I have 3 sons in need of work. The middle one is an honors grad w/ an economics degree: smart, smart kid, hard worker. He got laid off at GE Capital at the end of December, has had only a few nibbles on his resume since. He made it through 4 rounds of interviews at Pepsi, but didn't get picked for the job. He was hoping to get married this summer, but neither he nor his girlfriend have work. Both are living with parents. Not too happy in our household at the moment.

I'm not, but we're doing one of our own at DH's office at the moment. I can sympathize with you, though. Those tests take so much time. Yikes, an hour!

At DH's medical office, we're now asking applicants (we're looking to hire another physician's assistant this time) to drop off applications with our office manager, which is a good way to weed out the ones that are definitely not going to work out. Saves both the applicant and the office staff time valuable time. I'm always amazed at how inappropriately some people dress for an interview, although we usually get those for the secretary jobs (low cut, sexy or too revealing clothes; too much dramatic, mask-like makeup; visible inappropriate tattoos, giant holes in their ears, etc). While all the above are perfectly ok for many jobs, they're not for most medical offices. We're pretty conservative.

If they make the initial cut and their applications check out ok, they're scheduled for a sit down interview with DH, his office manager and the other P.A. What we're looking for is not only someone with experience that fits our office situation but someone who will get on well with the patients and staff, too. A happy staff that all get along well is such a joy . . . and one "bad apple" can turn it into a nightmare! Honesty, drug problems and a good work record are, of course, very important, as well. Right now we're about to let a part-time secretary go because she's ALWAYS 10-15 minutes late (she works afternoons and has every morning off) and she makes a habit of scheduling all her kids appointments (for everything ) during her work hours instead of in the mornings when she's off . . . which leaves the rest of the front staff in a lurch covering for her while trying to do their own jobs. Our outlook on that is, for every person who's a real slouch and/or doesn't give their job 100%, there are a hundred others out there who gladly will. Those are the ones employers are looking for.

I guess my point is, time away from (in our case) patients is so darn valuable and hard to come by that we try to do as much preliminary screening as possible so that DH, his office manager, his PA and the applicants are not wasting their precious time.

I do have to add that it's a bit frightening how many people these days do have drug related issues in their past. Allowing an employee access to the sample closet, prescription pads, an office key, medical records and other things in a medical office is a very serious committment on our part. All employers feel the same way about their businesses, though.

I do hope you find the right job for you soon, Threegrad. I wasn't at all implying that the reason you're not getting hired is because you don't dress appropriately or have drug issues. You seem like a very classy lady and I'm sure it's just a matter of finding the right job that fits your skills. I'm just venting a bit at how difficult it's been to find a PA for us. Anyhoo, I'll keep you and your job hunt in my prayers, Threegrad.
Lynn

I was laid off in February from my job as a reporter and am looking for work. I returned to school last fall (part-time evenings) mostly because I wanted to study law but also because I knew a layoff was inevitable in that industry.

I've been answering ads for part-time research, etc. positions at law firms but have had zero interest. Friends who already work at firms say it's not so much the perception that I'll leave, or even my age, but that school will somehow keep me from doing even a part-time job. Silly, considering I worked full-time, went to school at night and managed to do it all well, my first semester.

It's been suggested that I not mention I'm in school - I guess in a sense, it's really no one's business but mine. But, I also feel a little weird about that. Not sure what to do.

In the meantime, I'm interning (unpaid) and taking a required summer class. But I'm hoping to find something because I'm a structured person who does everything better when I have more to do.

Good luck Threegrad!

I've been looking for work for a month and the job situation out there is not good, especially for older folks like me. Finally found something and am hoping the same for you Threedgrad.

DH took a 9-month accelerated course in Medical Coding & Billing and graduated in early March. I know what lucille is saying about finding work after a (ahem) certain age. He's been looking but to no avail. So far he's had 3 interviews, which is positive, but each time they've hired someone with experience. It's the old catch-22 situation. How on earth are you supposed to get experience if no one will give you a chance to have experience? Thank goodness he has a job, so it's not like he's not bringing in $$$, but it does get disheartening.

