Could you do an 18" Dishwasher? Perhaps a 24" sink cab instead of a 30"? On a one wall kitchen this could give some more counter & storage.

Is it possible for you to take another photo where the background is lighter and the measurements are easier to read?

The worst place to put a DW is in-between sink and range. This means you can't have someone clean-up while someone else is prepping. You need to flip sink and DW.

You have another 6" available that isn't included in the posted cabinet measurements. So 24" DW, 30" sink cabinet, 24" drawer base, 24" drawer base, 30" range, 24" drawer base. Will that work?

Thanks for your responses. It's considered a low end rental so I have to keep using the word "budget". Budget for the 24" dishwasher instead of an 18". I'll be using standard sized cabinets. A 30" sink cabinet allows me more options for a more standard sized 25"W drop in stainless sink (budget).

The sink is currently on the party wall and the waste line is directly below. If the sink moves off its current wall, i'll need to take into account distance and plan vent options, etc which will increase the expenses.

I was told by a contractor years ago not to put a dishwasher next to a wall -Rubbing or friction. There will be a 24" cab between dishwasher and stove. Should there be more distance?. Suggestions? I left the 6" to place filler - I don't trust that the walls will be perfect. Standard size cabinetry like IKEA is a strong option for this kitchen.

Thanks

yes, I'll try to lighten the floor plan

First, is this a "new" home? Different than the one you were working on about a year ago through this spring?

Just checking...I'm assuming so...Could you tell us more about yourself and your family? Your goals seem pretty defined - an isolated Kitchen that includes table space.

Added: Since this is a rental, your family isn't important to this Kitchen. However, what is the composition of the "typical" renters in this area? Family? Singles? Retired? Other?

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Do you have a layout of the entire first floor?

Do you have a separate DR?

Do you have pantry space elsewhere?

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Why are you afraid to move the sink? Are you on a slab? If so, it can be expensive to move plumbing, but if you have a basement or a crawl space, it's not that difficult.

Added (based on Mags' post above): You answered this question by saying, "The sink is currently on the party wall and the waste line is directly below. If the sink moves off its current wall, i'll need to take into account distance and plan vent options, etc which will increase the expenses."

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Is the "Main Entry" the main entry to your home or just to your Kitchen? If to your home, is it the main entry for family or guests (or both)?

Adding: I think I've figured out the answer the "main entry" - it's the main entry to the Kitchen, not the home.

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Again, full-floor layout would really help!

Cross-posted.

OK, so this is a rental property, correct? Not your primary residence.

"...I was told by a contractor years ago not to put a dishwasher next to a wall -Rubbing or friction..."

Hmmm....that's the first I've heard of that!

Is this an apartment building? If so, does this mean you have to share a whole-building plumbing stack? I'm also guessing that "party wall" means it's shared with the apartment on the other side of the wall? Is this correct?

Will your range hood be vented to the outside?

The wall with the deck door doesn't add up....you say the party wall is 156" long, but your measurements on the opposite wall (with the deck door) add up to 163.5"

8" + 30.5" + 39" + 30" + 56" = 163.5"

That's 7.5" longer. If all the above measurements are correct, then you are right to be worried about not having "straight" walls!

You have a great memory Buehl. Yes a different property. This is a single family urban row home that is a rental. Yes another house attached - party wall made of brick, I believe. There's no 'building out' to other rooms or any of the 'genius' stuff that usually goes on here - :-) . I think if you don't put filler between dishwasher and wall, it can rub. The kitchen has been obsolete for a number of years, so it really needs a true update/remodel.

The sink is attached to a secondary stack/waste line that runs directly through the garage below into the ground (kitchen is above the garage.). Garage has a lift-up door. Budget issue to move sink off from the current wall.

Got it! I added your answers to my post above so people won't be searching for the answers or (hopefully) re-asking the same questions!

BTW...I can read the measurements, I'll post a blank layout with the dimensions you gave us - after you let me know if there is indeed a 7.5" difference b/w the party wall and the wall with the deck door.

Buehl, I think the first number is a 3 not an 8 but I'll have to go back to house next week to confirm exact measurements. I know several contractors have measured the room and it's about 13x11. I know there is a discrepancy on ceiling heights at different parts of the ceiling, so anything is possible (but prolly not 7") - lol.

NKBA recommends 21" between a wall and DW, but in such a small kitchen sometimes rules have to be changed. Since it's a rental, DW might be OK located between the sink and range--mine is, and although not ideal, it works. Or, if you place the DW on the left, use 3" of your filler between it and the wall, and make the cabinet on the right side of the range narrower.

