Okay, got it. The current plan is turning out just fine, but it needs direction. Think heavy dark oak...

Wild
West
Saloon.

Yes, you need flappy saloon doors, probably between entry and kitchen hall, but I'll allow them elsewhere. Ached dark oak valance over the passthrough (gap B?). Turned wood (faux or half) columns on the dining room side of the cabinets. Wine glasses hanging. Silvered mirror backsplash on the range wall. Don't forget the foot rail, even if nobody sits there. Etc. The funny thing is, you think I'm joking!

I'm back with more! I have tried many of your options this morning...flappy saloon doors included, (What? You think I'm joking? LOL Fori ;0) but so far this is what I have.

I have cleaned up the wine party, saved all the bottles for Marcolo's porch, narrowed the mandatory wall back to 8", kicked the passed-out blondes over to Johnliu's house, increased the width of the appliance garage cabinet to match the mandatory wall, and added an arched valance. I tried to connect the towers in other ways as well, but it always came back to them being mismatched sizes. And, although they are both currently 27" wide, one is 8" deep, the other is 12" deep.

I'm not sure about the rules of valances (thanks for the inspirational picture Ironcook!), so I guessed and put an arch at each end of the tower columns. Pretend there is lighting in the valance. (Should the valance be open or solid?)

You can notice the difference in the depths here:

I like the idea of sconces on the tower ends facing the dining room, but I wasn't sure if they would pull your eye to the asymetric depths. Hmmmm...

I tried Live Wire's idea of the wine storage. If I did it right, and that is a big if, it lengthened the tower walls a bit too much. It looked great from the dining room (straight on) but quite massive from other angles. I am going to try that again and see if I can rework it better.

Thanks again everyone! This is so helpful!

How about this change... a 9" pull out in the tower by the window instead of the appliance garage and cabinet?. Spices, or cutting boards etc? Now we have symmetrical towers!

Please disregard the hardware placement.

I think it'd just be easier to make the existing wall 3" deeper to deal with the asymmetry. You wouldn't lose all of the storage that the cabinetry by the window proves then. You could make a floor to ceiling magazine rack facing the fridge side if you wanted that 3" to be useful storage. Or, if you increased the depth of your wall cabinets to 15" (back wall also, along with 30" deep base cabinets) and increased the wall by 6" instead of 3", that could give you some narrow shelving that could be a "cantry", where it could hold a single can. There's lots of storage in those types of pantries.

I have been following your thread. It seems like it is a done deal that you moved your frig to the other side of the hall. That means that you have to go through the kitchen proper to get into the living/dining area from the front door.

I have seen people here sacrifice the floor plan of the house for the floor plan of the kitchen. Your kitchen has a bit of that feeling for me. I personally would not like the idea of traveling through the middle of kitchen proper to get to the living/dining area (public reception area) when I am visiting someone I do not know well. I find that a bit intrusive into someone's home. I would feel as if I am going into the 'wrong' space as I step into your kitchen if I was there for the first time.

It's the same kind of feeling when you step into someone's kitchen from the backdoor, you feel as if you HAVE to be invited into the rest of the house to step in further. However, if you walk into the front door, then you feel as if you are welcomed into the livingroom but not into the kitchen....

If you are creating a kitchen that is a very public space which you travel through the work area to get to the living/dining entertaining area, I think it would be better to panel the frig. I also suggest that you tie in the elements of the kitchen cabinets into the other parts of the L/D, ie cabinets in the dining, matching built-in cabs in the living etc to obliterate the feeling that the kitchen is a working utilitarian space....

Depending on how the wall is constructed, and if there is a stud behind the cabinet/column against the exterior wall, could you make a recess and get appliance-type depth (at least 12'', measure some appliances) while minimizing the column's apparent thickness. I think a 12'' deep cabinet would be so much more useful than a 9'' - it really is the perfect place for an appliance garage - that I'd hate to give it up. At the same time, I see the appeal of a slim, elegant column. Maybe poke a hole in that wall and see? I think the two columns should be of equal thickness, for visual reasons.

Kaismom brings up an interesting point. Suppose you want a sparkly white kitchen but prefer dark polished wood for the dining and living rooms (suppose). Could you have one side of the Great Arch dark and the other half white? Similarly, would you have the integrated, paneled refrigerator and the cabinetry around it in dark wood? It might help delineate and define the kitchen space.

