I like your attitude about "olde," Skybird. Because we are in about the same boat (or, tethered to the same kite string), I will share some thoughts.

First off, I don't really know much about genetics. I have read some of the arguments for: Things like, "we have been relying on accidental mutations, forever. When we deliberately and scientifically make genetic changes, people get upset." I've read about "junk DNA" and how humans share all these genes with other creatures, sometimes, with no manifestation or known reason. I've also read how genetically modified crops lower pesticide use, or may, or should.

You have reason to be sceptical of those interested in making money. And, you may as well be sceptical of those who are charged to regulate what comes on the market. Here's something that I have been faced with in my life: asbestos.

I used to work on boiler maintenance. The entire thing and pipes leading out of it were covered with asbestos. I worked with potting soil using vermiculite, contaminated with asbestos. I bought a house with that same vermiculite used as ceiling insulation. I live only a couple of hours from the town where that Grace vermiculite was mined and have some idea of what those mine workers and residents of that community have gone through after the sh*t finally hit the fan on the existence of that mine and the widespread use of it's product. I lived in the US where Peter Grace was hired by our government to tell us how government could be run like a business. And, I pay taxes to pay for environmental cleanup and asbestosis. Government payments to protect the Grace corporation, which just recently came out of decades-long bankruptcy ...

Here is what was read on the floor of the US Senate from a letter of an asbestos industry executive after the dangers came to light: "...if you have enjoyed a good life while working with asbestos products, why not die from it?" Uh, huh. Maybe there would be better ways to die.

Shoot. This doesn't have much to do with Fedco and saving seed or even GMO's. But, I feel better.

Steve

Yeah, I know about asbestos, Digit. My (favorite) uncle was in the Navy during WW II, and then worked in construction building houses after the war, and he died of mesothelioma.

In terms of Olde! From my point of view, "accidental mutations" worked pretty well for thousands and thousands--millions--of years. Even if nobody got paid for them! Mother Nature seems to do a pretty good job--when we just let her alone!

It was finding out that I was eating the chemically treated Roundup Ready plants that finally scared me into reconsidering my position. Another thing! When I was a kid my parents grew/sold perennials and then went into mums exclusively. Sometime after they switched to just mums some company came up with a systemic insecticide called Temik. My parents only used it on ornamentals, but at the time it was said to be safe to use on food crops within 4 or 6 weeks of harvest--I don't remember for sure how long anymore. Because it was so good at killing (ALL) insects, it was used on a LOT of food crops! Oops! They guys who made it were wrong!!! (And who knows how much they already knew when they started selling it.) People got sick--and who know if or how many people died from it. Then they changed the rules some, they kept using it on food crops but had a longer time before harvesting or something like that. The guys who made the stuff were still making money after all, so they found a way to keep selling it! Here's a quote from the linked site below:

“The system is designed to leave things like this on the market as long
as possible. It’s innocent until proven guilty. It’s really
unconscionable that it takes literally decades to do this,” he said.

http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/aldicarb-phaseout

I also know another story about this stuff from a girl who worked for me in 1971. A friend of hers worked at a greenhouse and when they were "spreading" (broadcasting) Temik one time he got a couple grains of the stuff in the rubber gloves he was wearing. That, along with his perspiration, was enough to get him in a hospital!

Temik is one of the reasons why I "doubt" the guys who make this kind of "stuff!" Maybe they really don't know what it's gonna do to us--that's the BEST case scenario in my opinion. And maybe they do have some idea of how bad it is for us--and the Earth, and maybe they just don't care as long as they get enough money before people start getting sick. Like the YELLOW Animas River in Colorado last year! Once they get their money they're GONE, and somebody else is left to deal with the mess and the health consequences.

That, again, is just my opinion!

Skybird

P.S. All opinions are welcome here on RMG, as long as they're kept friendly!

GMOs I think get an overall bad wrap because of certain application of the technology, that is the herbicide resistance and pesticide part of it. Not to mention the "questionable" business practices that have been alleged.

