Mary, my experience has shown that the ones most cooperative in being bent "against sunlight" are those with greater multiflora, Wichurana and Moschata influence. The Lens hybrid Multifloras, what we tend to term 'Hybrid Musks", are strongly Multiflora genetically. That species throws itself into trees when grown in an under story situation, pushing its flowering stems out into the sun where they hang down, with gravity. Wichurana itself, and those closely resembling it, as well as the climbing musk types, such as Secret Garden, which is apparently based upon Moschata, instead of Multiflora (the Hybrid Musk class is), also flower on downward hanging wood.

The more European OGR and the more modern rose (HT, floribunda, etc.) the rose has in its character, the less likely it is to flow its sap down hill and maintain those downward hanging parts. Many ramblers which perform like Wichurana, complete with the flexible canes, spring or summer flowering only, will tolerate being trained in downward positions. My experience is harder wooded Wichurana types, such as Dr. Van Fleet, New Dawn and their like, will not flow their sap into downward hanging wood, though the species from which they were derived will. The harder, stiffer the wood on a climber, the less likely it is to maintain downward hanging wood.

Sally Holmes was bred from Ballerina and Ivory Fashion. Ivory Fashion will not flow sap downhill. Ballerina is close to multiflora and will grow and flower with gravity, against the sun, as will Sally Holmes. Moschata will, and so will Secret Garden.

The ORGs which are more upright, stiff wooded, tend not to flow their sap down hill. Those which form more arching, lax growth, tend to be more cooperative to being trained to grow down hill. Most roses will grow parallel to the ground, but those more closely resembling the Wichurana, multiflora and Moschata species growth have shown themselves to be the most cooperative with being trained 'down hill'.

I have noticed that certain roses just hate having canes trained downwards. For those roses, the canes will die. However, I have not personally observed any that object to being trained horizontally or at any semi-vertical angle. Unlike Kim, I have not paid much attention to the ancestry of roses that have this difficulty.

Rosefolly

Mary, Reine des Violettes shouldn't have had issues with being tied vertically or upward. I'm wondering if either the canes which demonstrated the die back from where tied either got kinked when molding them to the shape of the obelisk; perhaps absorbed extra heat or cold from the obelisk if it was metal; or the sisal was tied too tightly, possibly damaging the cambium under the bark? Kim

Hi Kim,

I was amazed. Because the dying wasn't always from the tips - on some canes it happened where the cane met sisal - I'm pretty sure the dieback is due to the tying process. The process seemed fine at the time. The attachments were loosey goosey, and the canes showed no damage where they actually touched metal. But where the damage occurred (when it wasn't starting from a tip). it happened where the plant contacted sisal that was *very* loosely tied in a figure-8 loop that often was huge. Some of the loops were 6-8 inches long. Now I'm thinking that Loosey Goosey sisal attachments might not be such a great method.

We had an usually (very) windy day a couple of weeks ago and I've wondered whether that might have created some unusually strong rubbing that could have done something. On the other hand, every year there are some very windy days... and nothing like this ever happened to our Cornelia. It was tied up with that same sisal all over the place in the same kind of loose figure 8's. (Though it was pegged and closer to the ground. I'm sure the Cornelia would still be there, happy as a lamb, except for Rose Rosette Disease.)

No canes got kinked during the tying process or later that I'm aware of, though my husband did help me some and I wasn't paying good attention to everything he did. He is a lot more used to tying tomato vines than roses.

Reine des Violettes will still work well in that spot now without being tied up; the surrounding roses have succumbed to Rose Rosette Disease so there's plenty of lateral space for it. I haven't cut off the blackened dieback parts yet but I know I'll have to, at least on those that are dying back from the tips. I do think I need to learn something here to help avoid this from happening again.

I got the idea of using sisal from my rose book "The Organic Rose Garden" by Liz Druitt, and I'm assuming her roses have seen some heavy winds in their days too. Still, I'm beginning to think about using a different tying material in the future.

Thanks so much for your help, Kim.

Best wishes,
Mary

Hi Mary, I guess high winds might be able to cause potential bruising of the cambium through the bark, if conditions were server enough. Who knows? Perhaps your Reine des Violettes has sensitive skin as I do? I can't wear synthetic fibers, only cotton. Perhaps she can only "wear" stretchy plant tape and not sisal? It works best here, not girdling the canes, nor rotting out from moisture or ultra violet/heat.