Older applicants need to focus more on their dependability, good work ethic, longevity, maturity and wisdom in dealing with the public and fellow workers. IMHO, those qualities make for the best, long-term employees . . . and are sadly lacking in many younger applicants these days! The one thing that seems to be the biggest drawback to hiring older applicants is their inexperience . . .. actually, fear in many cases~ of using computers and the internet. If I had my druthers, I'd hire an older applicant any day of the week over a younger, more expeienced one . . . IF they were comfortable using a computer.
Lynn

mrsmarv: My knowledge of coding and/or billing is a little sketchy, but has your husband obtained any certification such as the CCA, CCS, or CCS-P? I'm not positive if they actually require experience to sit for those exams or not. If not, it might be a leg up to have some certification under his belt.

Oops, I just took a quick look, and AHIMA requires experience to sit for the CCS and CCS-P. However, the CCA is for new coders so that one doesn't require experience. It might be worth checking out.

Good luck!

I have written many resumes, given seminars, and helped people find jobs. Typically in a technical/engineering area, but my advice would be the same for any position: network, network, network.

A real face-to-face connection is USUALLY how people find the best jobs. Join several professional societies - interior design, architecture, habitat for humanity, women in business, chamber of commerce, etc. Attend meetings, participate, mingle. Don't come on too strong, but let people know you are looking for work. Have a resume with you at all times. Have a nice / generic business card on hand, listing your skills.

Do volunteer work in your field. Offer services cheap (it can't hurt if your unemployed anyway, right?) on a self-employed basis to build (fill in those gaps) your resume and/or get your foot in the door. It's amazing how you can raise your rates once you have a client list or you build a good reputation. You can always keep this as a side job when you find a permanent position.

Make sure your resume is one page, lists specific skills, has no gaps of employment (even if you put "self-employed" and list what you did in that time as "projects"), and (this is big) is targeted for each job you apply. Even bigger is a targeted and well-written cover letter. How YOU can help them - not what you are looking for in a job.

Very few people (no one?) I know have ever found a GOOD position by filling in online applications or going door-to-door "cold". Some have found a position by visiting a company over and over and over until they become "known". Besides, all of the above networking can't hurt, it shows your interest in your field, it gives you insight into what are the better companies to work for, and it will give you something positive to talk about in an interview.

Best of luck. (But it's really not luck.) :-)

"The one thing that seems to be the biggest drawback to hiring older applicants is their inexperience . . .. actually, fear in many cases~ of using computers and the internet."

I agree completely. I have a few friends who don't even know how to turn on a computer, and that's the truth. Thankfully, my DH isn't among that camp LOL.
I work for a local school district and when I entered my current position, the woman who held the job before me (Principal's Secretary) had the typewriter at her desk and the computer on a table around the corner! Whoa! My office mate said she wrote notes on small scraps of paper and rarely used the computer, preferring to type documents up. How on earth can you save anything of importance for retrieval on a typewriter?? Gadzooks!

gang ~ He has a CPC (?) certificate. I am keeping a positive attitude and believe that someone will see the merit in hiring him. He has many terrific qualities that would make him a valuable member of any team. Thanks for the recommendation ;o)

Well, I have 20 plus years of computer experience. I just got another rejection email. Oh well.

BTW, most places now list the jobs on careerbuilder or craigslsit and do not want you coming in unless they call you to do so. Bigger places like Walmart and Sears have you go through computer assessment tests even if you went to the store to apply, they point you towards the computer sitting in the corner set up for job applicants.

Well, I am working at Dillards today. I am taking the place of a gal whose 35 year old son is having open heart surgery today. Please pray for him.

Take care all and please count your blessings every day.

I agree with last_mango.

