That is great Carol. Mine from Chalk Hill should be arriving this week sometime. Can't wait to see what I get.

Which one was the one that they aren't sending?

I just recieved mine from Chalkhill..Murray is great about not sending them out if he feels they aren't mature enough to be sold...they also stand behind their plants and either refund or replace them..I've NEVER been dissatisfied with either them or their plants...Jeanne

I can't say the same Jeanne. Carol has similarly had issues with some plants she has received from Chalk Hill.

Jeanne, Miguel is right. The first clems I received from Chalk Hill were stellar plants, the second order had some good ones and two that had very small root systems and were sitting very loosely in their pots. They did not die and just required extra care and attention until they were established. If I had not received such beautiful plants in the first order, I probably wouldn't have been quite as disappointed. I agree that they are very nice and their plants are normally quality plants. The plants plus shipping to my area are costly and I don't want to have to baby such expensive plants! Things happen at all nurseries and I am not one to complain to them and certainly not about them unless I have a problem that they are unwilling to resolve and that certainly isn't the case with Chalk Hill. :-)

Miguel, the plant too small to ship was Fujimusume. I substituted Mrs. P. B. Truax. The others in my order are Bill MacKenzie, Blekitny Aniol, Sir Trevor Lawrence, Prince Charles, Gillian Blades and Soldertlje.

Carol

Oh I will agree that their Clematis are expensive because of the shipping I bought 3 and they cost me 81 dollars with shipping...BUT, I got some I couldn't find at other places..Last Spring I ordered "Cassis" and "Guernsey Cream" and Murray had hired some new people and they grabbed some from the wrong area that he was growing out..I immediately emailed him with a pic and told him I thought the roots too immature and was worried..He immediately offered me a refund and I said let me see how they do as I don't want a refund but the clematis instead..he said he would gladly resend me new clematis FREE of charge and I said let's wait and see how they do for me...He emailed me about 2 weeks ago to check up on my situation and will be sending me a new "Cassis"..."Guernsey" had done well..but "Cassis" wilted and I've still not seen him come back..I don't mind spending a premium for hard to find Clematis but want the Vendor to guarantee and stand by their word and Murray is that man...I've also had the same situation with GardenCrossings and they will send a new clematis free of charge..and Dan at Brushwood of course..those are the ONLY 3 that have backed their clematis for me...Jeanne

My Cassis from Park's wilted and never came back too. Wasn't replaced. They did not honor the credit I had from last year's order on this years either. Never buying from them again. The credit was for plants that arrived dead and rotten. There were dead and rotten plants in this year's shipment too.

That is my only mail order Clematis experience. All of the rest of mine have been purchased locally.

You are purchasing from the wrong online purveyors of clematis BorS. Parks has always had a horrible reputation in my opinion.

BorS, you seem to find such a wonderful selection of clematis locally that you probably don't need to do mail order. I'm always amazed at the clematis you find. They sell very few varieties here.

I got a notice that Chalk Hill had shipped my plants, so they should be here soon! I'm hoping for plants to match the first set I ordered from them in both size and root system.

Carol

Carol, I talked to Murray via email yesterday. He says that they have switched their planting media to a mixture "of sand, volcanic rock, vermiculite and some organic materials. It is designed for root development, is extremely moisture retentive to keep roots moist and cool and is designed to naturally break away when the plant is taken out of the pot." He went on to say "One of the great myths about clematis is that they dont like having their roots disturbed. That can be a problem for an established plant in the ground but not for the plant from a nursery pot going into the ground. Here I quote the greatest of clematis authorities Magnus Johnson in an interview with Dr. John Howells where is asked to comment on the commonest errors made by amateurs in growing clematis he says "Before planting I recommend washing all the old soil away from the roots and to cut away old and bad roots, so that all the fresh roots come in contact with fresh and rich soil." I have been aware of MagnusÂs opinions about this, although contrary to most of the established advice on planting, and we have experimented with thousands of plants in all the various groups and to our surprise the plants we broke the potting soil away from the roots grew at a faster rate and established themselves quicker than those that were planted with the potting soil and roots undisturbed."

I responded that it was interesting to hear that this was the case and of his experiments to confirm this. However I also told him that it was disappointing to hear that he had made this change and not informed his customers since, if they had purchased from him in the past, that this change in planting media could come as a surprise! I also told him that newbies to clematis and planting anything where the potting media might fall away from the roots and essentially leave an almost bareroot plant might not have a good experience since most newbies and for that matter, experienced gardeners, might have issues planting plants in this manner.

