I totally hate them and would set them on fire if I could. I'm sorry but this made me laugh. Mtn had some good questions/thoughts. In looking at your pictures on my PC this morning (so larger) and reading through responses/questions, I had a couple more things to say. I can see a patio further from the house, close to the play area, but don't you already have a paver patio back there? I think if it were me and I had children, a place to sit near the play area would be nice. But what I would do rather than add a patio is to make a fire pit area. A nice one with some pavers or pea-gravel around it and place for 2 - 4 chairs. You and Mr. Robo could relax there while the babe is playing. Maybe spending some of the budget on having someone come out and do a plan for the beds would be a good idea. It sounds like you really do not enjoy the care of the beds and shrubs so they could plan easy care plants. If it were me (and everyone knows my love of my space an privacy, I would want something along at least the back property line to increase privacy. I may have missed it, but do you use the space under the deck for anything?

If you want ease of care, for now, remove the word "perennials" from your vocabulary. They are like jewelry. You want to spend your money on big, comprehensive structural elements. Start with the bones, you can always add plants. Figure the hardscape and grading issues out first . . .

Plus, you don't want to plant things around stuff you would be so much better off tearing out and starting over with. Do that now, rather than later . . . ask me how I know . . .

One more issue, sounds like you and hubs decided to stay? Because that's why you would invest so much in a project like this. Or are you just looking to tweak. That would lead to two different ways of approaching the problems.

Edited to add that a fire pit does not have to be built in. Waste of money, IMHO. You already have that little patio, just put a metal fire pit on it. Can always be stored away when not in use. Here's ours. We have a new space for it in our new house.

There are two approaches. Years ago, I was advised on the Landscape forum by a professional, "Don't put tinfoil on a turd, it's still going to be a turd." Sometimes you have to, but be very careful. Don't settle for a landscape designer who does that. A landscape architect might be more what you need. Or someone who can put that hat on. You don't really need plant advice at this point . . . or a dramatic overhaul of the flat parts . . . It's the house-grade interface that should be the focus.

I'm even wondering about just hiring a remodeling architect. They might know the decking, stairs, grading, doors, etc. issues.

Also edited to add, that if you could put a door in the family room where you have the stairs leading out to the backyard in your new plan, that would increase your habit of going directly outside to the yard. But if there are grade issues inside . . . . I'm still not clear on that . . .

Staying or going: Staying. Unless a miracle happens. Emmett got into the school district we wanted so we are now free to stay. Moving would cost us about 50K CAD in realtor fees, moving, lawyer, taxes so that's my budget for the yard. Our housing market has gone cuckoo bananas like every other market, so it would be extremely difficult to find anything even almost as nice as our house in a better neighbourhood sub $1million. Yeah we'd profit on our house but to upgrade we'd have to dig deep.

Perennial beds: The biggest problem with the huge beds is they're totally infested with goutweed which is the cockroach of the gardening world. Moving away is probably the best way to solve a goutweed problem. And, one of my neighbours is running a goutweed plantation which they allow to flower every year so even if I got rid of the rhizomes (almost impossible) it would still pop up.

Paver patios: The current paver patio would go away if I get my wish to eradicate some or all of the retaining wall because the land regrading would cover the patio. I could repurpose the blocks (move the whole thing closer to the house), or start with new blocks. If I did do a seating area in the lower yard it would probably be incorporated with the play area - so for example a nice bench on a pea gravel play area.

Shed: could stay or go - there is room under the deck where we could build a shed, but it's kind of full right now with snowblower, wheelbarrow, etc. We could probably downsize enough to make it work. I'd love to build a backyard suite for my auntie back there (legal) but my husband is not a huge fan of the idea.

Existing greenery: I have some great shrubs and trees I'll probably keep and/or relocate to the boundaries of the property - 3xcolumnar yews (taxus meridis), 2xjapanese maple, 2xhydrangea, 6xrhodo, 4xazalea, 1xweigela "wine and roses", 1xelkhorn cedar, 2x spreading yews 'Densi-gem.'