You are also quite right about the fear of a single disease having the potential to wipe out huge amounts of food crops because of the monoculture style of farming. But, that's an issue regardless of whether those crops are GM or not. The wheat famine in the USSR during the 70s and the potato famine in Ireland during the 18th century were both results of monocultures, and neither of them involved GMOs.

"Round up resistant" plants are also hardly the gamut of bio-engineering that has been used and there is enormous potential to do good that I think needs to be taken into consideration as well. For example, combating nutritional deficiencies in some areas of the world through the creation of "golden rice." In some locations in SE Asia and Africa, where rice is the principal food source, blindness, and infant and child mortality rates are linked, at least in part, to deficiencies in vitamin A. Scientists created a GMO rice that synthesizes beta-carotene in order to provide a source for vitamin A in those communities.

Likewise, diabetes treatments were developed through genetic-engineering, and in fact mark the first use of GMOs on a large scale.

So while I do believe that there are some bad, or at least very questionable, uses of GMO technology, I do not think that it should be used as a reason to disparage the field as a whole (not that anyone here has done so).

And, I know a little something about Temik, Skybird.

We used it all the time in the rose greenhouse where I worked. I checked on how it was supposed to kill aphids and such - all by absorption through the roots. I knew that it was killing them through the air and took a tape measure out and measured from where it had been applied and where else there were dead aphids. It was 8 feet. You can't get away from the fumes of stuff in a winter greenhouse. Oh well ...

One greenhouse worker went into the emergency room when I was there. She had thrown trash on empty Temik bags in the garbage bin. Union Carbide people showed up to talk to owners .... wish real union had showed up.

The noise about Temik really increased after it was broadly found in Florida drinking water. Aldicarb was measured at 600 ppb in some groundwater.The standard was set at 10ppb. National Academies of Science Persistence, oops. Citrus orchards ... did we know what Anita Bryant was so happy about being in our orange juice besides vitamin C?

Steve

Fedco is a nice little company to deal with. Surprising that Maine has three good seed houses in Fedco, Johnny's and Pinetree considering they have a growing window about as small as ours.

Seminis has been problematic for years. They developed and hold patent on some good -- no, great -- varieties of different veggies. Cheddar cauliflower is one of them. OMG, that's good. But, I made the choice several years ago to forego those. Not that my little personal protest will matter one whit.

I'm in the odd place of being smack dab in the middle of Colorado crop country. I can't say much at all or I'll tick someone off. I will say that I am far more concerned with how much synthetic chemical I see Harry Homeowner, down the street, dump in his yard than I am with what I see the fourth generation farmer spraying on his crop from the tractor.

Would you believe that the infamous local florist recommended malathion as the first line of defense, last summer. Apparently, she wants to roll back the clock on many things.

I do use glyphosate. Sparingly. And only basic glyphosate, not the kind that stays in the soil for ages. CO-Horts blog had an excellent breakdown of the various kinds of Roundup, from the basic to the super pre-emergent types. Then again, you have the Pinterest gardeners that spread that nonsense about salt and vinegar. Yeah, let's pour salt on the soil. Ever hear about the Roman legions doing that, folks? Sterile fields for decades. Lots of nonsense out there.

GMOs. Zach, I have lifelong friends who swear by them. I have lifelong friends who are leery of them. All of them farm. Personally, after a couple of decades of seeing their use, I think they have a place. But not the end-all, be-all some see. A small place, with specific uses.

Diversity. Moderation. Usually good rules of thumb.

Driving on Rt. 85 in Brighton i watched labors spray something on the crops wearing masks. Can't be good if they are wearing protective gear. So many things we have learned over the years about the damage the " bug killers" can and have done. It's a wonder we are not a population of 2 heads, 16 toes....

Interesting comments so far, and I agree with most of them.