I guess my biggest disappointment is just in the lack of communication of this new planting media. If you change something in the way you pot your plants and grow them out, then I think you owe your customers a heads up prior to them ordering. Murray did say however that all plants shipped from Chalk Hill should have roots that are to the bottom of the container or near the bottom of the container. He went on to say that anyone who receives plants that do not fill this description they should contact Chalk Hill because "The staff selecting the plants for shipping know that they should see roots at the bottom of the container. Unfortunately not all the staff has the same exacting standards when they arrive here and it takes time to get them up to speed."

I will certainly check my plants to make sure that they fill the pot and contact Chalk Hill if they don't. I guess I should also expect the potting material to break away from the roots --even though I am not really excited about it doing so. Will post pictures when the plants arrive. I did receive notification that mine had shipped as well and should arrive on Monday.

I too have had trouble with Park's and will never order from them again.Last yr I orded a group 5 different coneflowers varietys.only 2 of the 5 lived (they too were small and half dead upon arrival) but I planted them same day and only 2 lived, I contacted,them and they said basically "too bad" and wouldnt refund or replace them, so I am done with them totally....sunset

"I should also expect the potting material to break away from the roots --even though I am not really excited about it doing so. Will post pictures when the plants arrive. I did receive notification that mine had shipped as well and should arrive on Monday."
Miguel..I just came in from planting my clematis from Murray and after removing the staples and turning the pot over into the palm of my hand..the soil medium DID NOT fall away..the ROOTS were HUGE tho..I had watered them and left them in my sink for 3 days prior to planting to allow them to recover from their travel (They've already started putting out new leaf buds)..the medium is wonderful and stayed nice and moist!!..I just planted "Hoshi no Flamenco","Princess Diana" and "Ashva"..they had multiple vines and were THICK..I am very pleased...I wasn't informed about the change in medium and have never washed the roots prior to planting..there is a lady on the Forums named RosePerson that uses that method..here is her article and she was my inspiration 3 years ago when I designed all the beds at my new home to grow clematis and roses together in my vertical plantings..

I just added the Cassis as an afterthought. The bulk of my Park's orders were perennials. I'm new to mail order in general. I now know about Garden Watchdog and I look for mail order sources here on Garden Web too.

I do know that I have an amazing variety of garden centers to choose from here.

Just got done last weekend with La Tour De Plants. The Oregon Association of Nurseries puts in on in fall to promote fall planting. Various nurseries and garden centers participate. You buy a wristband and get deals. Some are wholesale only but open during the event. Saturday my DH and I toured 8 rural nurseries. The highlight for me was the display gardens at Terra Nova. Breeders of amazing perennials, especially Huecheras.

There really weren't many Clematis on the tour but I managed to buy one. Sunset for 25% off of 12.99 in a gallon.

Jeanne, just repeating verbatim what Murray wrote in his email. I know that this spring, that is exactly what happened to my Peveril Peach when I unpotted it. I wish you would take pictures and posted them as I suggested in my other thread about first orders. I am planning on doing that with all my purchases so we can all see what we got and not just go on descriptions since descriptions are subjective--pictures are not!

Jeanne - thanks so much for posting that link to Roseperson's garden!! The pictures were fabulous, and she's given me several great ideas to try in my garden. Most notably, I've been feeling that I couldn't plant a Montana Rubens here in Colorado (I loved them in Washington). But seeing what she's done growing hers over the garage door makes me realize I can do the same. My garage door faces south and right next to the garage door is the front door, and the then the house has a west facing wall. So the driveway is sort of a half courtyard, if you will, that soaks up the winter sun.

I have a small garden on that west wall. Next spring I'm putting in a Montana, and will train it up over the front door and then continue on to go over the garage door. I think that will be so beautiful!

Members of this forum I don't consider it appropriate for myself or any other professional grower for that matter to respond to internet postings but unfortunately I must because Miguel Viso has posted some of the contents of a personal email that I sent him that I specifically asked to be kept confidential and not made public for a number of important reasons. I did let Mr. Viso know that we would be making much of the information public soon but it needed to be done in a way the general gardening public would understand since some of the information is both technical and could be seen as somewhat controversial to the amatuer gardener. What he has posted will only create confusion and misunderstanding. I am truly disappointed in Mr. Viso for violating the confidentiality of our correspondence. To avoid confusion, if you look at our planting instructions on our website, you will see a comment and explanation about soil breaking away from the roots. As I mentioned, at the appropriate time we will have a more detailed explanation of some of the changes in our plant production on our website. Since the information Mr. Viso has given is both incomplete, misleading and out of context please contact us if you have any questions at farmmgr@chalkhillclematis.com
Murray Rosen
Manager
Chalk Hill Clematis

Murray, sorry but did not mean to post something that you did not mean to be posted. I went back and read everything and see that you did wish it to be kept confidential and I am sorry for not noticing this prior to posting. However I do take offense when you said that you have this info published on your website. When I told you that I was most concerned with your not informing your customers in the change of your potting media prior to ordering, you stated that you didn't feel the need to do so. I even stated that I was concerned that past customers would be upset when they got plants that were planted in a media that was dissimilar to what they were used to receiving them in.

