Thanks for explaining, Sara, while I was asleep. I'm just waking up over here.

It's exactly as Sara said, and you will need to keep heading them back to produce more shoots rather than letting them grow tall as fast as possible. Because you're looking for bushiness right to the ground. If you are thinking of a hedge as I am. Solid and regularly pruned.

With P. lusitanica, I have never had to touch them to make them bushy/shrubby. I've actually had to prune them to make them narrower, as I planted three to hide a large transformer and they intruded into the driveway a bit. I've also cut them off at the base and let them resprout (not an application that fits many situations!)

Westes if you want a similar look with less water use, try Laurus 'Saratoga'. You have to avoid standards with this one, also. It blooms sulfur-yellow and you can use the leaves in cooking. Very well-adapted to our Mediterranean climate. Other choices are Myrica californica (even less water but wants to be wider) or Rhamnus alaternus (several cultivars, including a variegated one. Now called Frangula but nurseries are still selling it as Rhamnus). If you are a mild 9b you could also use Dodonea viscosa, which is maroon-leaved.

Maybe we have different mental images of the proposed hedge. Mine tends towards a clipped formal hedge rather than a row of natural form shrubs.

@floral_uk if we head back the lusitanica, you are saying they will grow wider? So conversely if one becomes bushy and wide, would trimming back the sides put more growth into height?

Westes, I think we need to know your vision for this hedge before discussing it further. I am used to formal clipped hedges which are regularly cut on both top and sides. When first planted they are cut back to encourage multiple stems and side shoots. Is that what you want? Or are you thinking more of a looser row of shrubs not clipped to a geometrical shape?

Around here there is much less formality. Most 'hedges' are more like what you might know as hedgerows, although typically a monoculture.

Westes, no, trimming the top of the P. lusitanica isn't going to make it wider. It will get plenty wide on its own.

@floral_uk, the hedge is protecting a private garden that used to be the front lawn of a home that is in front of a public school. The objective is privacy. There will be a tall statue inside the garden, and I don't want that to be visible from the street or by cars driving by. I am less concerned about achieving perfect rectangular shape than I am about a hedge that fails to grow high enough. As long as it can grow to about eight feet high, I can tolerate some looseness in the shape. I don't want people to be able to peak through the hedge as well, so I might end up having two rows of hedges offset from each other like this:

....X.....X.....X.....X.....X.....X

X.....X.....X.....X.....X.....X

I am sensitive on this issue because literally every promise made by every landscaper in this project has - four years later - simply not come true. The photinia did not grow high fast. The photinia did not shield the view of the garden from the street, so I had to plant an offset second row of photinia. The pittosporum never grew tall. I am literally batting 0% on the entire border hedge of this garden. This is try #5 for me. I want a hedge that will grow thick and tall and just put me out of my agony on this issue. :)

Well it sounds as if you don't need to prune them hard as long as you buy good bushy specimens to start with. The idea of pruning was not to make them wider but to make them produce more branches and hence thicken up.

But you would need to reduce the height eventually. This is a plant which wants to be a small tree.

you say this is try number five...in in 4 years...

OF COURSE no promise made by landscaper has proven true...how could they? Hedges take time to grow in...time...as in YEARS. Just about the time the first planting would be getting established and becoming what you ant...you've already replaced it a few times. You want it immediate? Pull out the checkbook, get things already at size.

Which presents problems of itself. How often do you want to be trimming this? Hedges are often maintained as much smaller sizes than they would grow to if you don't trim. Want to see what happens when you say, oh, I can keep that trimmed, than fail to do so? Drive down just about any street. Failure can have many definitions...and one of those definitions can be getting exactly what you thought you wanted.

And get some patience. And pay the landscaper more. they have earned it.

Yeah, instant gratification hard to come by in this case. The only way that you could get an 'instant' hedge that would completely shield the garden from the street and not cost as much as a house is to use Thuja occidentalis 'Smaragd' (sold as Emerald Green). They are readily available in b&b, are inexpensive for the amount of biomass and height you get (I paid $90 for specimens about 8-10' tall) and are easily transplanted and not fussy once they are established. The biggest argument against them is that they are boring, but they make a beautiful deep green background. I use them as punctuation rather than as a hedge, but if you Google them, you'll find them everywhere.