Greenery and privacy: There is no way to get privacy in the yard because we are so close together and our houses are set above the yards - so when my neighbours are on their decks they can see my whole yard, and vice versa. My son is a huge fan of both neighbour families and keeps tabs on them in a creepy toddler kind of way: "Look, Mommy, Larry is cooking supper for his friend!" When I'm on my deck I can carry on a conversation with at least five houses - fortunately we all get along. We could install a wood privacy fence and it might look nice, but wouldn't do much for privacy.

Access to the yard: I'd love to have a door off the back of the house - it is convoluted to get to the backyard now (well, through the kitchen and over the deck). My husband is TOTALLY AGAINST a patio door from the basement - not sure why. So we could do patio doors in the family room, which I think would be really nice, but he's not convinced.

Just for context here's the main floor layout...this may change as well after the backyard and top floor are done. I'd like to move laundry upstairs and punch the dining room through the laundry/powder area. But the back room will stay one big family room.

It's not what you want but I made my original quicky above mockup easier to understand. I like that you get an upper and lower patio/deck. To me the area under the upper deck could be so better utilized. I put artificial turf just near the under deck patio.

jterri that is a BEAUTIFUL mockup. I love the revised.

My next door neighbours have switchback stairs leading to the basement from the back of their home. So they get to have a deck off the landing of the switchback right in the back and it makes for a really nice height (maybe about 8 feet above their yard).

Thanks Robo, not so much revised as made cleaner and adding details that I didn't do at 11:30 at night with the other. This is what was it my head but most people can't find their way around in there lol.

ETA: don't be afraid of possibly moving a door or window. It's not as expensive or (usually) not as complicated as you think. I walk through this house every morning, a house I didn't love, and can't believe the joy it brings me now that I changed and resized the kitchen windows. I thought it would be a big deal to do since I have a concrete block and stucco home. it wasn't and was done so fast and well.

Although you don't like the bump out, remember, it is not encroaching on your interior space.

Ditto what JTL said. I've lived in two houses where windows were installed on blank walls. It's remarkable easy. One was our current house and it was brick!

One of the great things about JTL's vision is it requires relatively little regrading, and also no tearing down of original deck. It's just one vision, but it has some distinct advantages. But if you really hate the grade, of course that can be redone. But that, my friend, is NOT easy. Getting someone who knows how to do it right is crucial, not everyone who says they know does know. Engineering for snow and water drainage very important for stability and lifespan.

This is kind of what I've been thinking of since I talked to husband... cue the world's most amateurish mockup. Pull the deck back level with the house, rebuilt the retaining wall closer to the house, and do a grassy slope on the left (East) side.

Do I think it would be even better with doors out from the bottom floor? Yes 100%.

WRT to your AC (?) unit - to prevent people from banging shoulders, etc you might want to put a planter underneath or do something that will force people to walk out from it to avoid it.

Robo, does it get buggy in the spring and summer where you live?

It’s in the city so not too bad...better up on the high deck in the evenings.

Do you know anyone to ask informally what kinds of equipment would be needed to do the proper slope grading, and whether such equipment could get by either side of the house and into the back yard? If it all has to be done by hand (demo and install), it could be pricy. You could also consider pruning the existing shrubs at the right time to prepare them for transplanting if they are to be moved.

And a looney question if you don't mind. Have you thought about taking all the soil you have there now, at the various levels, (removing the walls that create the beds,) and then leveling it all out into one flat yard. You'd have to build some new steps from at least one side path, but an overall flat surface will be much easier to maintain, and much more flexible going forward, as well as increasing your property value (flat lots are usually more valuable than sloped). It would expose more of your foundation wall in the back, but that's where you could transplant some of those nice shrubs.

There is a 7 foot wide path down one side so I imagine a skid steer could get through.

Based on conversation with my husband we came up with a compromise where most of the yard will be flat and maybe a hill on one side.

I can see that being a good compromise. I think to have it all more or less flat you would need a retaining wall on the left so your neighbors properly wouldn't be affected ?

However, I would consider what a professional says. That back yard is prime real estate in the city. That's your money maker. Pretend you are going to sell when considering your choices.

I agree with JTL. Think of it more as adding an addition to your house. The plant parts are the least of it. As soon as my patio and yard became a pleasant place to hang out instead of a hot, windy, unprivate eyesore, we were eating out there almost every night. And enjoying morning coffee there and evening sitting on the swing after it cooled off, and watching birds out the kitchen window . . . Start with imagining the uses you could have and problems to solve, and design from there. Let the landscape architect worry about the logistics.