Sorry again about the information you didn't wish to be published but I simply overlooked that part of your email. I do however stand by my assertion that you stated that you did not feel the need to inform customers, past or new ones, about the change in your potting media and the fact that they might have issues with the soil falling away from the rootball. In my opinion, an informed public is better than one that is kept in the dark about changes in cultural practices.

You are so right hon..I should post pics..I'm sorry..I was just so excited to get them in the ground..maybe mine were not from the new potting medium..but it was real BLACK and a bit gritty...sowwy..I'll try and remember pics to help people "see" what they are getting...Jeanne

I just got my first order from Chalk Hill last week and planted one of them already- a Perle D'Azure. It's my first clematis to actually plant in the ground, and I was also impressed with the massive roots! The postage was very pricey here to CO, but I hope the cost will be worth it in the end and the clematis will be happy.

This is my first year buying/planting clematis, and I saw the link to RosePerson's garden earlier this summer. I followed his/her advice for planting for the most part, including digging 2' square holes. My back is still sore from chiseling 2 feet down into our clay, rocky soil to plant 2 clematis last weekend. Then I just read on another thread that Miguel plants his holes 1' square, so I think I need to give that a try since I have lots more holes to dig over the next few weeks... I bought a 3 from Lowe's, 4 from Brushwood, a couple from Chalk Hill, and 4 from Bluestone during the half price sale. All have survived nicely in pots except for the ones from Bluestone. 3 out of 4 of them died :( I guess I'm still learning... I think I didn't plant them deep enough when I repotted them to larger pots, and the roots were too immature to take it.

No problems Jeanne. You were like me and just excited with your first orders and forgot. I am going to document all new clematis incoming in and out of the pots.

Almondstriations, I have yet to dig a hole two feet by two feet. Also when digging the holes that I do dig, I don't go overboard with amendments for two reasons. First I garden in clay and overly amending planting holes will result in the plants sitting in water when it does rain(I can only wish it would!). Secondly, overly amending the soil in my mind results in the plant's roots wanting to stay in the good enriched soil and not want to spread out into the surrounding soil. This makes the plant even more dependent on you for water.

I agree with you on the planting holes and amending. I am in clay too and while we did amend when we cut the flower beds out of the lawn many years ago and do topdress with compost annually, I do not dig huge holes nor amend when planting. I don't want my plants to avoid sending their roots out into surrounding soil.

Good to hear that someone else has my same mindset as to planting holes BorS. Now I do amend large beds quite a bit but individual holes, no way! If a whole bed is amended then the entire lot of soil in the area is beefed up and the plants' roots will grow out into the whole bed.

I third the notion of not digging huge holes. I have mixed some compost with the clay that came out of the hole and then put all of it (clay and compost) back in the hole when planting.

My clematis should be here soon. Maybe tomorrow.

Carol

Thanks for the food for thought on amending and size of holes. I read something similar on the tree forum... Very experienced tree people seemed to be huge advocates of not amending soil at all when planting trees. I finally felt brave enough to try it (against my husband's advice) this spring when planting a small tree, and the results have been extremely disappointing. I only put some compost on top to soak into the soil but other than that didn't amend our clay at all, and the tree is gradually dying off in big sections and looks terrible. Maybe it's unhappy for other reasons, but we've treated it the same as our other trees that are doing really well, so it's enough to scare me away from trying it again.

Some of our soil is better than in other areas, where there are large sections of thick black clay (back filled by the builder after our house was constructed). If the soil looks okay, then I put most or all of it back and only amend a little bit. Other holes I wind up amending more with bagged topsoil and homemade compost, so it just depends. I put a layer of rocks (that came out of the holes I dug) at the bottom of the holes for drainage, so hopefully that will prevent them from sitting in too much water. I hope they do okay. Either way, I'm really looking forward to NOT digging massive holes this weekend :)

almondstriations - Did the tree you plant this year come in a pot or was it ball & burlap? It can be very difficult to get water to the root ball in both cases, and if the roots were pot bound or encircling the ball, it's even more difficult. If there was peat in the soil that dried out, it can be nearly impossible to re-wet it properly.