Cornelia should handle being trained downward. It has enough multiflora in it and flowers on downward hanging wood. That's really all I can think to suggest. It does seem as if something really odd is at work here, but I'm at a loss to come up with anything else at this point. Good luck with the RRD and this issue. I don't envy you. Kim

I've had serious problems from too loose tying with other plants. I think what happens is that they get sort of a running start within the loop, then hit the loop and it acts like running into a clothesline. Tighter ties, like they say you should do, solve the problem.

One that will not handle being pulled downward is Mme Isaac Pereire.
I self-pegged that rose years ago, turning into something like a giant mushroom. (This was a MISERABLE task.)

It rewarded me initially with terrific blooming laterals all along the upper half of those canes. Then, when the flush faded, it commenced to die back.

Every single cane died back to the highest point of the arch. I had to prune all of them back beyond that point -- whereupon most of them continued the process of dying back.

That winter, we shovel-pruned the miserable thing. Plagued by downy mildew and powdery mildew through the year, and rust in the fall, and blooming only it its higher reaches.

Jeri

I have long suspected that my Climbing Pinkie and my Zephrine D have cane die-back as a result of being tied (I use natural jute). Other roses that I tie, such as Rev d'Or, Prosperity, Cadenza, and Red Cascade don't have that problem. Of course, I may be completely wrong about the cause of the die-back.
Molly

mmm strange! I have seen many shrubs which have been tied tightly, damaging the cambium but, unless the girdling proceeds all around the stem, plants will hang on with less than a quarter of the original cambium....and will generally callous over to make a hard woody knob. I have actually frozen stems against metal supports and have seen some awful damage done by continual rubbing, as Mad Gallica points out. I now use old tights for ties - they are smooth, stretchy and do not break - I even keep a few dark green pairs after being offended by the glaring shocking pinks I used a couple of years ago.

Mme Isaac Periere is pegged in the Sacramento Cemetery and does great. The tips that point straight down abruptly do die back a bit, but the canes overall do fine, and it's extraordinary when all of the laterals pop along the canes and the rose is covered in bloom. I got the idea from Liz Druitt's book - her influence is far-reaching! Pegging this rose is not much work after getting the original shape in place - we cut out a few old, sun-burned canes every year, tie in the new ones, and trim the laterals. Voila!

I have noticed some canes that have been tied that seem to die as a result, and others that have been nearly cut in two by over-tight ties that do fine. We mostly use strips of nylons (tights), although they've fallen out of fashion here in California and used stockings are at a premium.
Anita

stockings do as well - just slice across the leg to make a continuous loop. Stockings though! You Californians, what are you like? Do you have suspender belts (remember those) too? Frilly garters?

Suzy, there may be Californians using all sorts of exotic garter belts and other seductive underwear, but not me, and I'd be surprised if any others in my increasingly geriatric gardening crowd do so. Most of my fellow gardeners are retired from their day jobs, and have sworn never to wear another pair of panty-hose in our lives. Some still wear knee-high sheer stockings, which are the source of most of our rose ties. I'm in the "nylons will never touch my body again" camp and wear sensible socks, preferably wool.

Young California women go bare-legged, even if dressed in business attire. Sometimes they wear opaque tights (we only call them tights if they are thicker and not sheer). Older women mostly wear pants (a la Hillary Clinton). I can't speculate what they are wearing underneath, but it's not something to support old-fashioned sheer stockings!

It really is hard to find people to donate worn nylons to the cemetery rose garden. When I was going through my mother's things, I was very excited to find an entire drawer of them. Talk about inheriting a treasure! I've even resorted to buying "vintage" panty-hose on eBay, figuring a dollar a pair was no more expensive than most garden ties.
Anita

I really don't get this no-nylons thing. As a very pale woman who does not tan, and liking to wear dresses and skirts from time to time, I think that there are times when some kind of nylon or pantyhose can be a woman's friend. As the mother of two twenty-something daughters, I know that the younger crowd in California never wear them at all. But honestly, bare legs when dressed up? Maybe with an expensive spray tan, but that seems awfully silly to me.

And the bonus of having the ruined ones for my garden is a very nice benefit indeed.

Rosefolly

um, I suspect revealing my knees would be classed as a crime against humanity. Corduroys for me. What is dressing up? Weddings and funerals maybe, the rest of the time, I have discovered my inner slob.

I no longer reveal my knees, either, after discovering that they are discolored from calluses from all of that kneeling in the garden (it might be ground-in-dirt,too, but I do try to scrub it off). I wear jeans, not cords.