If you switch the DW with the sink, be mindful of the DW door swing. There's only 45 3/4" to the main entry to the kitchen, so the DW door will likely extend into the doorway by a couple inches at least (a 25" extension doesn't seem to be unusual, which would put you 3 inches into the doorway--here's a thread on DW door swing).

Here's a quick stab at a lighter version - HTH.

Good point, cawaps--my DW door extends 27" from the cabinet face. If the cabinets are deeper than standard--27" or 30", that would be very inconvenient.

Yep, if I move the dishwasher more to the left, it'll be closer to the kitchen entry so that prolly won't work too well. I had a countertop over a single 12" cab in my old kitchen and in reality, it was useless. Never again, so I really wanted as wide as possible cabinet/countertop to the right of the stove without too much countertop impact between the sink and stove. Although electric (and not gas), I really didn't want the stove too close to the rear window. I feel I'm doing nothing but making choices of 'less evil'!

This is just my thinking as to why I put things where I did before posting for help. I'd like to improve the functionality (at a reasonable cost), however, if a full 'about face' provides a more functional kitchen, I'd have to strongly consider it. Thanks again.

All of the points about the DW are valid...however, in this small a space that must fit not only a kitchen but also table space, some compromises are necessary. As to the DW door and the doorway, that may be a compromise to provide better work flow overall. It's up to you - and remember these are renters - temporary people. This is not for a permanent - years and years - family situation.

Personally, I'd rather block the doorway a bit than have the DW in the way when working, but YMMV.

Here's my first layout, Layout #1.

[Replaced pic with one that points out storage & Snack Center with MW]

Zones:

Note: I was going to do one with the table in the upper left corner and more of a galley kitchen in the "bottom" as well, but I don't have time right now. Maybe someone else can work it up (Funky? MamaGoose? Lisa? Lavender? Others?)

Oh, here's my blank layout:

Thanks so much. Will it look ok that the first thing one sees when they open the front door to the house and look straight back, that the fridge will be the only/first thing one sees? Also the current fridge (supplied by tenant) is a regular depth 36" fridge. It'll never be a rental that a tenant provides a counter depth fridge.

Would it be inappropriate for the dishwasher to be between the sink and dishwasher? It's just going to be too close to kitchen entryway. I'd rather the user 'navigate' around an open dishwasher once they get into the kitchen and not be stopped at the door. However, overall it is a much, much better plan with the dishwasher at the end nd of the run. Much more efficient. And not much increase in the number of boxes. Any suggestions on where to put a microwave? on the counter seems pretty obvious. I'll have to check and see if IKEA does 33" cabs and the corner cab. Thanks and keep ideas coming.

Ooops! I forgot to include the radiator in the layout I posted. It currently is under window#1, near the corner cabinet in the new layout. Earlier I figured I could just move the radiator anywhere along the rear wall. Now it won't fit along that rear wall. Cabinetry or heat?? Aarrrggghhh!! Any ideas of where it could go? (Can't do anything fancy like toe kick heaters since it can't work with current furnace without a major conversion. Reminder to self: It's a rental property).

The tenant provides the refrigerator? That's very different than the DC/Baltimore area - in rental properties around here, the owner provides all the appliances. [We used to rent out my old townhouse.]

The radiator does complicate things. If it must be on that wall, then you'll need a different layout.

DW location...if you'd rather dodge it while working than the less often task of cleaning up, then it will have to be moved, if you cannot move the entry door. Keep in mind that only 20% or less time is spent cleaning up, and that 20% includes non-DW tasks such as clearing the table and wiping down the table & counters. Prepping, on the other hand, is 70% or more of your time - that's when you would be dodging a DW that is open when someone is cleaning up while you're prepping or when someone wants to get something out of or put something in the DW while you're prepping. When that happens, you will have to get out of the way of that other person.

Microwave (MW) location...in the layout I posted above, I put it in the corner b/w the range and refrigerator.

[Note: I say "you", but it really applies to the tenants.]

.

Back to the drawing board!

Yes Buehl, it is odd that we don't provide a fridge. Times were different back then. We've been out of the rental housing game and I hear it's much more competitive to get quality tenants, so I'll be adding more amenities than we ever had in the past. We have a SS fridge that will stay there till it dies and then see how the market is.