I'm curious why you put rocks in the bottom of your planting holes? Did you do that with the clematis or the tree? Is your drainage so poor that water seeps into the hole when you dig? It's rare that putting rocks at the bottom of a planting hole is recommended. Is this common practice in your area?

I second that Janet. I have seen it written time and time again and can't understand how putting rocks in the bottom of a hole improves drainage. Don't the roots just go ahead and follow where the water would naturally collect at the bottom of the hole where the rocks are? How has that helped the drainage issue?

Hi Janet- The tree came in a pot. I think the roots were circling quite a bit when I took it out of the pot, but I made sure to untangle them as much as I could, same as I have with all other trees and other stuff I've planted.

I put rocks at the bottom for a few reasons. In all honesty, I also don't "get" how it helps with drainage (if it even does), but I don't think it's going to hurt either. The reasons I've done it are 1) I've seen it recommended for helping with drainage (for example http://www.clematis.com.pl/wms/wmsg.php/970.html). 2) I get a bunch of rocks out every hold I dig, so figure I might as well put them back and why not do it at the bottom since some people recommend it? 3) My husband always puts a layer of rocks at the bottom of pots when he pots things and he has way more of a green thumb than I do so again, I figure it can't hurt.

These are the first clematis I've planted so I'm just following a combination of the instructions I've read from the companies I ordered them from and from various web sites like this one, and crossing my fingers that it works out okay. It will be awhile before the roots reach the bottoms of the holes where the rocks are anyway, so if they're still alive by then I think they'll do okay, rocks or no rocks :)

We have terrible drainage with our soil, but there's not much I can do about it. If I put some water into the holes I dig and walk away for half an hour, there is still a lot of water in the bottom of the hole when I come back. We normally don't get that much rain though in the foothills of the Rockies, so I don't think the horrible drainage is too big of an issue as long as I don't overwater.

I planted 7 more clematis yesterday and ammended less, but still added some sheep and peat mix and some homemade compost. Crossing my fingers that they'll come back next spring :)

I'm in your camp, Almond, for pretty much the same reasons (except for the husband part). When I used to do houseplants when I lived in Minnesota, the advice was to put broken clay pots or rocks in the bottom of the pots, so I just kept doing it, some of the time.

And we have lots of rocks to dispose of here in New England too. The more rocks (inch or two) in a pot, the less soil needed. And the good stuff will have a harder time getting through the holes in the bottom of the pot.

I usually keep my clems in pots until the roots fill a 5 gallon pot and I am sure they like the spot where the pot is planted (either inground or in tubs in places where it is just too difficult to dig or near a well established tree or shrub) and go well with their neighbors.

I have bought many clems in less than 2 gallon pots, so sometimes a plant gets transpotted several times. There are some that I am waiting to finish blooming to transpot, but most of the ones that have long vines will be checked in the Spring.

Most of the gallon sized ones I've bought locally have those small metal trellises that bend up through 2 pot holes. I like to transpot those to get the trellises out of the pots before going into a (semi perhaps) permanant place. But I have learned that they are more likely to wilt if I try to transpot when there are buds, so I have to wait for a few.

When I moved in here in 97, the neighbor said that topsoil was hauled in to raise the level from the field to be level with her land. I found when digging more & more each year that some was good topsoil, but some was clay & some sand. When I was making the beds east of the house I would dig out the clay in places where I wanted the beds, set it aside, & refill the hole with soil in the paths of the North garden beds, as well as compost & leaf mold. Then the clay would go into the paths on the North side. I would sift out the larger rocks & had used most of them on the paths.

The soil is much rockier in the field part. I have made a fe beds for daylilies mostly when the beds around the house overflowed, but it was such a chore that I only did much work on the top beds this year. I did dig out some dillies, iris & phlox this Spring for the new clem area, and potted thm up to transplant into the field, but just didn't have the time or energy, so I will have to get the pots well muched & maybe next Spring the survivors will get planted.

It has been quite a while since some of the beds have had compost added, so unless I am digging up a whole bed, like I did last year, the only ammendments have been in the pots or the holes where the older ones get permanently located.

Marie in ME

Well, all I can say is that a television show on the local PBS station proved to me that putting gravel or rocks in the bottom of a pot does nothing to improve drainage and in fact, actually inhibits drainage. The taller the column of soil in a pot, the better and faster the soil in the pot will drain.