Yes, I think the two columns should be the same thickness--it's jarring if they're so close but not the same.

I could see either solution working. The pullout style is not as useful, but it's very good looking to have those slim columns with no cab doors in them. On the other hand, the appliance garage is very practical. johnliu is right; if you're going to try to squeeze in a "cantry" (love that word!) under the window, why not use the same trick on the appliance garage, so you get useful space with less bulk?

To kaismom's point, I would also agree that you should panel the fridge and try to keep the kitchen looking formal and tailored (in whatever style you prefer) rather than letting your well-used sausage-making equipment spill over into your entire condo.

That said, in condos like this one, it is not at all unusual to walk through or past the kitchen to get to the living spaces; usually the LR/DR is where you want the best view, so the poor kitchen gets tucked by the door.

Oh, one more thing. On the mandatory wall, looking at it from the kitchen side, the countertop doesn't wrap around it like it does around the appliance garage. If you're taking the symmetry this far, it should. You're trying to get the wall to disappear into a larger unit. That might be a dumb piece of filler, or possible a shallow roll-out or towel rack or something.

I don't know about the specifics, but I like how the wall is now a part of the design and not something you're working around.

Kaismom - You bring up an excellent, big-picture point. I am stuck looking at the trees instead of the forest. I understand your concerns about the feeling of entering from the back door. That was one of my initial concerns as well. However, one thing I have come to realize is that this condo is as Marcolo points out... all about the view from the living room/dining room.

They definitely sacrificed in many other areas in order to accomplish that. One unique item in this 60's condo is how they originally designed this kitchen to be completely closed off. There are sliding doors enclosing the little box of a kitchen. So that is how they handled that entry-near-the-kitchen kind of feeling... just close it off for guests! Right now, I am planning on using a paneled refrigerator. I think aesthetically, a built in would be much better. I will have to weigh the cost v. over refrigerator storage v. aesthetics carefully!

Fori - I agree. Trying to embrace the wall instead of fight it is a better way to go!

Livewire... I think I am closer to your idea, but am still a bit confused when you stated..."if you increased the depth of your wall cabinets to 15" (back wall also, along with 30" deep base cabinets) and increased the wall by 6"..." Which wall and base cabinets do you mean?

For now, here is a shot of the new cantry. I have also included a little base cabinet to seat the mandatory wall tower and match the appliance garage tower. Good catch!

I am guessing that the cabinet doors on the inside of the tower should be inset doors. No problem doing that on the appliance garage tower, but I'll have to wait and see what kind of room we end up with on the mandatory wall side. I am also not sure about what to do below the matching door on that same mandatory wall side. A small door below the bigger door doesn't seem right. Maybe no doors at all? Maybe an appliance garage door to nowhere? Maybe just some decoration instead of any doors? There is that symmetry issue again!

Inset v. overlay doors:

As for the design elements. Could you all clarify a bit more. For example, the cabinets I have added in the dining room are the same cabinets as the kitchen. I also used the same cabinets for under the tv in the living room. However, I thought maybe by changing the counters on them in the dining room and living room, that would help delineate those areas a bit. Or, I could change the cabinet color to a wood stain and keep the counter tops the same as the kitchen? Or... (last "or"), should I used the same cabinet & counter throughout the kitchen, dining room and living room? That sounds rather messy... let me simplify it.

Option A - dining/living room cabinets and counters the same as the kitchen.
Option B - dining/living room cabinets the same as kitchen, but different counters.
Option C - dining/living room cabinets different that kitchen, but the same counters.

I don't know if it matters or not... but there is a 99% chance that the entry, kitchen, dining room, and living room, will all share the same flooring.

Oh yeah... I should have some news about the HOA's decision to let us remove the drywall by the end of next week. :)

When I look back through this thread, I cannot believe how much this space has changed! Really amazing! That's the power of the Kitchen Forum!!! Thank you!

What I meant by those confusing words ;) was that you could increase the depth of the range wall cabinets to 15" uppers and 30" lowers which will give you a lot of additional storage space IN the kitchen but without overly compromising your aisle space.

I'm not grooving on cab doors facing the aisle, now that I see them. Too busy, and violates this image of the mandatory wall as part of a canopy over the counter.

Ditto lwo on the cabinet depths.

Thanks for clarifying Livewire. I like it! Here is the kitchen with 30" base cabinets and 15" deep uppers on the range wall. I had to change the range to a cooktop/oven combo to make it work. This changes the isle width to 42" without counting the counter top overhang. So... around 40" wide or so.