I was hired at my last four jobs because of networking (in addition to having the skills to do the work). And the first two "real" jobs I ever had were the result of knowing someone (I did not have the skills to do those jobs).

However, I did get two jobs by cold calling. One was in another state! I literally went through the yellow pages of the phone book of the city I was moving to and started calling companies.

I especially agree with having a targeted resume and cover letter. Many people think they can just send the same resume (usually with spelling errors) to every potential employer. And those same people don't usually take the time to write a decent cover letter. Just because you're applying online doesn't mean you can't also send a printed resume and cover letter. Or make the cover letter the first "page" of your resume document.

I'm always amazed by people who either can't find a job or hate the job they have but do nothing to learn new skills. I know someone who's in danger of losing her job because her employer's business has dropped off, but she won't even read a book about learning how to use the internet while she's standing around doing next to nothing at work.

sorry...just my personal peeve

I agree with what you say. Except. Even with networking and resume and all, when you get the interview there is sometimes prejudice against older workers. While us old guys have advantages to give to employers, there are down sides too, and while you can play up the advantages sometimes an employer has his/her mind made up.
I didn't get the job I wanted, got something, but I'm just affirming the frustration that some older applicants have to deal with especially in the current job market.

I'm self employed. I work with many human resource people. I work with many department managers.

Believe me, a resume that is handed to them by a current worker or friend gets a whole different treatment than an application filled in online. That's why networking is so important. Online applications are on the bottom of the pile or immediately rejected - usually with no more than a brief glance. I know it's not what people want to hear, but it's true. People tell you to apply online to get rid of you.

A personal recommendation is paramount. An older person recommended by a younger person gets a lot more attention. Use facebook wisely. Join societies in your field. Do volunteer work. Become self-employed and offer extremely reasonably priced services. Go to business computer classes - just to meet currently employed people taking those classes. Meet as many people as you can in your business. Take a community college class in your field - at night to meet employed people. Invite someone to lunch for an information session. Listen to Uxorial :-) Don't just go to businesses and apply - get to know the people working there. Don't pester, but be persistant.

One extremely targeted and thought out approach to a single position is worth a hundred online applications. Go for what you want, but go intently - it will pay off.

A real face-to-face connection is USUALLY how people find the best jobs.

This was the topic on Dr Phil about a month ago. One guy was looking for work and couldn't get hired. He was doing a lot of online job apps. Dr Phil had an expert in that said most employers don't want someone that is applying online because of all the people on unemployment that have to prove they applied to a certain amount of places each day. I think he said they take people more seriously when they actually go face to face to apply.

It's funny because a lot of places are only online as was mentioned. I actually wonder if going to a place like Walmart or Depot and using their computer to fill it out verses staying home to do it does not give the same results because they know you physically went there and filled it out in their location.

The expert went over the guys resume, he said it told him nothing; and that when he actually spoke to him in person he learned more about what he did at prior jobs that weren't mentioned on the resume but should have been.

I don't know if the episode is available on Dr Phil's youtube page

Tips for How to Find a job
How to make more money - I think this was the episode I saw
Reinvent yourself

and then.. How Your Online Profile Could Sabotage Your Future

Hmm. Maybe it's just my field (I'm a Database Architect / Senior DB Engineer) but every single job that I have had since leaving college was obtained via an online job hunt/resume submission. Every one. In fact, the few "opportunities" I've been given via networking have been ones that I turned down.

I am certain there are many who have discarded my application because it came from online, but I consider that their issue, not mine. I currently make a reasonably generous six-figure salary so I must be doing something right.

(Disclaimer: I live/work in the SF bay area so a six-figure income does not go quite as far as it would elsewhere.)

DH has been in and out of work since 2001. We've even been featured a few years ago (I forget the exact date) in the Dallas Morning News about how to deal with unemployment as a couple! He is working at this time -- and we're very very very grateful every day!