The show is hosted by a professor of agriculture at NC State University. The way he demonstrated it on the show was by using an ordinary kitchen sponge to mimic the height of various columns of soil and how soil would drain depending its overall height. Pardon the following pictures of a dirty kitchen sponge, but it will make the explanation a little easier to visualize.

Picture one shows a sponge on a side view.
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Imagine it as a pot of soil that is very skinny. Take the sponge and immerse it in water and then lift it horizontally out of the water so that the smaller side is horizontal to the counter surface and note how fast the water drains out of it and how much water actually drains out.

Picture 2 shows the sponge turned in another fashion what would represent a taller column of soil.
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Now take that sponge and submerge it in water and lift it up out of the water in that orientation and note how much water runs out of it and how fast it does so.

Picture 3 shows the sponge in another orientation that would represent an even taller column of soil.
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Submerge it in a pot of water and then lift it out in that orientation and note the amount of water that runs out of it and how fast it does.

What you will see if you actually do this is that the last orientation of the sponge, corresponding to the tallest column of soil, will drain the fastest and allow the most water to drain out over time.

Moral of the story is that putting a layer of rock or other material into the bottom of a pot of any given size will slow the drainage of the water out of the soil. Mixing gravel or other similar material into all of the soil will not slow the drainage because the overall soil column height will be the same. The rock that is mixed in with the soil will also not hold water like the soil will.

Hope that makes sense!

Murray, I totally agree. Some people get carried away with their desire to be authorities on everything, including other peoples own businesses.
Suzy

For all the people who read this forum I'd like to say that the clematis that I have received from Chalk Hill over the years have been fabulous plants- well rooted and quite strong ! I have some amazing specimens in my own garden (in Massachusetts), the result of Chalk Hill's outstanding plants!
I am aware of some shenanigans going on here to mislead folks and discredit Chalk Hill who has been an outstanding and leading grower of clematis for many years. Their reputation is outstanding. I am speaking out in defense of Chalk Hill, mainly as a long standing customer who has grown quite fond of this nursery and it's owner Murray Rosen who always stands behind his clematis. He's a great guy.
As a grower of several hundred clematis and a breeder of my own clematis hybrids, I am upset to see such a good nursery be cleverly maligned and manipulated by a select few who are aligned with another nursery.
Suzymac

Suzy, first of all I want to say that I visited your website and you have a lovely garden and your clematis are gorgeous and healthy.

I'm truly not sure what you mean by "a select few maligning and manipulating such a good nursery". I have no alliance with another nursery. I order clematis from a score of nurseries every year and the whole point of this post was to state that I was impressed with the customer service Mr. Rosen provided when he called me about my order. All companies don't do that and I was very pleasantly surprised.

I am pleased that you have never received a plant from Chalk Hill that wasn't 100 percent wonderful and I have had no serious problems or I would have notified Mr. Rosen, but I have received a couple of clematis that were not as well rooted as I normally receive from them. That is simply a statement of fact not a plot to discredit anyone and they (the clematis) obviously weren't horrible enough that I decided never to order from them again. In fact, as I stated before, they were just smaller with very small root systems and required a little more care for a while. Perhaps, as Jeanne experienced, my plants were grabbed by new employees from the wrong area. I have worked at a nursery and I know that mistakes can happen and I tend not to get very upset about such things and I certainly would never try to discredit or hurt the business of someone who makes their living selling plants as long as they stand behind their product and are reputable. I have no reason to believe Mr. Rosen is less than reputable or doesn't stand behind his products. I've never heard any such complaints. Lord knows nursery owners aren't getting rich and usually choose this line of work because they love the plants.

I received my plants from Chalk Hill this week and some of them are already in the ground. So far, the ones I have planted are well rooted with many stems. I am pleased. The dirt does fall away from the roots but I just dug the hole, slid the clematis out of the pots at an angle and they dropped neatly into the hole without much problem. I don't anticipate having any difficulty with them growing and expect them to do well.

I'm sorry if I have said something to upset you but I really don't understand your accusations.

Carol

Carol, I think Suzymac's accusations are aimed at me. I don't know what nursery she thinks I am "aligned with" since I have purchased from just about every possible nursery and eBay sellers over the years. I think she is the one who is more "aligned: with a particular nursery based on her own words in her last posting.

Miguel, anyone who is paying attention will have noticed that you mention Brushwood and the owner often.

I don't understand why it's a bad thing for someone to have a preferred vendor and to regularly say nice things about them. Nor for someone to be honest and state things they don't like about about another vendor. It happens on every forum about every product imaginable.

Please, just let it go.