Before giving up on the cantry... what if the cabinets were plain doors? And the doors on the inside of the towers were plain as well? I also lined up the doors of the cantry to line up with the counters.

What if the entire kitchen had plain doors?

Just came upon this. It may not fit your style, but it has lots of style!

Here is a link that might be useful: Graber #223

Cotehele - Well that was a fun website! What a nice group of photos with all sorts of ideas. Thanks for posting it!

One more idea... probably a bit dated though... remember those doors that when you pushed on them, they would pop open? Maybe that method could be used on the cantry with plain doors and no hardware. You would still see the cut out, but...?

hi, all! what a clever group! :)

some different looks:

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[modern kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/modern-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2105) by san diego interior designer Stephanie Norris

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[modern kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/modern-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2105) by nashville interior designer Jamie Beckwith

some storage ideas:

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[traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by boston kitchen and bath Divine Kitchens LLC

[

[traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by san francisco interior designer K & M Designs

[

[traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by other metros interior designer Polly Blair

found this kind of late... not earthquake friendly, lol. :)

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[contemporary kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by san francisco interior designer Susan M. Davis

Wow Ironcook! Great ideas there. I love the shallow mail cabinet. Very interesting. Ever since I added the shallow cabinet to seat the mandatory wall tower, I have been thinking about what could be stored there. I got excited with the cutting board storage idea, but now you have added another one to the list. Thanks!

Based on Cotehele's photo....

The storage up above, is not intended to be used regularly. It was just a means to an connect the towers. The lowest point of the arch is 77" above the floor, still above the eye line. The cabinets above are 25" wide by 12" tall, with double doors. The doors on the inside of the towers look like they should be narrowed, but I haven't been able to figure out how to do that yet. What do you think? Does it look to heavy or bulky?

I struggled with a bridge over an anchored island in one of the versions of my kitchen. I don't know if either of these would help. We were taking down a load bearing wall and incorporating a beam I was trying to conceal.

What is in the 41'' x 7'' wall that must stay? plumbing or electrical stack?

The small cabinet against the wall is pantry storage 1 can deep. To me, using the full width of the room made the kitchen feel more open.

Here is another version that made the kitchen feel very cut off from the dining room. The contrast was significant to me. The oven on the DR side was an attempt to make a baking center on this side of the run. The sink spans the counter to be accessible from both sides.

I like your glass cabinets. (if you are using home designer, there is a 'standard' glass that is see through rather than being opaque). Are you using crown? I think the proportions of the bridge needs a little more mass along the top.

This photo (also above) would nicely tie the width of the room together. Longer upper cabinet run has nicer proportions than only partially spanning the width to my eye. The style is reminiscent of your other kitchen. Perhaps you are looking at a completely different style. The concept is the same.

[

[traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by boston architect Battle Associates, Architects

OK, based on the double arch Cotehele posted last, one over counter, one over walkway, if you DO add on a cabinet by the fridge and wall in the fireplace as in one of your previous renditions, would it look stupid to do THAT?

It's too hard to scroll up and see how high your ceilings are. :)

Sorry, but I think you're heading back to kitchen-in-a-box with these last couple of drawings. I liked much better with just the arched valance.

Well... it's official. I "jumped the shark" over the weekend. Cotohele, your photos put me into a computer frenzy! I put so many cabinets in that condo... you would need to leave bread crumbs just to find the front door! It all started with the idea of a double arch... and it went bonkers from there. Next thing you know, I was building fireplaces and entertainment centers, and you name it! Talk about overboard! LOL Here is the beginning stage of my building chaos.

Then... a bit of sanity returned. I decided to go back to the "embrace the mandatory wall" mentality, so I added double glass doors to the tower. This is a very shallow (6" or less?) cabinet. Maybe wine glasses or such. So I thought I would keep the wine storage in the base cabinet around the corner. My computer program doesn't have many choices for wine storage, so just pretend a bit. This is what I ended up with...

I also increased the size of the arches. Fori, the ceiling height is 8'. And Writersblock... thank you for your honest opinion. That is why this forum works!