The sad part is, how it is would probably be quite a money maker because the raised beds look attractive when they are well-maintained and of course the previous owner put a lot of money into those retaining walls. I just really can’t keep on top of them and I hate clambering around in them as well. Plus I would like additional grassy area for the child and the large dog.

OK Ok I hear you about the privet! That does sound bad.

It will be interesting to see what the expert says. IME, it is not easy to change the slope of a yard, except by adding walls, and even then the drainage issues for you and for neighbors can be complex.

It's an exciting project and I'm sure whatever you do you will get a lot of use and enjoyment from it.

What I keep coming back to is that my neighbours on both sides have perfectly usable, lightly sloping yards . I would just like to return my yard to its natural state! But somehow it seems impossible.

Well that's encouraging, though, and it may very well be doable!

Yes, nothing wrong with a dramatic change. I really hemmed and hawed about tearing off my deck, it was the pride and joy of the previous owners, fairly new, and some people could not understand why I would tear down that expensive and nice feature. But boy, was it ever the right decision. It just didn't function for me in that setting, and I never regretted it. I was able to sell it to someone with a yard and small rancher, it was perfect for him. He even dismantled it for me . . .

Same with your raised beds. You can save and give away or sell the blocks, and any of the plants you like can be relocated or even given away.

And not to beat a dead horse, but there are gads of homes built on slopes around here due to it being the end of a glacier so full of hills and dales. The standard way to design a house like that is to cut it into the hill and open up the back bottom level to the back yard, with the retaining walls on the SIDES and a sliding door to a flat patio or deck on the back. Then gentle slope . . . Could also be gently terraced, but even in those cases, exit from back, patio or deck, then steps to yard. As pictured in inspiration photos . . .

Your yard can be regraded, but seriously search to find someone who knows what they are doing on this. There are a lot of guys out there who will just hop in a backhoe and start improvising without really knowing what they are doing. They will pop it all together but when the rains come, you will be astonished at what happens. Ask me how I know . . . that isn't to say that it can't be done and done properly, but VET your contractor and ask to see and visit examples of similar jobs. This is not plant-selection landscaping. This is construction and earth moving and drainage and grading, you need someone who knows about soil, drainage, and proper construction. Many people create on the surface and don't build it on a stable foundation. It looks nice when they leave and gives the home owner a lot of problems when they leave.

For example, the guys who installed the brick walkway next to my garage, graded it like a lower case "n" /convex. But it was right up against the garage wall on one side, so all of a sudden I had water leaking into my garage and water up against my wood garage side door. They just did the standard, which in a walk would be convex to drain water off the middle of the path so you don't get icy spots. HOWEVER, in my situation, with the garage on one side and a grassy spot on the other, the walk should have been slanted so the water ran off into the grassy area, not against the garage. They didn't stop to think or plan the walk, just installed the same old same old as they did everywhere. It looked fine and nice when they left, but when it rained, problem. The whole walk would have had to been totally redone/relaid to correct the problem. We just lived with it . . .

Attached bed I got a grant to create. A guy we dealt with didn't really know what he was doing he lacked expertise and experience in this kind of job. We finally just told the guy with the backhoe to leave, after he had to redo it twice. I had to spend a lot of time tweaking it. Thankfully, it was a natural hill so as the soil and rocks settled there was some place for the water and soil to land that didn't disturb anything too much . . .

Before. Doesn't show very well, but it's a big pile of fill and since it is blocking the drainage, the water was flowing down the adjacent path/steps and eroding them . . .

After. The rock ditch in the middle is for the runoff . . . thankfully a rain garden expert consulted with me for FREE to help figure it out. The natural vegetation is what will eventually hold in the soil and slow the water flow . . .

Bear in mind that regrading your yard will change the way water flows off of it. You don't want to create problems for those below you. The main reason this area I've pictured developed an erosion problem is they greatly increased the non-porous surface above the hill and handled the drainage by draining it all onto the "natural" area of the hillside, which wasn't natural at all, it was an abandoned gravel pit, so it had a steep unstable slope that started to erode like crazy . . .

