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aquaeyes_gw

Need size and sun duration info for some Chinas, Polys, Teas, and Misc

AquaEyes 7a NJ
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago

I'm expanding my planting areas, and after seeing that my few China and Tea guinea pigs can survive Winters here in protected spots, I did a little shopping. I already have ideas in mind for where roses will go, but some of what I picked have conflicting information regarding size and general habit. Also helpful would be information about sun -- how much is enough, and which will get crisped flowers in midday sun. I also started clearing room in my enclosed-but-drafty back porch, so overwintering pots and barrels there is now possible. For those of you in California and other areas with little or no Winter, I realize that they get much bigger for you, but I'd still appreciate information about shape -- wider-than-tall, narrow-and-arching, etc.

Chinas (I realize some of these are borderline Teas)

'Arethusa'

"Boone Hall China"

'Comtesse du Cayla'

'Cramoisi Superieur'

'Ducher'

"Dutch Fork China"

"Ferndale Red China"

'Louis Philippe' -- I think what I got previously is WPIRDM, so trying again....

'Miss Lowe’s Variety'

'Rival de Paestum'

Polyanthas (I'm hoping to hear of tolerance for less-than-full-sun)

'Blue Mist'

'Leonie Lamesch'

"Lindee"

'Pink Soupert'

Teas (those which get very wide and spreading will probably go in barrels)

'Alexander Hill Gray'

'Alliance Franco-Russe' -- will this fry in midday sun?

'Devoniensis' -- will this fry in midday sun?

'Etoile de Lyon'

'Perle des Jardins' -- will this fry in midday sun?

'Rosette Delizy'

"Thomasville Old Gold"

Misc

'Gruss an Teplitz' -- will this fry in midday sun?

"Maggie" -- will this fry in midday sun?

OK, the planting areas I have are:

1) the brick-lined strip against the neighbor's house, leading to the path through the main beds in the back yard. This is a narrow planting space, but there's room for "spilling over" beyond it. This area gets full-sun from about 8-9am through about 4-5pm, then bright shade. So any which go here need to NOT fry in midday sun. I'm thinking of the larger Chinas, the smaller Teas, and 'Gruss an Teplitz' and "Maggie" as potentials for this area.

2) my little front yard box. The side against the walk to my steps gets full sun, much like the previous area. But just a few feet in there are areas venturing into part sun, dappled sun, and bright shade, thanks to the Japanese maple in the center. It's already dying, so eventually this area will get more sun. I already have to move 'Souvenir du Dr. Jamain' because the part of the tree which used to give it midday shade has already died. I was thinking of the shortest of the Chinas in the sun part, gradually evolving to Polyanthas as the shade increases, and continuing with more Polyanthas in the strip against my house. But the ones I have in mind for there will be for another order in the future. I'll talk about that at another date.

3) pots, and my 22" resin barrels. I learned with my experiment with HTs that they need to go in for Winter here -- maybe not as much for the cold, but melting snow flooded several, and I think they're dead. Those which made it were in areas where the sun melted the snow quickly. I would actually prefer the wide, full, bushy Teas for the barrels. I know the idea of this may be sacrilege for you Californians, but I want to experiment. I'm already seeing that "Bermuda Spice" rebounds well after Spring pruning, and I want to try a few others. I realize that this won't work for all, but as I often say, you're not a real gardener if you don't kill a few plants along the way.

Thanks in advance for all your help. Oh, and I have quite a few other possibilities for Polyanthas for less-than-full-sun, and Teas for growing in barrels, but this first round was based on which on "my list" were actually available from two nurseries I wanted to try out. If others come to your minds, feel free to pass on further suggestions. They may already be in my head.

:-)

~Christopher

Comments (10)

  • titian1 10b Sydney
    8 years ago

    Christopher, I can only comment on Comtesse du Cayla. She gets sun from morning till mid to late afternoon, and she does burn for me on hot, and not so hot days. But I'm in 10b. She is a favourite of mine, despite this.

    AquaEyes 7a NJ thanked titian1 10b Sydney
  • titian1 10b Sydney
    8 years ago

    Oh, and she's been slow to establish here. Still only 3 to 4' tall and slightly less wide after 3 years.

    AquaEyes 7a NJ thanked titian1 10b Sydney
  • Buford_NE_GA_7A
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    I had CdC, on of my favorites. She didn't fry, but her blooms did not last that long. But she got all day sun and a lot of afternoon sun in my yard. I don't think you will have an issue with her.

    Rosette d'Lizzy will be fine in the sun.


    Almost forgot, I just got Arethusa. I love the blooms with the loose thin petals. They seem to go fast, but I still have her in a pot so I'm not sure how she will do long term.

    AquaEyes 7a NJ thanked Buford_NE_GA_7A
  • Mendocino Rose
    8 years ago

    Here goes. Arethusa here(zone 8) is a little over 4 feet more blooms in the spring no frying. Comtess du Cayla is large and sprawling here like 5 by 6 it gets a little shade, Cramoisi Superieur is not overly vigorous and is in partial shade. Ferndale Red China is upright to 4 feet. I would say it isn't very fond of summer temperatures. Miss Lowe's has been slow to build. I suspect it will have more problems in zone 7a. I hope Alexander Hill Gray grows for you as it does for me, ten feet tall, wonderful spring bloom. Devoniensis has not fried in the sun. It produces more blooms in the spring though. Rosette Delizy tall upright small blooms OK in summer. I hope that is helpful.