So... what do you think? Better... or worse? Right track or go back! There are a ton of ideas in this thread. I thank you all for submitting them!

i think your last picture has too many competing visual lines.

i realize you have limited software choices, but the diagonal wine storage seems too busy and too wide. i would stick with vertical storage and not wider than two columns of bottles. if you need more, maybe flank them on the ends of cabinets for symmetry?

i do like the appliance garage with the glass cabinet above. there are appliance garages with tip-up doors that tuck in. then it will look like a matching cabinet door from the front when closed.

maybe the cabinets facing the hall should match the the appliance garage and glass cabinet above? and have solid doors on the bottom matching those facing the dining room?

maybe all too matchy, not sure....

i think the arch you used on Friday the 18th was a little shorter, too. i liked that one better. just mho. :)

Ironcook... you have pinpointed the issues I was struggling with, and offered excellent solutions. Thank you! Why couldn't I do that!

Cleaned up images:
8" valance
Solid doors on bottom of tower
Appliance garage has a regular kind of door
No longer inset doors on the towers

This change will also help on the inside of the mandatory wall tower. If nothing else... a panel under the door will match the appliance garage.

Thanks!

hey... where did everyone go?

tsdiver is off somewhere planning storage...? ;)

what did the condo board say?

I do like the 2/20 drawings, with the arch over the hallway and the built-ins by the fireplace. I like it a lot, actually.

Didn't like the diagonal wine storage. Kind of miss the hard-drinking blondes.

Regarding 2/20 drawing that johnliu mentioned, I am not sure you can pull it off with 8ft ceiling.

Where the arch is now, I would put open/decorative storage area that are open cabinet boxes where you can put baskets, large serving platters etc that do not get used often but look fabulous. I think there is too much openess with the arches as is. It emphasizes the openess in a room where that is not the theme of the decor. Additionally, the arches relate to nothing in that room or the kitchen. They stand out too much. How will you relate the arches to the rest of your place?

Sorry, I didn't see the activity on this thread after I posted the picture with the double arches. Ha, not Mickey D's :0)

I really like the concept, too, John. A simple bracket at each end of the runs rather than the full arch would open it up and be less complicated. I would use glass on both sides of the upper cabinets and light them. Because of the mandatory wall tower, to me the kitchen feels chopped up with the fridge and cupboards along the wall and nothing to connect the two spaces. I am not clear on the style you have chosen for your kitchen, but I think this would work with a variety of styles.

I'm back! LOL Guess what! We got conditional approval last night at the board meeting. (Happy Dance!) I have contacted our prospective demo contractor, and it looks like it will be a few weeks before we can remove the drywall. In the meanwhile, I have been dragging and dropping cabinets everywhere!

Without knowing exactly what the issues might be... I have been drawing for many different scenarios. One such scenario is that the 41" mandatory wall (which I had been shortening to 27") might have to remain all the way out toward the dining room corner. It looks like it might be able to be shorted from the kitchen counter side... but ??? This just about kills any kind of over the hallway arch or cabinets as it would be more than 3' from the fireplace wall toward the dining room.

So, I embraced the wall, err the drain pipe, err, the Kitchen Forum just-go-with-it attitude, and kept playing around with different ideas.

A lot of the decisions also depend on if we keep the fireplace as is, or change it. Sheesh.. that is another research hole I have found myself in. Who knew? What? You already knew that? :)

So at this point... I do not want to waste your time posting all kinds of options until I know for sure what my limitations are. Then... I am going to beg and plead with you all to help me, again!

I sure appreciate your continued interest and your input in this project! Thank you!

Thanks for the update. Don't assume anything though. Bring back your mandatories--there may be other ways to make some of these ideas work.

Thanks for the update. Don't assume anything though. Bring back your mandatories--there may be other ways to make some of these ideas work.

How is this is working out? I am very curious because I am considering buying a condo with a very similar layout. Personally, I like having space for a small assortment of herb plants. Ideally, a bay window. In this case, I would put open shelving or something on one of the walls adjacent to the sink for holding plants.

I also really liked the look of the arch. With the right notches, it could also be used for holding wine glasses by their stems.

thanks for the update... looking forward to your return! :)

i've had this bookmarked waiting for you to come back! it's just kind of interesting because it reminded me of your space.

[

[contemporary kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by chicago interior designer Emily Mackie Norris

[

[contemporary kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by chicago interior designer Emily Mackie Norris

Teatime - I wish I could give you more feedback, but unfortunately, we are not in the construction phase yet. I would love a bay window there! No way with our HOA though.

Ironcook - that is an amazingly similar layout! Thanks for posting it!