The dishwasher near the kitchen entry is wearing well with me. It is in a logical work zone. The original floorplan had the radiator noted as well as a lot of other detail that clouded the basic layout so I removed the radiator when I simplified the floorplan details. I hope to still get help here with a functional layout.

Hi, Mags. I remember your previous kitchen thread. I couldnt find it, though. Might it be under a different user name?

What is your target demographic? Singles? Small family?

Does your market require a dishwasher? I might consider just skipping a dishwasher if your property is for a single person. During our reno we lived in an apartment and the DW was worthless; I just handwashed. As a landlord, I'd want one less appliance that might require maintenance or cause a leak and damage. The landlords here on the forum might say I'm crazy to consider skipping a DW. The market in my area has like a 3% vacancy rate and I doubt a DW would be a deal breaker right now. I'd put a 24" base cab next to the sink so I could change my mind in the future.

whoops. We posted at the same time and I saw the comment about amenities :-)

Where exactly is the radiator? It looks like your layout has cabinets partially under the window...but is that b/c you were going to move it? I assume the radiator is only 19" or so from the left wall...correct? How long is it? How deep?

Benjesbride - the lack of a DW would be a deal-breaker in our area - and I assume in Mags' area as well.

I found my old layout suggestion for mags...

Updated blank layout:

There's a separate DR (per Benjesbride's layout)? Do you really need a Kitchen table then?

Is a small bistro table with a couple of chairs OK?

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Is the deck door the main entry into the appartment for family/close friends?

IIRC, Buehl, that back door is not an entry point, but just goes to a deck of some sort. Maybe. I think my drawing above was posted before I learned of this.

It looks like it all fits including fillers and end panels: 2" filler - dishwasher - end panel - 36" sink base - end panel - 36" base - end panel - 30" range - end panel - 24" base - 2" filler. The end panels are so the sides of the cabinets are finished in the raised areas above the sink and the range. I'd do a single bowl instead of this double.

If the table & chairs really aren't necessary, then how about this... I suppose you could put a small bistro table in front of the radiator - but, personally, I think it would be too tight.

Layout #2:

Zones:

.

I don't feel qualified to comment much on the layout, since I'm still in the initial phase of planning my kitchen remodel, although I agree that the dishwasher in between the sink and range would be inconvenient if there is more than one person in the kitchen trying to work at the same time.

But since I've been a renter since 1998, I'll chime in to say that I would never consider renting a place with no refrigerator or no dishwasher.

Thanks sooo much for all the feedback. It's a 3bedroom rowhouse that we rented for about 15 yrs between 2 groups of tenants. One was a single police officer with an young adult child and the other group were 3 singles - kinda like a three's company setup. I would love to repeat these target markets.

The radiator is currently under window#1 - it sits about 24" from left party wall so I knew the rad would need to move to make room for base cabinets. I'll have to re-measure the current sized rad when I go there this week.

The kitchen was originally an eat-in kitchen with a breakfast nook. I'd like to keep it as an eat-in somehow since an eat-in kitchen gives brownie points on appraisals; I may leverage this property in the near future.

I've gone round and round with how much updating to do to this kitchen. I was initially going really inexpensive and just have some plaster and lathe removed from ceiling and walls and patched but in the end I don't think I would be satisfied; would have been a 'crash & burn' project. So I'm going to demo walls which means I can consider a new layout. I have looked at remodeled kitchens/houses on the street for the last 5 yrs; all of them have nice looking kitchens/houses but all have highly dysfunctional kitchens. So I'm adding a dishwasher, garbage disposal, and existing SS fridge, UCLs, etc. We'll continue to provide the as-is laundry set. That's enough for a rental.

"...I'm going to demo walls which means I can consider a new layout..."

If you're going to demo walls, could you post a layout of the entire floor as well as what walls you're willing to demolish or at least change?

Right now, I think that's key for additional layouts.

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"...all of them have nice looking kitchens/houses but all have highly dysfunctional kitchens..."

Could they be dysfunctional b/c of the attempt to keep an eat-in Kitchen even when there's a separate DR? Perhaps taking the DR wall down (all or part) may make a difference.

Honestly, I don't see how the Kitchen could be well-functioning with a full-size Kitchen table & chairs in this space. But, maybe I'm missing something.

Well-functioning meaning good workflow, sufficient aisle widths, sufficient work space where it's needed, sufficient storage, etc.