Hey Robo, I hope you come back to let us know what the professional says regarding your slopes and such.

Some good ideas presented here....others not so great :-) But from a practical standpoint as a practicing landscape designer, I doubt you are going to get much of what you want for that budget. Any type of grading or hardscaping is going to eat that up very rapidly!

Garden gal that is very useful information! I can’t go up to 100k so I am worried about rebuilding the wall. We could reuse the materials there but they’re not the best color or quality (eg not self capped). My husband has close family connections to a manufacturer of landscape retaining walls so that should help with materials but not labour.

wall would be 4 feet by 20 feet by 10 so about 160 square feet. Patio would be about 12x10 so another 120 - we could use our existing stones for that. New deck would be 17x12 pressure treat with full switchback set of stairs (eight foot drop). And then a set of rock or paver stairs - probably eight of those.

fill from taking wall back could probably be used for grading the other half but you have to figure a few inches of nice topsoil (25 cubic yards maybe) on top of it all will cost as well as sod (1700sf).

our friend just went to put in a pool - last year his quotes were 80-100k - this year his first quote was 400k - so the construction boom and materials shortages are affecting everyone!

our other friend builds Condos/apartments and he said he can only get quotes from trades guaranteed for two weeks at a time.

Yikes Robo!

Yup - just heard again that the price of lumber has increased 400% in the last year. We need a new deck and our contractor and another person I know mentioned how much more expensive materials (composite decking) are so plan for a much more expensive deck and potentially a long wait. We will probably hold out for another year as long as it's still safe to use it.

Whoa! 😳

The covid supply shortages and everyone wanting a nicer domicile demand is real. :(

My son is a real estate developer who builds townhomes and the price of lumber, never mind the price of real estate, is driving up the prices of the homes.

We lost our house to a fire last September and the insurance company wants our house rebuilt fast.

This is where the quality and creativity of your landscape architect comes in to play. Can they creatively problem solve giving you the most bang for your buck. Think long and hard and spend the money on the items that will make the most significant difference. It's been my experience that plants can be filled in as time permits, but a good traffic flow and foundation is money well spent, both on installation and on someone with the proven track record of knowing how to do such things. Certain landscapers are just "common solutions to common problems" kind of folks, offering cookie cutter solutions. Nothing wrong with that, but your situation I think calls for someone with more experience dramatically overhauling a grade, structure, etc.

In my area most trades are unable to see you until fall even for quotes:(.

robo: Have you thought about cleaning up the yard as much as you can-maybe hire a gardener for a one time clean up, banking the 50k and saving up for a house more to your liking when things have calmed down in the RE market? I know when I try to fix something I don't like to start with it just ends up being a waste of time and money. YMMV

Lizbeth, yes, we’ve been sort of on the fence for a few years now! My husband and I haven’t found a single house we’ve both liked (and could afford) since about 2015. Our house is quite large and in good shape compared to most of the housing stock around us.

As far as weeds go, there are plenty of ways to remove existing weeds and one highly effective way of preventing new is to use Preen and good mulch. Beds do take some work but the work can be minimized and metal sheeting can be installed vertically underground as a barrier for traveling rhizomes between the yards.

Preen 6 month control, will prevent seed germination and can be used around existing plants.

bumblebee the plant is rhizomatous - roundup can kill it with repeated applications if you catch tender new growth but it definitely laughs at mulch. Some people have had success irradiating the soil by spreading black plastic over their entire infestation and letting it cook. I myself covered

my whole garden for two years with about 6 layers of cardboard and 6” of mulch but it came back with a vengeance.

If it's coming from your neighbor's yard, perhaps some type of buried physical border? I feel your pain. I have something called "creeping charlie" in my yard and the only way to stop it is by redoing the whole lawn area. I would suggest forgetting a bed of mixed perennials and going for small trees and shrubs and just zapping anything that grows under them asap, with roundup and pulling, preen and mulch. Get it while it is young. Will be a constant battle but at least with shrubs and small trees it will be easy to see it underneath and keep after it. You can always add some annuals or perennials in pots.

