Wow! That's a lot of information.

Back around 1994-95, John Elsley, who was the horticulturist at Wayside Gardens at the time, spoke at a Huntington Symposium. His talk introduced Sharifa Asma and Bibi Mezoon, and one of the points of the talk was the original plants they received from Austin were all budded on Manetti. He said they grew very well, but when they got large, a strong wind blew every one of the plants over. Manetti is notorious for developing "carrot root", where there are few side roots, and primarily a large, carrot shaped tap root. He said they'd all developed that carrot root and had to be staked up against the wind.

From what I understand, Manetti has been most useful as a florist root stock because it performs well in pots and was found particularly responsive to bottom heat, enabling the forcing of blooms during colder seasons and less sun. Kim

Older article, but very informative. Thanks for posting that!

My 'Black Bacarra' is on Manetti. When I moved it, it didn't have a tap root, but it still leans...plant gets tall and top heavy.

I really want to try a few roses on Fortuniana. I dream of a vigorous 'Purple Tiger'...

What are copyright laws? I see no "quotes," no credit to the author or the publisher, etc. Have a look at the thread linked below for a crash course. The written word has been protected for much longer than photos.

Here is a link that might be useful: Just spent hours on Paul Barden's web site

Why is R. canina no longer being used?

Has anyone in North America tried using it for rootstock?

It (canina) is still used (not often) in Europe but Laxa is used more often, having the same faults as manetti - an enormous taproot, resistant to transplanting. Bierkreek claim canina gives a better, longer lived plant with greater depth of colour.

Canina or laxa has the taproot?

The one fatality of the roses I ordered from Eurodesert, Montana, had just such a taproot. It might have been originally an import from Europe. I believe it died, not from any fault on Cliff's part, but because it spent too much time in transit across the country.

Article is from Santa Clarita Rose Society website:

Author: Info. was compiled by Kitty Belendez

Thanks for the very interesting article and for the citation.

I have noticed over the years that the Santa Clarita Rose Society has frequently supplied really good information.

Rosefolly

Plagiarism and copyright infringements egregiously trample the principles of individual freedom and intellectual property rights which are the basic tenets and strengths of our economy. And why, I believe, they are unlawful.

Copyrighted works normally require "express written permission" for republication as well as royalties when required or requested.

One of the nicest things about the internet is its accessibility compared to hard print.
If an article is available on the internet, GardenWeb makes it easy to share it with others while avoiding copyright issues by means of the URL text boxes beneath the main text box of one's post. When posted, these boxes unite to present the "Here is a link that might be useful: _____________ display in posts.

We may direct folks to articles or other information this way and the web author gets the appropriate traffic, public exposure, acknowledgment, etc.

To do so:
When posting have the reference webpage open,
Click to highlight the http:// address bar in its entirety,
Right click the mouse and from the popup menu select "copy."
Then place the cursor in the Optional Link URL text box of your post,
Right click the mouse and select paste from that menu.
(Note that there are other ways to copy and paste. I'm just attempting to help)

The name in the Name of the Link text box in the case of an article would normally be the name of the article.

I did this last week in my post titled 'Seeing both sides' for the updated Santa Clarita Valley Rose Society article on this topic, 'Back to Your Roots' in the below linked thread.

Here is a link that might be useful: Own Roots, Soil, and Fertilizer in Florida

??

"Plagiarism and copyright infringements egregiously trample the principles of individual freedom and intellectual property rights which are the basic tenets and strengths of our economy. And why, I believe, they are unlawful. "

Not to get into it but if there's something wrong with posting the information, the offended party can contact the offender and request that the post be removed.

And then the question is whether the not-for-profit organization, which the rose society in question is, has a real interest in keeping its information proprietary. Many hobbyist not-for-profit organizations like rose societies have, as part of their charter, a mission to educate and spread information. It's hard to see how preventing use of some of the very information they want to circulate will somehow further that mission.

Moreover, while infringement depends on the act of copying and not on actual harm, it's mitigated by the facts that there is actually no harm as there was not going to be any license fee charged for the work and there was no commercial intent on the part of the poster.

Paul's issue is completely different, in that as far as I know he is using all of his work for commercial purposes and the use to which it was put was also for commercial purposes.

I've sent notice on behalf of clients who have copyrighted works, but in this case I don't see what the problem is, particularly since the source is now cited (and the post doesn't appear to be the entire article anyway). Anyhow, it was an interesting article.

Nastarana, Laxa has more of a tendency to throw a big chunky single root whereas canina appears to be a much more fibrous specimen. I am indebted to Michaelg for this info.

Brad Templeton's article is one of the best I've seen on the net on copyright issues.