We are having problems with some of the HOA conditions. Until we get this worked out, we are at a stand still. We cannot even remove the drywall. It's going to be a while :(

Well...it has been another month and no exiting news to post. We have been to another Home Owners Association Board Meeting and are awaiting their decision. Hopefully, we will know something no later than May 31. Their decision will tell us if we can remodel our unit or not. (sigh)

Even though we are having a problem with some of the paperwork required by the HOA, we have gone ahead and submitted our remodel plans to the HOA for their review. Once the HOA issue is resolved (fingers crossed), we will be able to move on with the city requirements.

You all spent so much time helping me, I just wanted to let you know where we stand. Thanks again!

I'm new here and have to say that this project is quite the transformation. From the 1st post to the most recent, the changes are huge.
And you guys are more than generous with your time, expertise and ideas.

I'm in the very early stages of beginning to plan a new kitchen and was curious as to what software you're using to make these renderings.

Thanks.

Good luck! Please let us know.

Twirl - Yes... the folks here are simply amazing. I am currently living in a home with a kitchen designed by the generous Kitchen Forum people. If I could be so bold and offer a piece of advice... try everything in the design stage. When some of the posters were explaining their vision to me, I just didn't get it.. but I tried it... then like a sledgehammer, it hit me. Wonderful out of the box thinkers! I used two different software systems in this thread. I started out with an old copy of Chief Architect, but I am currently using Home Designer Suite ($99) made by Chief Architect. One thing that I like about using the computer is that I am able to drag and drop items around the room. I have a very limited imagination, so this is extremely helpful!

Johnliu - Thanks! You got it!

Thanks for keeping us updated.

You are an example for those seeking layout help in this forum. You started with detailed measured drawings, so people could actually see what would fit. You consistently responded to posts and quickly showed us the results. You explained restrictions clearly. That's why you got so many responses to your thread, and so many different ideas from different people.

Good luck. You deserve a great kitchen!

That's kind of you to say Marcolo. And thank you... for all your help!

tsdiver, Thanks. I'm reaserching the software now.

Let's not forget her great parties. Hic.

LOL Johnliu! Yeah... just remember, don't drink and post! ;)

i saw ur layout its a fantastic work...thanks man thanks for sharing....and the pic of kitchen rooms are nice and specially the Used Kitchen Equipment are nice..me going to share this layout with my friends...

I hope you can get approval from your HOA. It would be so interesting to see how this turned out.

TeatimeAnn - So nice of you to remember my little condo kitchen. Thanks! No physical progress, but some of the HOA issues have been resolved...

(Sigh) It has been quite a process. We have been working with the Home Owners Association board since February to determine the scope of our project. To make a very long, sad, story short... we will be able to accomplish a lot of our remodel, but we will not be able to add certain "common area" (read as inside the walls and ceiling) items. For example, no recessed lights, no gas line for a range, no exterior kitchen vent for the range etc. I am in California, so no recessed lighting might be a challenge to meet title 24 requirements.

We are just now getting copies of all the required contractor documents for the HOA and will hopefully be able to start the demo soon. I've stopped holding my breath.

Once the walls are open, then we get to reapply with the HOA and see what they approve for the remodel. Then it will be off to the city to see what they have to say.

What a crazy, disappointing process.

Wow, that's too bad. I'm sure you'll find a good solution to the lighting with all the new low profile LED lights, etc. An exterior vent is definitely a big plus in a kitchen. Hope you can at least find a way to create air circulation. Have you seen those new downdraft stoves?
http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/html/GEAResults.htm#Category=Telescopic_Downdraft_Systems
I wonder if they require exterior venting.
Also, have you considered induction? It is almost as responsive as gas, more energy efficient, and easier to clean. The main limitation is you can only use pans whose outer layer is conductive (e.g., no copper).

P.S. The address for the thread is http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg021640237704.html

This is so strange. It appears my post did go though, but I cannot see it listed in the forum on any page. I even did a search for stacked condo, then tsdiver and was unable to pull it up.

Teatimeann... do you see this thread listed in the forum or are you going to it a different way?

As for the downdraft idea... I checked the installation manual and they said that it must be vented outdoors. It looks like we might be stuck with the charcoal filter style venting back into the kitchen. And yes, we are interested in induction. :)

No, I don't see it on the main page either. I am just using a bookmark. Good luck with the HOA lords!