Rosefolly is right that the 20-somethings invest in spray tans to get the right bare-legged look. Think of the money that we slobs save by not getting manicures or spray tans or any of a number of other cosmetic treatments that would last about ten minutes out in the garden.

Anybody who wants to send me their ruined tights/stockings/nylons are welcome to do so! We use them to hang tags on the roses, and have about 500 of them to get in place before our Open Garden in April.
Anita

Stockings though! You Californians, what are you like? Do you have suspender belts (remember those) too? Frilly garters?

Thong underpants, I'm afraid. That's what we're like. ;)

I do still wear pantyhose, when I wear dresses, unless it is too hot (90 degrees F +) in the daytime, when I would be wearing a sleeveless cotton dress with sandals anyway. My husband takes all of my run pantyhose to use as lint filters for our clothes washing machine. Since I retired, I have barely been able to provide enough for that. So, when I needed some for the garden (to pull up a sideways Duchesse de Brabant bush), I had to go out and buy them! I do not really mind - I lived in them 5 days a week for 30 years, so that was enough.

Jackie

There is a great seller on the big site for auction style sales that has the classic stockings with the seams or dots or just plain for all of you who like them. I wear them with my hoop dresses for victorian/ civil war. Corsets are fabulous fun too.

OK what I really use to tie up roses is green strips of t shirt knit. I train one of my M. Issac P.s low but do it in an odd way. First I tie all the canes to bamboo that I want to lower and then I tie the bamboo+rose cane to a bamboo piece that I have stuck in the ground. I don't let them point down. They are sort of approaching horizontal and the tall annuals hide all the scaffolding. This takes all afternoon to do but the result is pretty and I get lots of flowers. Right after the spring show, the canes are released from the bamboo and get a trim. I have not had die back problems so far but as I say, they are bent just enough to get the blooms to come on along most of the cane but not brought that low. It looks hideous until the other plants fill in and the rose is blooming and it is so much work that I say every year I will stop because I have two others that I train as a climber and a big bush. I really need to give that space up to plant something from the pot village and it is very difficult to step around all the bamboo to weed or anything. This will probably be the last year.

My sombreuil ( the white climber sold as that not the true Sombreuil) will die back whenever a cane points down.

I have a Jasmina in a crepe myrtle tree that loves to hang her stems and blooming clusters down. This is a rose that took at least 4 years to get going but now it is very pretty indeed. Its romantic looking and the tree does not seem to mind at all. The very competitive tree roots have not slowed the rose down. More than anything, it looks like I will have to control the growth of the Jasmina so it does not overtake the tree.

I would like to try this again in my peach tree but with something not so thorny so I can still prune my peach. Any suggestions?

I am going to the local fruit show soon and plan to buy a box of nylon footies to cover apple blooms as they mature to keep out insects. Since I now own 5 apple trees I have to learn to do apple battle.

I usually have used green velcro plant tape to tie rose canes because it's easy to take the tape out and re adjust. Maybe I'll give the footies a try though as plant ties too. I think they're fairly inexpensive and prob are about the right length.

Hoovb, you crack me up! Campanula, no such frippery up here - more like Chili pepper long johns!

Kitty, I hope you'll post a picture of your MIP in her bamboo-bloom hoop skirt. The show must be spectacular.

Kitty, I presume you live where they'd be appropriate, but if you want total freedom from prickles on climbers with perfectly reliable repeat and excellent fragrance, which LOVE to flower on downward hanging wood, check out Ralph Moore's Renae.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.5185

Or, a bit stiffer with larger, more double, more OGR feeling, my Annie Laurie McDowell. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Annie Laurie McDowell

I have a large cane on crepuscule that's flopping forward, and I'm trying to train it over a structure. If I slowly pull it back up and over the structure, does anyone know how crepuscule will respond? I was getting ready to do this when I happened on this post, but now I'm not so sure.

I think that Crepuscule wouldn't mind at all. It blooms all along the canes.

I need to go to the dollar store and buy some cheap panty hose for tying my roses. Since I stopped wearing hose 10 years ago, I have been using my jute, but I did prefer the hose....nice and stretchy and gentle on the canes!
Molly

Reine des Violettes gets pegged every other year or so when I have the energy. I have been using u shaped wire stomped into the ground. The more elastic option seems worth trying, thanks!
Eden gets tied with jute horizontally, Col White gets zig zagged at an upwards 75 degree angle.
My beloved MIP came down with RRD and its' replacement is getting big enough to try some horizontal attention this year.
Footies sounds great!
Foghorn
IAGL

Here is a link that might be useful: Pegging Roses