I'll be removing the plaster and lathe from the walls, but I will not be removing any walls. Sorry for confusion. It will remain an enclosed 13x11 kitchen. Just removing the plaster and lathe walls will significantly increase my costs - dumpster, drywall..now can consider recessed lighting, UCLs, more outlets, etc etc. it can go on and on forever. It all costs money and typically won't bring in higher rents so I'm trying to find our balance for improvements.

Honestly, I don't see how the Kitchen could be well-functioning with a full-size Kitchen table & chairs in this space. But, maybe I'm missing something.

I agree with Buehl but I tried. I think her galley kitchen is preferable for working in and don't really like the range placement where I put it because of lack of safe counter on each side. I'm unclear how much the radiator might impact the range placement there. I thought the left side counter could just be counter and open under if the radiator intrudes into that area too much for any cabinet there. The counters are really narrower than recommended for safety if you need a place to land a hot pot quickly.

I also don't really like walking into the range when you open the door but if you put a smaller table where I placed it, it should be easy enough to turn and avoid the range and a cook standing there. Especially since this doesn't sound like a high-traffic door.

Can the radiator be moved? If it was moved to the other side of where I placed the range, would there be enough space to still open the door fully?

If the radiator doesn't get too hot to damage a table there, maybe a small table like this? Might be nice to cozy up to on a cold day?

Thanks for hanging in there with my dilemma. I'm stumped too.

I attached photo - shows the radiator on the left side - that's where the breakfast nook was...church pew-type seating with a table. (Middle wall and valance will be removed). I think I should be able to move radiator to any exterior wall (has a window) without serious impact. In the original kitchen with breakfast nook, the stove was under window#3 and is still in the same location. I don't think it's location is acceptable by today's standards.

i like the overall 1-wall galley design I initially started with and the one that Buehl did. (The individual components can be moved around for the zones). If I put the fridge between the 2 rear windows as suggested, then the sink is on the other side of kitchen. But the other side of the room can be used for seating as suggested. Lovin' that part. If I leave the fridge in the other available corner across from the sink, that seems natural. But then there's not a definitive space for seating. Any suggestions?

I'm liking the layout posted by benjesbride. Maybe because it's simple, not in a bad way though. Only 8 boxes on that wall. Maybe I could add something on the fridge wall under the window#3. The fridge needs a landing space and some storage wouldn't be bad since there's not much base storage on proposed sink wall. Any ideas?

The table in benjesbride' layout is shown in the rear. Without any regard to the radiator, would the rear space be adequate for maybe a rectangle table w/ 3 chairs? Since the house is a straight thru, whatever is on the rear wall will be front and center when entering the house. What'cha think?

Buehl, your stuff is great, but 2 sinks in my el cheapo rental? Lol it's so easy to 'take it up a notch' here. I became a TKO'er if you ask my family and friends! I have to (often) pull myself back and remind myself, this is just a rental. Quality but simple.

You guys are just great! Thanks so much.

It would be tight, but one could put a 30" counter height pub table between the windows with stools that can tuck underneath. i did this in one of my small apartments years ago. Are you asking because you plan to stage the apartment?

eta: you'll need a minimum 32 inches between the table and counter in the above arrangement.

I thought I'd show what Layout #1 would look like. I worked it up in Chief Architect...

(Please keep in mind that I'm not an expert in Chief Architect!)

2D View:

Overhead 3D:

Views from left-to-right:

Banquette (I couldn't find a "banquette, so I fudged it!):

Elevations:

That really looks nice Buehl. As a former IT pro, it amazes me how much I still prefer to do via paper, including layouts. I think due to costs among other reasons, I'll stick with having the one wall done now and maybe add/update cabinetry on the other walls before sale time (quite a few years from now). I'm still leaning towards IKEA cabs since their product should be around during the next 10 years. Also, since we have several nearby IKEAs, the tenants can buy all the IKEA interior drawer organizers themselves...on their dime. (I am glad they no longer plaster 'IKEA' all over the little hinge covers as in the early days).

next I'll need to pull together flooring (vinyl planks?), countertop (Formica/laminate) and backsplash colors (something modern/contemporary). Going with IKEA shaker style cabs, I think...I'm never sure of my choices. This rental update has to be budget friendly; i'll start a new thread.

please don't desert me now! I'm heading into the details and here's where I *always* seem to 'crash and burn' in my choices and then by the time the project is done, I hate the results. Please spoon-feed me. Haha!

Mags, did you say that when you walk in the front door you look directly at that wall between the two windows?