Melissa

Here is a link that might be useful: 10 Big Myths about copyright explained

Sorry if anyone was "offended" by my lack of appropriate post protocol. I'll make sure to post similar information "legally" next time.

Lee

Maybe 12 years ago, I wrote the article linked below. The 3. at the end is a foornote to the 3 after susceptibility.

George Mander "has made arrangements with a wholesale rosegrower, Jan Verschuren, to graft his budwood on R. canina. Jan prefers R. canina currently. R. canina is what was used there before WW2. The original canina was notorious for suckering. There are new canina selections since then. R. canina cv. "Inermis" is the most widely used variety. Much less suckering takes place, but it still suckers. R. canina cv."Heinsohn's Rekord" is regarded as the very best for Hybrid Teas (Jan agrees out of experience). R. corymbifera cv. "Laxa" or R. dumetorum cv. "Laxa" is more and more being grown on Europe's mainland. It was always used as a rootstock for Great Britain only. Because it suckers little and is, therefore, a cheaper way of growing roses, the mainland now also grows more and more on Laxa. However, Laxa is not as winterhardy as R. canina. For treeroses, R. canina cv. "Pfander" is the best one (his family has a well established R. canina cv."Pfander" weeping treerose of The Fairy in their garden at home surviving at some -24 degrees C unprotected, its budunion up in the air). Cheap fast production for big box stores has opened a market for multiflora cutting rootstocks for treeroses in Holland, but they have little winterhardiness. He also points out that R. multiflora is softer and the grafts a little more likely to be weak during the first year (Brad had one of George's Canadian White Star break right at the bud union; it can happen in a strong wind). Multiflora is much faster in production, but has a shorter lifespan than canina. Brad's experience is roses grafted on R. canina suckered freely and didn't produce as many basal shoots as R. multiflora or own-root roses. However, Jan points out that multiflora was shipped to Sweden because they had guaranteed snow cover in their winters. All other parts never wanted multiflora because of its frost susceptibility 3. Obviously, there is great debate going on here concerning the relative merits of various rootstocks."

"3. This has always been a hot topic for Jan. Another former local grower here lost his crop on multiflora when temperatures went down to minus 24 degrees C. "I should have put more straw on" was his thinking... Jan hills up his budunions in fall and sleeps easy, even with minus 24. In his opinion, multiflora is never as winterhardy as R. canina selections are. As his father mentioned when he said to him that all growers use multiflora in Canada. " What?! Are they backward there?" The name Verschuren is closely related to rosegrowing in Holland. They are rootstock specialists. They produce seed, stratify and produce rootstock (about 6,000,000/ yr); and are only a medium size rootstock grower! Combined with Germany and the huge rosegrowers, competition is immense. Out of the competition, the best emerges because of the scale in which things are done there. The scales are different in Canada: here, rose production is done on a hobbyfarm basis.
Multiflora is easy to grow; that is why it is used here; that is Jan's conclusion. When he met Otto Palleck, the just retired Ontario rosegrower, Palleck said, "What? You grow on canina? That is the best rootstock there is, but we cannot get No.1 quality here...." That was most likely not his only problem, as seed germination with canina requires 2 years of stratifying. Brian Minter told Jan initially when he started out doubtfully here with canina rootstock, "Do the best you can and grow the best product possible, and you will succeed" Now, Jan has customers who are coming back raving to buy more. His treeroses did not blink their eyes at the cold last winter."

Here is a link that might be useful: A Visit with B.C. Rosemen

Lee - thank you so much for the great article! I was searching for that kind of information years ago - when I first realized that some of the roses in my garden were probably originally rootstock. Here are some that either were growing in my garden when we moved in or have come up since then:

de la Grifferaie
Fortuniana
odorata
eglantine
Dr. Huey (of course)
that one that's all letters (ILX..?) that looks like Vielchenblau
Dawson's apple blossom

The neat thing for me is that, other than Dr. Huey which I eradicate each time I see it, I LOVE these roses! I like them so much better than the boring, one color scions (usually but not always tree roses planted from the 1930s thru the 1970s) that were there before! Fortuniana blooms really early here - I have it in one place next to and climbing with Vielchenblau and the combination of these early blooming roses is lovely. In another place it is climbing with "Dawson't apple blossom" up my crab apple tree. These old roses popping up made me more interested in learning about old roses, and now my garden is full of old teas and chinas as a consequence.

We like de la Grifferaie so much that we have just built it a rose climbing structure, because of course it came up in a bed where there was nothing to climb on.

I don't have 'Ragged Robin', but that is another old rootstock that is an amazing rose.

I like to think that it's even possible that some of these marvelous old roses are still with us only because they were used as rootstock during the period when only modern hybrid teas were in fashion.

Jackie