Zach, I’ve also heard about the crops that are being
“engineered” to make them more nutritious, and at first glance I tend to agree
that that could be a very positive thing.
But then you wind up back in the Potato Famine World, where, if major
portions of those countries are in production of that one specific crop and
“something” goes wrong, you have the same monoculture culture problem that
created the two famines you mention. It
would seem that the world didn’t learn from those catastrophes! Check out the bottom part of this page under
the heading “Ignoring History.” It tells
about incidents in the 70s and the 80s with corn and grapes, and that was
before the “modern era” of genetic manipulation like we have now.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/agriculture_02

So if nobody ever learns from the Epic Fails of a
monoculture, and now they’re creating a “super duper rice” that’s gonna feed
millions of people if they can get enough people to grow it, and then IT fails,
ultimately “they” wind up creating an even bigger problem when instead of
people not having “rice” that’s nutritious enough they wind up with nothing at
all to eat.

Another thing I wonder about when it comes to these big
areas where it seems people are suddenly malnourished, how is it that they
lived, and thrived, for thousands and thousands of years growing the rice and
whatever else they ate, and then “suddenly” they aren’t getting enough
nutrition. Is it possibly something
“we’ve” already done to change their diet that has changed it for the
worse? Something happened to change the
status quo from those thousands of years past!

So, yes, I basically do agree that “good/helpful/useful
things” are possible with genetic engineering, but I guess in most cases it’s the “intent” of those doing
the engineering that creates so much skepticism in me! Are the people creating the “healthier rice”
doing it to help Humanity, or are they doing it to help their pocketbook—and in
the process creating a whole new monoculture that will ultimately do more harm
than good. And when that monoculture
crashes, as they all eventually must, will they be using the dollars out of
their own pocket to help the starving masses, or will they be moving on to the
next profitable development! I hate
negative people, and I hate even more to have negativity in me, but from my
“observations of Modern Man” over the last 20 years or so I just seem to have
trouble seeing much Milk of Human Kindness in most “corporately involved”
people! I want to believe—I really do,
but I’m Olde, and I’ve seen a lot!

And eating Roundup Ready grain—or anything else—really does
scare me! It doesn’t scare me right now,
today! It scares me 10 or 20 or 30 years
down the road—when “they” go OOPS! I’m
olde and it’s probably pretty much too late for it to do much damage to “me,”
but for the generations growing up now, and the generations yet unborn, that’s
gonna be one helluva OOPS! [I think
about that in terms of all the prescription drugs that are advertised on TV
over and over for several years, and then they “disappear” for about a year,
and then all the personal injury attorneys show up on TV with class action
suits for the “drugs that disappeared!”
When “somebody” finds something they can sell “us,” we’re all the guinea
pigs until something goes wrong.]

Seed Savers is actively working to “have a cure” when the
monocultures crash—at least with the apple trees they are. They have over 900 varieties of “old” apple
trees they’re preserving, and I don’t remember exactly how many, but it was at
least a couple hundred varieties of grapes.
They’re also “preserving” some of the “old,” and “unmodified” poultry
breeds. They’re not “getting rich,” but
they are doing something good in my opinion.
[And if anybody’s interested, they do sell some of their apple varieties
too!]

Jali! “Diversity.
Moderation.” If you made it
around to this thread I sort of figured you’d be The Voice of Moderation!

I would have to disagree with this statement, however!

“Not
that my little personal protest will matter one whit.”

I believe every single “little personal protest” helps! The only way we can really “fight back”
against the things we disagree with in this “current world” is with our
Dollars! And when enough people decide
to fight against any one “cause,” it eventually reaches Critical Mass and
really does make a difference. I guess
that’s what impressed me so much about Fedco’s “protest!” They’re “voting with their dollars,” and
standing up for what they believe in!