Amazing all the things you learn over the years ... good .... and bad too. Including some very non-PC stuff that can be hurtful.

Jan

Ah, Pbrisjar, I'm glad the online route worked so well for you. I must say that I was directing my comments at those that have been searching for some time, with only rejections. If you have a job or if you can get a job the moment you apply online you obviously don't need any advice.

However, if you are not having any "luck", there are many many things you can do to boost your visibility and reduce your frustration. I, personally, have had success with online applications, but I truly chalk that up to a very targeted resume and skill set.

Besides, I was only trying to be helpful with no strings attached. Take it or leave it.

Teacats - I'm sorry you've had such a rollercoaster. What has worked best for you?? I am truly interested in learning more successful techniques. I agree about the non-PC stuff - I see it a bunch and it is a tough row to plough.

O.K. But please remember -- many of these observations come from the trenches. Many are very non-PC. Please just take a few deep breaths. Please don't flame me. Some of things MIGHT appear to be "way too obvious" OR "gee, thats just common sense" But believe me -- this is out in the real world.

1) There's a reason that Job Loss (JL) is among the worst situations for sheer stress. It ranks with Death of Spouse and Divorce. In fact you meet people where JL even led to instances of the other ones ..... and you don't know what to say. The shock and stress of the roller coaster ride of the Job Hunt (JH) is unbelievable. But people will say helpful comments like: "Gee now you have time off to do what you want!!!" Or: "Wow, I don't know anyone in YOUR position!!" Or: "Wow, must be nice to collect unemployment!" Chalk those comments up with the other interesting ones from funerals etc. You don't know what to say. They don't know what to say. They may be idiots. Some people may even avoid you as if JL is catching .... or as if they are afraid you might burst into tears at their party. You might. But thats because they ran out of wine. And remember -- don't corner someone who might be a good contact at a party. Thats scary for them. Just chat and then email etc. Maintain your personal distance.

2) You must move from Victim to Victor. One step at a Time. One Day at a Time. Take heart and revel in the smallest victories -- from cleaning out "stuff" from the old company to finishing a fresh resume to meeting some new people to mastering a new skill.

3) Update Anything that You Can. O.K. here we go with non-PC stuff. Maybe a new haircut? Check your breath and your personal odor. Try a couple of items to update your look. Yep -- I KNOW what you might be thinking -- "Gee, we're supposed to love everyone JUST THE WAY THEY ARE ........." Yeah. Right. This is not The Dating Game. Or a Family Time moment. This is a Job Hunt. And there are thousands and thousands of folks looking at the same time. Just try to spend some time to look your best. And LOTS of people do. And some people don't. Just ask the head hunters. Please don't flame me!

4)Again. A non-PC moment. Some of the job openings are not real. Companies may already have a candidate at hand -- but they HAVE to advertise it. And some of the company people spin out the process because their OWN calendars are looking sparse these days. And some may deny you the job because they are afraid you ARE the right person for the job. AND that they will lose THEIR job. Because it is a Buyer's Job Market these days. Folks with incredible creditionals are on the market too -- and companies can pick them up at a much cheaper rate.

5) Playing the Game when they Keep Changing the Rules. Yes. They can't ask you THOSE questions. Its illegal. Or not nice. Yeah ..... right. O.K. so they may "chat" to you at a coffee shop or the ladies room -- just a couple of "buddies" having a little convo. And suddenly you're spilling your guts about your age (stories that being with "I remember back in the old days ...."), weight, eye color, hair color etc. And all of those "things" that they ain't supposed to ask about. Be wary. Be careful. Even a question like "so what are you reading?" can be a thorny one!

6)And then there are some interviews that are Fishing Expeditions. Not about the things I just mentioned .... but about "HOW would you solve this problem????" Sounds like a good question -- until they ask for a full written explanation WITH charts and drawings. Thats Fishing. They're looking for a free-and-easy fresh way to solve their own problems without paying for it. OR how about the interviewers that ask about your "Rollodex"?? Or they'll ask specifics about customers that you have handled. They're fishing for customers' names and info for their own use and their own "Rollodex"

Anyway -- just a few thoughts. No real answers -- maybe some folks here can offer some ideas. Scooting behind a dragonhide shield.