Thuja occidentalis Emerald Green

After last year's hot summer period very many 'Smaragd' hedges up here have a percentage of dead individuals. This includes plantings that have been in place for years. Perhaps this was due directly to drought, perhaps it is mite damage - otherwise many of them do appear to have gone red in recent months. And this cultivar is also more prone to root rot than usual for Thuja occidentalis.

They seem to do ok around here but they have to be watered. In the OP's application, he may well decide the water is worth it. I am famous for under watering but mine have been fine, I suspect because they are in heavy soil (I have adobe), and heavily mulched. A friend in Novato, which is more like 8b than 9a, also has quite a few that are lovely but she waters overhead and likely a good 25% more than I do.

@floral_uk, so the purpose of trimming them is to increase density in the area of the cut?

@Wayne I never replaced any of the hedges.

The main Photinia hedge is facing the street and has been in place more than four years and has none of the characteristics that were promised for it. The Pittosporum hedge runs on a different edge of the garden and again has been there more than four years and again has done none of the things that were promised for it. The Pittosporums are lovely healthy plants, but I cannot get them dense above three feet. I have had multiple horticulturalists look at it, and none of them ever succeed in getting those plants to grow taller.

I never removed any hedge.

@saramalone Thuja occidentalis Emerald Green looks like a plant I would go with if I had a huge estate and needed to create a quick privacy barrier for an acre of land. My garden is tiny, so getting the maximum aesthetics seems like a better goal.

@gardengal48 thank you for those points.

Comparing Smaragd to Prunus lusitanica 'Angustifolia' what do you think are the pros and cons of each? Which do you prefer? I love the flower on Lusitanica

IMO, the only pros of the laurel are the flowers. It can get quite tall and pretty darn wide, so pruning will be necessary or it will eat a small garden!! And as Sara mentioned previously, it is hard to find a bushy one of any size and if you do, the cost will be 2-3 times that of a similarly sized arborvitae. And they have an ability to become invasive - or at least in my area - in the same manner as English laurel. The flowers become berries, which are eaten by birds who then distribute the seeds far and wide and then they pop up in natural or forested areas.

Other than being attractive to deer, I can't think of many cons for the arborvitae. There is a very good reason why they are so widely used :-) And I have not seen any indication that established arb hedges here suffered any more in last year's dry (but not hot) summer than they have in any previous summer......they are ALL very dry here :-))

@gardengal48 okay good arguments.

Starting from a 4 to 5 foot plant, how much height and width would each of those shrubs add each year?

@gardengal48 There is another section of my home, facing the south, that has Italian cypress planted. They are huge mature trees, and I absolutely hate them. I suppose if they were trimmed consistently they would have an appeal, but mine are sloppy looking, not well cared for, and I would love to find a way to get rid of them. Maybe the laurel would be better in that location, as a replacement for the cypress? In this application the ability to grow very tall would be an actual requirement. That hedge is providing a sun shade to the home and patio.

Italian cypress (around here, anyway) tend to start to fall apart (visually) after they get tall enough. I can't say that many of them look good. The only ones that I remember liking were in Tuscany but I pretty much liked everything there. Maybe it was the Chianti?

@saramalone I think Italian Cypress work best in formal Italian gardens, but even then they only work when they are kept to the same approximate height and trimmed precisely. As design objects, they work when they give perfect symmetry and perfect geometrical lines, to reinforce the style of a formal garden. Left to grow into a natural form, they just look like shaggy homeless dogs. :)

So what do you think of the Portuguese Laurel Cherry as a replacement? Put them on the South end of the property, let them grow very tall, and use that for shade?

As long as you are willing to wait a few years and you don't mind the width.

You can expect 6-12" a year on the arborvitae. The width will fill in more slowly, as they never get much wider than 3' but they are typically quite full even at 5' height.

Can any of you comment on these three Laurel variants, specific to use as an eight to 10 foot hedge in zone 9a/9b?

Prunus Lusitanica aka Portugal Laurel

Prunus Laurocerasus aka English Laurel

Prunus Caroliniana aka Carolina Cherry Laurel

I have P. laurocerasus 'Camellifolia' and after about six years it's maybe 4-5' tall and as wide. It began as a #5. I don't think nearly fast growing enough for you.