Yes that's why you need sheet metal in the ground

I was shocked to hear people mention Roundup. My gardeners here and in Maine will not go near the stuff. I know it has been banned in several countries as well as parts of the US. I'm not usually a worrywart but IME the industry can usually stave off claims for a while and then at some point everyone comes around and finally says "oh yeah this is bad stuff." YMMV

I am a conservation scientist and use glyphosate with the requisite safety measures. I don't spray it around willy nilly. It is an excellent way to stop a weed infestation in the bud, when you apply it early when plants are young and in a concentrated area. It saves ecosystems when used properly because it does break down and because you can target it to just certain weeds. We use sponges and small spray bottles to apply it directly to plants, that's how it works best anyway, so it stays concentrated on just the area you are treating and most is absorbed by the plant you are intending to kill. It works best on very young or cut plants, spraying it on established weeds will probably not achieve the control you want and with a plant that spreads by runners, won't kill the whole system, so I'm only suggesting it on small babies that are starting to invade all over again. You should stay out of treated area for at least a day. It breaks down quickly so actually the direct application is the correct way to use it. Roundup and other weed killers are an important conservation tool. They are not to be blasted all over the yard in the hopes of killing weeds, which is mostly ineffective but also wasteful, though, that is how people most often use them.

I'm not suggesting broadcasting roundup. I'm suggesting that once you have an area under control, you can spot treat individual infestations with roundup. But sure, pull them out if you prefer. Or use one of the "natural" weed killers which are just as toxic and could burn adjacent plants if also not applied properly. They also won't work on an established plant with runners, they will kill some of the plant but whatever is left will start the whole mess over again. A plant with runners needs a strong systemic herbicide to kill the whole mass. One that breaks down. Very tricky, so I recommend mechanical control until you get the area back. You have to be vigilant.

Edited to add that mechanical control (pulling or digging out) on a plant that spreads by runners is largely ineffective. If you break off even the smallest bit of a root, you will only stimulate more plant growth. That's why people use systemic herbicides on such plants, so that it can get down into the roots/rhizomes (underground stems).. But you must be very careful, or you can kill adjacent plants. Such herbicides are only used to get an area under control. After that, you have to be constantly vigilant to make sure no babies get a foothold. You're going to release far less toxins if you directly zap a tiny starter than try and pull out an established mass. So it depends on where you are in the battle.

I am clearing about a quarter acre right now that is infested with muscadine, honeysuckle and poison ivy and I'm not too sure how people would do it without the use of systemic brush killers. In some places the vines are a solid 2 in thick.

I've cleared such places by hand, dug and pulled out all of the plants you describe. But once cleared, if you want to keep them clear, you have to stay on top of the battle and remove any little babies that get a foothold.

The most important point for Robo is, your landscape designer should keep your goutweed challenge in mind and design a system that is naturally going to lend itself to mitigation and prevention. If they can't speak to that and the other issues, keep looking . . .

The infestation is coming both by rhizomes but also by plants my neighbours allow to flower every year - so the rhizomes make it hard to get rid of and the seeds make it hard to keep out.

roundup is also verboten here but it is legit one of the only ways to control goutweed. if you’ve never tried to get rid of it - it can drive the most dedicated organic gardener to the poison aisle or to the realtor. Mowing can keep it to a dull roar hence my plans to get rid of perennial beds.

We use roundup sparingly and carefully (gloves, etc.)

Yeah, I always find it telling when something is banned in Europe and or Canada... for me, 'nuff said.

When I used Roundup I always painted rather than sprayed. Those days are gone for us here in Canada. I think the invasives might be winning. It's one of the reasons why I garden primarily in planters and big pots.

What about goats? Only marginally joking. Plus I love goats...

It's not banned totally in Canada, it's not sold over the counter and its use is highly restricted. But since Robo isn't going to use it on her lawn, discussion becomes moot. Sorry I brought it up. Just trying to address the goutweed issue.

No, it was quite interesting to learn more about it, Pink. Like most things, it is a complex story. But based on what you've said, I certainly would never use it as a layperson and if the people working for me don't want to use it I respect that.

Hopefully you won't mind this slightly OT post Robo, a friend just posted this on FB this PM. A little levity for the situation?

Caption: "Just built this new deck. $800 worth of lumber."

Nooooo kidding hahaha!

The landscape designer has come back with a quote for proposal so I think we will give her a shot!