Jan

last_mango: My point is that there really is no one set way or "rule" about how to find a new job. To say that someone *must* do this or that to get a job is silly, really.

Jan/teacats: no flames from me. BTDT on all those points.

First a deep breath

Teacats  unfortunately, you are spot on with many of your observations/experiences. You are right that some of the posted openings are not Âreal  companies are required, by law, to post them, but often the reality is they have someone (usually recommended by someone already in the company or known to them) already slated for the position. You are also right about people asking questions they are not allowed to ask  be careful. No personal problems. No medical issues. No religious/political stances. No children issues. No financial issues. The interview is not the place  steer the conversation elsewhere.

Your advice to go from "victim to victor" is perfect. Looking pulled together in an interview is huge. I have listened to HR managers actually laugh at sloppy dress/inappropriate tattoos and then discount those applicants immediately. I am not a petite person by any means. I am a female working in a very male-oriented field. But, dressing professionally and projecting a positive attitude makes up for a lot. Asking informed questions in an interview and having answers to those tough questions is huge. Knowing your way around a computer is usually huge. I could go on forever about resumes and interviews (but I wonÂt  ha!)  there are so many pitfalls to avoid!

Pbris  Did I ever say that someone "must" go the extra mile to land a job? If so, I apologize, obviously that is not the case. Sometimes there is the skill and demand match that allows you to score immediately. Fortunately, I have experienced that myself. However, it sure doesnÂt hurt to increase your odds by doing some of the things I mentioned. What is "silly" is to keep applying online for months with no results and not change your plan of attack. IÂve seen too many people get so discouraged when they are not even scratching the surface of what they could do to land the perfect position for them.

As you all might have noticed by now, IÂm fairly passionate about this topic. I am only trying to impart some of my knowledge and experience to those frustrated by the process. I have helped many people get out of that rut  it is very gratifying. It is not what I do for work, itÂs what I do for pleasure and a way to give back to my community (such as giving free seminars to the Society of Women Engineers).

I spoke with several managers yesterday just to get more input. ItÂs a tough time to be looking for a job. Not one person I spoke to would hire an online applicant over a personal recommendation (with the necessary qualifications, obviously). They are absolutely flooded with online applications these days. However, they ARE hiring - you just need something to set yourself apart from the herd.

Take control, view getting a job AS your job. ItÂs worth it.

Just a few more oberservations -- our next-door neighbours have hired the 24-year-old son of one of her co-workers to house-sit while they are in Europe. We met and chatted over several glasses of wine -- and he is VERY successful -- and being moved out to the LA office in a month or so.

BUT the difference in how he does the daily "grind" of his business -- well -- he (and all of his friends and co-workers) -- do EVERYTHING on their I-phones! And I do mean everything! Scheduling, billing, updating clients, handling mix-ups. Just like the TV commercial from Tom's Shoes where the young man is handling his worldwide work schedule from his I-phone. And although the young man next door DOES have a super-thin, light notebook computer -- he rarely uses it! He believes in Total and Instant Communications -- from blogs, tweets, fast-and-unbelievably complicated videos etc.

So -- just a thought (I'd LOVE an I-phone, Ipod etc. sigh.) -- learning new technology may not just pertain to computers -- but switch to phones -- especially in the upcoming years. My DH now handles a Blackberry BUT an I-phone is on his wish list too ...

Awm03 -- maybe your sons could teach folks (your friends etc.?) to use this very updated technology? JUST a thought -- really!!!

Anyway -- I know that lots of folks here are already very very good at all of the very latest I-phones and the numerous apps -- but I just thought I'd share ....

Jan