Here, both species of P. laurocerasus and lusitanica (no culitvars!) grow quite rapidly once established. In fact, English laurel hedges in this area grow rapidly to an enormous size in just a few years requiring frequent trimming to keep them in check. Growth rates under ideal conditions (good soil, plenty of sun and adequate water) are up to 24" annually for English laurel and 18" for Portuguese laurel.

Carolina laurel is not common here so can't comment on that species.

I'm probably not watering enough. it looks plenty healthy, but sure not fast.

@gardengal48 At Summerwinds nursery they are stocking the "dwarf" version of the Carolina Cherry. These are not great photos, but they will give you some idea:

This conversation just now about Sara's English Laurel is a mirror of the conversations I had with landscapers about both of the hedges I am suffering with now. Everyone promised growth after two years. It's been four years and not so much growth.... Obviously, the plants are missing some magic ingredient, and no one who looks at them ever correctly identifies what that is. They suggest trimming strategies, which don't work. They suggest fertilizers, which don't work. They suggest watering schedules, which don't work. They suggested just waiting, which didn't work. The hedges just stay fairly low and grow slowly, and it's been four years so no one can accuse me of impatience.

@gardengal48 how do English and Portugal Laurel grow out their roots? I guess if I put them in a raised planter box that this is going to slow down root growth?

If I wanted to amend hard clay soil for these plants, what would be the best soil mix? I was thinking filtered fir bark and Turface might work, but I would have to invest in fertilizing regularly until the roots were down in the clay soil under the raised bed.

Like 99% of all other plants, the roots expand horizontally.

Actually, laurels are extremely tolerant of clay soils. But their establishment and subsequent rate of growth will be influenced by how one plants in clay. Typically, the recommendations are to dig a very wide but shallow planting hole, roughing up the sides. Plant high - so that the top of the rootball of either a B&B or containerized plant is above the existing soil grade several inches. Back fill with only the removed soil, breaking up as necessary, and forming a slight mound. Any amendments one thinks one needs should be applied as a mulch or topdressing, never incorporated into the planting hole.

An alternative is a raised bed or even a more loosely structured mound or berm of imported soil. But you want real soil - topsoil, garden planting mix, landscape soil - not ingredients for a container potting mix!!

And there is a strong relationship between watering and rate of growth. Provided the soil drains adequately, periodic deep waterings will encourage more rapid growth than frequent light sprinkling....like from an automated irrigation system.

'Smaragd' hedges with multiple dead individuals mixed in are highly prevalent in my area (western King and Snohomish Counties) at this time. And I'm not talking about failures within new plantings, where the problem might easily have been lack of post planting watering. Or dried out field soil root-balls at time of planting.

@gardengal48 Can you elaborate on a Laurel's need for "real soil"? If you were making that soil yourself from scratch, what would be in it?

You can't "make" soil :-) It takes the action of wind, rain, erosion and many millions of years to create soil out of natural rock and whatever organic matter collects there and decomposes. 'Real' soil is very different from potting or container soil, which is typically referred to as a "soil-less mix" or a growing medium.

'Real' soil is what is out in your garden - some combination of clay, silt and sand and a small percentage of mostly decomposed organic matter. And this - typically in its unamended state - is what all outdoor, inground, landscape plantings should be planted in.......not potting soil, not bark fines and not Turface or other potting soil components.

@gardengal48 so why can't you grind up hard clay soil and amend that with Turface and bark, to improve aeration? If you had a mix that was 40% original clay, 30% Turface, and 30% fir bark, what is that going to lose over 100% original clay?

Why would you bother? Those are very expensive amendments to use with any inground plantings! And to successfully amend a clay soil so that it was safe to plant without creating a bathtub effect, you would need to do so over a very wide area. So the effort and expense escalates significantly. Why not just plant directly in the clay as I described above, using organic matter (like compost) to top dress? Or if you wish to do a raised bed or berm, just order a load of landscape or garden planting mix from a local supplier. Easy-peasy and quite inexpensive.

Field grown nursery stock is lined out and grown to size in whatever natural soil is thought suitable* for such use, then shipped to retail outlets. To be sold to a market where a percentage of end consumers think they have to do a bunch of soil modification in order to get these same plants to continue growing well, if at all. This practical disconnect is particularly evident among the ranks of rose hobbyists, where it continues to be insisted that heavily amended planting holes containing whole lists of ingredients are essential for success. Even though most of the roses they are planting - except for that comparatively small percentage that were container grown from the start - were produced in fields of natural soil.