    AquaEyes 7a NJ thanked Mendocino Rose
  • jerijen
    8 years ago

    Christopher -- I didn't answer this because our conditions are so mega-different. But a couple of things that might be helpful:

    Chinas (I realize some of these are borderline Teas)'Ducher'-- Was a weak grower for me, but beautiful, and I will try it again.
    "Ferndale Red China"-- Vigorous and disease-free here. Blooms open well in warm conditions, tho they can ball on cool, foggy days.

    'Louis Philippe' -- A wonderful rose for me.

    'Miss Lowe’s Variety' -- I got this as "Bengal Fire." It's wonderful here.

    Polyanthas (I'm hoping to hear of tolerance for less-than-full-sun)

    'Leonie Lamesch' -- Beautiful, fragrant, and disease-free here. Never quite got over having gophers ate its roots.
    Teas (those which get very wide and spreading will probably go in barrels)

    'Etoile de Lyon' -- You may sometimes have to remove the outer (Guard) petals. Then the bloom opens perfectly.

    'Rosette Delizy' -- Disease-free. Beautiful. Wouldn't be without it.


    AquaEyes 7a NJ thanked jerijen
  • catspa_NoCA_Z9_Sunset14
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    As you may have noticed from my previous posts, many of the roses in the Tea and China classes get BIG here:

    Comtesse du Cayla, 8' x 8' at 8 years (with regular, firm pruning -- heaven knows how big she would be otherwise...has on occasion tried to climb the nearby orange tree...), blooms do fry in temps over 85F, but I imagine if you have some humidity, they may have more fortitude.

    Etoile de Lyon, 7' x 12' at 10 years, totally heat-proof (one of my best if it is over 100F, and generally a great, favorite rose here), but a total catastrophe if there is even a hint of moisture in the air (brown blooms that hang on forever -- this one always gets deadheaded). The first flush is almost always trashed by moisture.

    Ducher, hit 4' in a couple of years and was still going, but was such a mildew magnet that he was removed.

    Ferndale Red China, hit 5' here in 3 years, got moved last winter because obviously NOT a front-of-the-border rose, but already now back to 5' as if nothing had happened (I call that "vigorous"). I'm glad, seeing Mendocino Rose's comment, that the new spot gets afternoon shade. Mildews, but not insufferably.

    Miss Lowe's Variety, perfect tea-like foliage, amazingly does not mildew. 6' x 6' in 5 years, spring and fall flushes are best, but some blooms all the time.

    Alliance Franco-Russe was mostly annoying here. Mildewed leaves always, fragile blooms (moisture, heat, you name it) , so he was a big (7' x 7') ugly plant that really had no good time of the year (and in a great part of the garden). I put up with him for 6 years, hoping for improvement, then said goodbye.

    Devoniensis did not fry in the sun, but did mildew badly on the east side of the yard. Was fine on the west side of the yard. Was going to be too big for space available (5' x 5' when he left), and I needed the space for rarer roses, so no longer here.

    Thomasville Old Gold was such a mildew magnet that he only lasted two years here.

    Cramoisi Supérieur, like most Chinas, mildews some, but not so much as to get booted out. I am charmed by this rose, especially the spring and fall blooms. 4' x 5' so far (4 years).

    AquaEyes 7a NJ thanked catspa_NoCA_Z9_Sunset14
  • AquaEyes 7a NJ
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    I thank you all for taking the time to give our opinions. Even those from California will help me. Mildew almost never happens for me here, but the information about sun tolerance is very helpful. And I keep in mind that "California sizes" are probably at least 50% greater than I could ever achieve for Chinas and Teas -- perhaps 100% greater. I'm going to re-read these posts a few times, and when my roses come, I'll keep them in pots until at least late Summer. This way I can move them around a bit and see how they do. Thanks again! Of course, I'll update as I go along. And anyone else with experience with any I mentioned, please feel free to chime in.

    :-)

    ~Christopher


  • Buford_NE_GA_7A
    8 years ago

    Here, CdC was a nicely rounded 4 ft high and about 5 feet wide. Perfect vase shape. It may have gotten larger if I had been able to keep it, but probably not as big as in CA. So yours should be about the same or smaller Christopher. And you may get more winter dieback than I do (except of course for the Polar Vortexes). My Devoniensis was puny, but I had hopes that it would do better when I moved it. Alas, it did not survive being dug up and kept in a pot being shuffled back and forth into the basement during all the silly temperature swings we had this past winter. Gee, I wonder why???

    Sigh, I think a trip to Roses Unlimited is in my future.

    PS, just a word about Rosette d'Lizzy, mine liked to have canes suddenly die back overnight. Not sure why. It had finally started to stabilize when I had to dig it up.


    AquaEyes 7a NJ thanked Buford_NE_GA_7A
  • Mendocino Rose
    8 years ago

    I should have mentioned that too Buford. Mine(Rosette Delizy) has canes dying back often.

    AquaEyes 7a NJ thanked Mendocino Rose