Isn't R. Moschata supposed to be very old, like the 1500's?

HMF doesn't even say how old it is haha but I have been looking and I found the Double Musk and the Hildesheim Rose

I would presume that some of the species roses have to be millions of years old - you would have to look for info on fossils of roses that have been found...

Jackie

What about Damask 'Sancta'? "Evidence of this rose was found in the Egyptian tombs of the Second to Fifth Centuries A.D.," according to a l'Hay publication of 1910.

The species roses are the oldest around. R moschata is a species rose, so it would be one of them.

I read recently that the Romans grew gallicas, though what specific sorts I have no idea. With their keen interest in agriculture and their growing of roses for production, I would imagine they selected for quality. Who knows if any of their varieties survived the chaos of the collapse of the empire.

Rosefolly

I believe Old Blush is thought to be very, very old, perhaps even close to a thousand years, although it didn't reach Europe until the 1700's.

Ingrid

The accompanying link brings you to a picture of roses on an ancient Roman mural in the House of Livia, Rome, dating to 30 - 20 BC. Has anyone gathered images of roses as represented in Roman, or other ancient, art? It would be interesting to compare and contrast them, and try to figure out what they represent.

Here is a link that might be useful: Roses on the Mural in the House of Livia, Rome

Odinthor that photo is beautiful! I think I am gonna have to get the Cabbage rose.. I have been looking at it for a few months now :)... The only thing I found on Sancta what this http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.2347.5

Jackie fossils of roses... I never heard of that!

Rosefolly that would be something to look into so see if any of them did survive. Maybe they did and the people who made the empire fall took them and renamed them...

Jessica,

What an interesting question. I can supply dates from my database, if that would help. This may be a bit sketchy, but it should be fun. I welcome corrections.

The earliest dated rose in my database from the 15th century:

Cuisse de Nymphe.

Late 16th century and early 17th century:

Conditorum, circa 1588 and Four Seasons Rose of Paestum at 1633.

18th century:

Mutabilis before 1732 and Charles de Mills at 1790 and Old Blush 1793.

Discovered in the 19th century but presumably older:

Fortune's Double Yellow, discovered by Robert Fortune in 1845.

Best,

Larry

Rosefolly -- Fascinating about the Romans and their Gallicas.

Ingrid old blush is beautiful and if it did only reach Europe until then it must be old.

Rosa Mundi, the variegated sport of the Apothecary rose is very old too although not as old as the Apothecary rose itself. The old Pickering catalogs used to state year of introduction perhaps they still do. I used to scan down the list of old roses to get this information. It was quick to find.

Cath

For those interested in rose history, Brent Dickerson has written a nice synopsis.

Here is a link that might be useful: OLD ROSE HISTORY AND SYNOPSIS by Brent C. Dickerson

The oldest one I've ever found is the alba, Great Maiden's Blush, which HMF dates as "before 1400". It's also the one with the most names I've ever found at 32 aliases.

The age of discovery/introduction into written [Western] literature is not the same as the age of the rose. Roses like R. Moschata, Old Blush, the Apothecary are older than our records of them. And undoubtedly the Romans--and probably the Greeks, Persians, Chinese--had cultivars that have died out.

Catspa,

Of necessity, every rose exists before its date of introduction. The date of introduction is the earliest recorded date found to date. It is possible that another culture, for example, the Chinese had cultivars named before the western date of introduction and we have not yet connected them with the western name. However, the Chinese were much more enchanted with the peony than with the rose. It is the westerners who were enchanted with the rose.

Cath

I just googled "fossils of roses", and found several articles - bottom line, they have found fossils of roses (species, of course) all over the world, oldest date from 35 - 50 MILLION years ago.

Jackie

Uh oh! I meant "Catsrose" not "Catspa" sorry I confused you two. I only figured it out when the hardiness zones seemed to conflict.

Cath

Thanks everyone sorry I haven't posted sooner but I was reading articles and researching all of those and then some :)