If you see particular kinds of plants on other sites around you there, that look good and have been in place for many years whatever - if any - fiddling with the soil was done at planting time is no longer in effect.

Yet the plants look good.

Showing thereby that they didn't need it in the first place.

*This often includes it being of a sticky nature, so that root-balls hold together during and after the digging process

@gardengal48 Again, I am considering a raised bed planting, exactly to avoid the "bathtub effect".

Why am I bothering: to avoid another four years of hedges with no growth?

What does garden planting mix have in it that is preferable for this case?

@Embothrium What am I supposed to infer about plantings around me that are 40 years old, with reference to my four-year-old planting? I want faster growth than what my native soil seems to be giving me.

If you aren't maintaining a substantial mulch of some depth around all your plantings that is probably the main thing that needs to be done in this instance, in order to improve plant response. With hot and dry summer conditions probably being the dominant limiting factor - something that effective mulching would help with.

Hot and dry conditions - in addition to limiting growth of plants not specifically adapted to them - also foster the development of mite infestations.

"Why am I bothering: to avoid another four years of hedges with no growth?

What does garden planting mix have in it that is preferable for this case?"

The 'why bother' was mostly rhetorical :-) Going through that much effort with amendments that were never intended for that purpose seems unnecessarily overdone (and pricey) when you could accomplish the same thing - and perhaps even better - through more conventional practices.

Garden planting mix is about as close to loam - that mythical ideal planting medium - as one can easily get. Fast draining, adequately moisture retentive and with a decent amount of fertility and with that all important mineral soil component.

@gardengal48 If you were doing a raised bed, you would plant in 100% garden planting mix?

If I needed to import soil - not enough of my own - that is exactly what I would use.

@gardengal48 here is an ingredients list for my nursery's G&B Organic Planting Mix. This looks like a whole lot of guano to me. :) It also has peat moss, which I tend to hate because it becomes hard and unruly after several years. Why couldn't I just create my own mix of clay soil, some water-absorbant material such as Turface/pumice/whatever, and various organics/guano/manure? (The ingredient list also have some alkaline additives, and I will probably prefer a slightly acidic soil.)

What do you intend to use this for? Really need to know that before making any reasonable response :-) btw, the additives are there to buffer the pH to close to neutral, otherwise the mix would be too acidic. Pretty much any commercial packaged mix will have this buffering unless it is formulated for acid loving plants......even that will still have some but somewhat less.

@gardengal48 One of the three laurels we discussed, probably English Laurel because this is on South edge of home and it will provide a sun shade.

What do you intend to use this for?

Conversation has apparently gone back to - or never left - talking about amending the planting site.

https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/planting-instructions.pdf

If you are creating a raised bed or berm, then you want to get your soil from a bulk supplier, not bagged stuff. It's about 50-75% cheaper in bulk and you don't need any of the fancy-schmancy additives - just landscape or garden planting mix (aka 3-way mix - topsoil, compost and sand or bark for added drainage). If NOT creating a raised bed or berm but planting directly into the clay, use no amendments but plant as instructed above, digging a wide, shallow hole and planting high, backfilling with only what is removed. Any amendments you think you might want to add, use as a mulch or topdressing.

I don't have the time (and to be honest, the inclination) to go into it all in detail but you cannot equate growing in a container to growing in the ground. Two completely separate set of circumstances! Containers are not bathtubs - there is no impediment to free drainage (if with a proper drainhole(s) and a decent media). They do not simulate at all the slow drainage of a clay enclosed planting hole, which can sometimes hold water around the root system of plants for days, which no container should ever do!!

If you doubt it, do a side by side test to see: a container filled with a fast draining media and the clay planting hole filled with the same. The water will run freely out of the container but there is nowhere for the water to run freely out of the clay....hence the bathtub. It is just soil physics.

@gardengal48 Okay, I am starting to understand the point. If I am going to invest in replacement soil, it needs to be done as either a raised bed or as a planter above the ground. You can treat the current soil with top dressing, and that's a separate topic.