And I so, sososo, agree with you on the Pinterest
Effect! OMG! The blind leading the blind! Yeah! Go
ahead and dump a bunch of salt in your garden and see where that gets ya! Insanity Squared! [No! I
never heard about the Roman legions doing that!
Hmmm! Agent Orange of the Roman
Empire, huh?] And, do they really still
make Malathion???

I basically agree with you that “homeowners” are probably
scarier in the “stuff” they saturate their yards with, and wash off into the
gutters, and pour down their drains, but if I had my druthers I like to see the
farmers using less “stuff” too. My
primary “garden cure all” is Palmolive dishwashing soap, but I do still use
chemicals when there seems to be no other option. But my association with American Indians for
the last several years, and seeing the reverence they have for the Earth, both
historically and currently, leads me to use less and less and less “artificial
stuff.” I don’t think I’ll ever quite
get to a half-life of zero, but I have definitely cut back significantly. And my garden still grows!

Moderation in all things!
Yes!

Skybird

Just personal observation, but the farmers around here are not using more glyphosate. Where these figures of so much more glyphosate use come from puzzles me. I'm naturally skeptical, I suppose. The farmers can only use so much. They have no desire to poison themselves, their families, their land and their livelihood. Yet, I am seeing waaaaay more of it marketed in the hardware stores and big boxes. There isn't a week that goes by that you don't see it on sale at one store or another. They are really pushing it at the urban/suburban residents.

Look at all the lawn services. Oh, get me going on them! They don't make money if they don't work, so despite the fact they aren't suppose to spray 2-4D on a breezy day, they do. I've seen my plants suffer and some die because of herbicidal drift from those guys spraying when they shouldn't have.

Yes, malathion is still available, Skybird. On the top shelf in small bottles. Most people, thankfully, don't know what it is and don't buy it. Yet, I hear some of the locals want the town to spray when they see one mosquito, but Save the Pollinators in the same breath! Think, people. Think. Prudence needs to be exercised.

There are irresponsible farming landowners, more often than not, they are the huge corporate landowner types. The family farmer isn't going to risk health and livelihood. We need to take the whole picture into account. If we don't look at all the factors, not just one or two, we won't make progress fixing an agricultural industry that is in a huge era of change.

Hi all,

This isn't about Fedco OR Monsanto, but I just got a Seed Savers newsletter today and I thought this article was really interesting! There's a "seed vault" in Norway, and Seed Savers just sent a whole buncha seeds there! There's another "seed vault" in Ft. Collins, which surprised me! Had no idea!

http://blog.seedsavers.org/blog/svalbard?utm_source=Seed+Savers+Exchange+Newsletter&utm_campaign=37c76d2d50-March_2016_Member_Newsletter3_3_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_530267ed05-37c76d2d50-91539278

Another of the articles tells about a few good pollinator plants that would be helpful for bees--and other "critters." Since this topic comes up around here from time to time I thought I'd link it.

http://blog.seedsavers.org/blog/plants-that-draw-pollinators-to-your-garden?utm_source=Seed+Savers+Exchange+Newsletter&utm_campaign=37c76d2d50-March_2016_Member_Newsletter3_3_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_530267ed05-37c76d2d50-91539278

I don't know if there's anything else in here somebody might be interested in, but here's the newsletter.

http://us1.campaign-archive1.com/?u=4474a76b0fe1edee871ccdcee&id=37c76d2d50&e=a9dcc099e4

Garden on,

Skybird

P.S. Jali, I agree with you that the big corporate farms are the ones that are most likely to "cause problems," but I was under the impression--for many years now--that huge corporations were buying out many, if not most, of the smaller family farms. Maybe that's wrong. I hope it is! I had an uncle in Illinois who was a Dirt Farmer his whole life--long before all the big enclosed-cab farm implements. Had some hogs and dairy cows too. It was always great fun to go visit them--and sit on the tractors and run around in the barn--and climb up and play on the hay wagons, with or without hay! And my grandfather farmed too, but he had quit by the time I was born! I agree with you that most of the family farmers do what they can to care for the land.