch opening on an adjacent wall and I have 99 cent disposable filters in both of those openings which I change every 60 days or so - They get pretty filthy in that length of time

The media filter on the other hand is doing just fine. I check it every 3 months and though they advertise 12 to 18 months lifespan for the element, I was expecting to have to change it much more frequently (partly because of all the dust, partly because we have the air handler operating about 1/3rd of the time, irrespective of the need for heating or A/C) but the media filter is still relatively clean and looks like it may last the entire 18 months

I'm happy with it - It sure cleans the air. The 'prefilters' are probably a good idea as well, so long as you keep them clean

Don

Don: So, is the SpringAire a 'add on' product, per se? I have an old house too...they are basically dust factories. I dust and two days later have to dust again. That's why I was leaning towards the CleanEffects...but now, I am not so sure.

Eths:
Yes -- the details kill you on this stuff. It's been a month now of 'research'. I am so very happy that I bought my little window units....

I had thought that Sept/Oct was "off season" in Florida? To be honest, it's really disappointing to see so little follow through from companies. Very surprising.

Yes, you can pretty easily add a media filter to any furnace/heat pump - They sell sizes which match up pretty well to most units

I installed everything myself - 60K/90K gas furnace, 3.5 ton 14 SEER A/C, media filter and Honeywell Vision Pro thermostat along with all associated wiring and piping. Paid a pro to evacuate and charge it along with the necessary adjustments and I have about $4K in the entire install - Not much of that was ductwork though

Our 'dust factory' is slowly getting better as we make the house more and more airtight. We added $4K worth of high efficiency windows (installed them outselves) and all new entry doors (4 of them) along with 4 cases of caulk and we can now almost afford to live here - $125 to $135 electric bills so far this summer and that's for 2250 sq ft of house

Every inch of plumbing and electric wiring has also been replaced along with a brand new kitchen and bathroom. 4 rooms done, 1 under construction presently and 2 more to go downstairs . . . . and then we get to start on the apartment unstairs. One year down, one more to go . . . . we hope. Our home of 28 years was washed away in Katrina and we just got moved out of a FEMA trailer and into the not yet finished house this summer, so things are LOOKING UP!!

Don

if you have a lot of dust, also consider replacing any old carpeting you have. we had to dust the den every day when we had carpet. after putting in tile, we only have to dust it once every couple weeks. when we pulled it up, i filled a 5 gallon bucket with dust and dirt that was under the 30 year old carpet and pad.

D&K: I have all original 90 yr old heart of pine wood floors. It's a beautiful floor too. The prior owners tiled over the wood floor in the kitchen, though. One day, I will probably remove the tile to restore the floor.

Don21: I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of your home. Were you in N.O. or in Miss? Being in Fla. myself, I have quite a few friends from N.O. who were impacted or their family was impacted, as well.

It sounds like you are quite handy. I am still learning as I go. With this whole HVAC experience, I am considering changing out some of my old windows as well. There are quite a few that were added in the mid-50s (totally do not go with the house either...). Think southern wood bungalow with 1950's aluminum awning style windows. Ick.

One crisis at a time though....

So here are the final numbers and additional information on this quote:

XL14i $9215
-- $250.00 rebate for power company credit.

Model #s:
4TWX4036 - XL14i
4TEE3F37 - Variable Speed A/H

The XL16i : $10319
-- $800.00 Trane rebate; Trane originally was only offering the $800.00 if you bought the clean effects but changed it last month to any 16i system, even without clean effects.
-- $350.00 power company rebate

No rebate for the CleanEffects any more.

Extras are:

R8 - $150
the CleanEffects $700
PureAire $300

To me, I think if I can get them to come in under $10k, I will probably go with the 16i.

Saint P:

You sold yourself to the idea of the 16i many threads ago.

16i tech info:
11.4 Energy Efficiency Ratio (EER), 8.75 Heating Seasonal Performance Factor (HSPF), 34,400 btu/hour cooling capacity.

14i:
11.6 EER, 8.7 HSPF, 35,400 btu/hour cooling.

Neither system qualifies for the Federal Tax Rebate.

Don't forget the 10 year PARTS AND LABOR warranty.

Best to you.

Yes, you are correct, after reading (and reading...) I do like the 16i and the dual stage compressor feature. I also think with the price coming in (after rebates) so close to the price of the 14i, it's not a bad deal. Really, the only difference I can see with the 16i/14i is the single stage vs dual. Time will tell if this was the way to go, I suppose.

I did find out that there was no Fed Tax rebate. That stinks, but what can you do?

Garyg, Don21, eths, D&K -- your advice, opinions and information was extremely valuable to me. You were able to make sure I factored in items I would never have thought of or even known to ask (ie: the model#s, R6 vs R8...etc).

I truly want to thank you all and hope you realize I am so very appreciative to you for your help with this. Your input was invaluable.

Is there anything that I may have missed at this stage? I think I'm ready to start the 'price' negotiation dance and then set the install date.

"I did find out that there was no Fed Tax rebate. That stinks, but what can you do?"

- I am not sure why you were quoted the same air handler for the 16i as the 14i: 4TEE3F37. I went to the ARI (American Refrigeration Institute) website and typed in the model# of the 16i heat pump (4TWX6036). I found another air handler, Model# 4TEE3F40, that increases the rating and performance of the system to 17 SEER, 12.3 EER, 9.2 HSPF, and 36,800 btu/hour of cooling (2000 more btu than the first air handler). This system would qualify for the Federal Tax Rebate. I would contact your Trane guy and ask him to quote this air handler. The increase in price may be off-set by the $300 Rebate plus you will be getting the best air handler to go with the 16i.

GaryG: Wow! I can tell you are an engineer. You must be very good at your job as you are so thorough! Thanks again for finding this out. I will definitely do follow up with my Trane rep to question this and to get information on this model#. Maybe she made a typo?

I'm wondering what the price difference will be on this?

Bump.

Saintpfla, did you get your new system yet?

This thread was very useful to me. I am about to replace my AC system and am considering the Trane XL16i HP with the TEE air handler. I am in NE Georgia, near Atlanta, so our heat and humidity are not quite as bad as Florida, but stil... August was a killer here with many days above 100F. We topped at 107 which was just below the record of 108F. I am also leaning toward the higher SEER for the same reasons you mentioned, although up-front cost is an issue.

Let us know how you got on.

PS: If you love cats, maybe your local shelter could use the room ACs when you are done with them. Our shelter here does not have central heat or AC. When I volunteered there, I made it my mission to clean the filters on the room ACs - LOTS of cat dander and dust from the litter!

Congratulations St Petersburg!

Does a condo differ from a house when purchasing a CENTRAL AIR CONDITIONING UNIT?

Last Monday, after 20 years, my original central AC unit conked out. My condo is 1500 sq ft. Bummer!

But on the brighter side I found this great discussion group you started! I am much more knowledgeable than a few hours ago.

I would love to change out my ducts and add air handlers to the bedrooms. I wonder if it's possible in a condo? I never saw anyone getting there duct changed out. They seem to just change the AC unit in the condo and on the roof for about 2000 dollars.

I really am interested in getting the best bang for the buck but most important getting the system installed the right way the first time. I am into quality work.

As Floridians know "here today gone tomorrow, either the installer is no where to be found or the company is out of business.

Thanks for all the info,

Alex