Hi Alex,

" Are you saying there aren't really any chupacabras? "

Not saying that at all. You can't prove the non-existence of a thing. Something keeps breaking those strings that I use to mark my rows with.

Hello Jay,

" There is only one plant I would consider doing some crossings with, but I
don't think I can talk about here, not yet anyways, and to actually carry
it out would be a nightmare because of free floating pollen. "

That sounds mysterious. Sunflower pollen must be troublesome, because some varieties are advertised to be pollen free. I am glad that zinnia pollen is not airborne. Several trees in this area produce pollen that is apparently windborne, and I am allergic to it. Hopefully we will get to the end of that pollen season soon.

" Last years z. seeds all went to the birds, literally "

Several seed-eating birds, including finches, like zinnia seeds. I put up reflective pinwheels in an effort to scare them away. I can't say for certain, but I think that helps at least some. In the past I bagged important breeder seedheads to protect them.

Sometimes I deployed nylon screening over an entire plant, using a wire "zinnia cage" as a support.But now I have too many breeder zinnias to make either method feasible. I will concentrate on the reflective pinwheels again this year. And I gather the zinnia seeds at the green stage to give the birds a smaller window of opportunity.

" I can't breed my own zinnias mainly because of health issues. Not enough energy or strength to carry it out. "

I respect that. You know your limitations. And Alex is not wrong. The hobby grows on you and you are never satisfied with just tying a few pieces of yarn on your favorite blooms.

ZM

Hello everyone,

Today was the day that my first outdoor seedlings made their appearance. There are several weed seedlings in this picture, but there are three zinnia seedlings in a line that runs horizontally through the middle of the photo. See if you can spot them. Clicking for a bigger picture might help.

This is a closeup of a couple that are a bit too close together.These Razzle Dazzles were planted on April 19th, so it took them 9 days to come up. That is actually pretty good since we had several nighttime temperatures in the upper 30s. These are part of a bed of Razzle Dazzles. It is evident in the photos that numerous tiny weed seedlings are also emerging. So a weed battle is inevitable. I never cease to be amazed at how pervasive weed seeds can be.

My indoor zinnia gardening and my outdoor zinnia gardening will overlap for the next few weeks. This is a current blooming indoor Razzle Dazzle.

The Razzle Dazzles need a lot of improvement, and hopefully growing a lot of them outdoors will help with that. Indoors I am very limited in how many zinnias I can grow, while that number can be much greater outdoors. More later. Tonight and tomorrow are supposed to be rainy here.

ZM

Oh look - baby pictures - so cute! ZM, you've got some sandy soil there. Yes, I see those weed babies, but they don't scare me. I've seen the photos of your garden in midsummer and it's still beautiful even before the sharpest hoe in the Midwest has been through.

You mention rain; we are forecast more than 2-1/2 inches over the next 3 days, though it hasn't hit yet. Maybe some of it will fizzle out over the Great Lakes before it reaches us. The ground is still soggy in places from past rains; not relishing having to swim out to the garden. The Ark should be finished in time; we've already gathered the cats...

- Alex

Hi Alex,

" The ground is still soggy in places from past rains; not relishing
having to swim out to the garden. The Ark should be finished in time;
we've already gathered the cats... "

Chuckle. Their rain predictions were correct here. It rained and thundered through the night and is continuing that today. It is way too wet to work outside, and even though I have used a lot of sand in my gardens, when it is this wet you just track mud into the house if you try to garden.

On the subject of mud tracking, I wish they made garden boots that mud wouldn't stick to. I am thinking a smooth Teflon sole, or something like that. I suppose, if they did use smooth Teflon, people would just be falling down and suing them.

My current solution is disposable plastic grocery bags. Put one on each foot and use a big rubber band to snug them in at the top, and then just discard the bag outside at the door. You can go through a lot of grocery bags and rubber bands that way. But you would think that if we can send a spaceship to Mars that we could invent a garden boot that wouldn't track mud into the house.

More later. I am "shucking" some zinnia seeds from saved seedheads, because I can do that indoors.

ZM

ZM - I'm with you on the whole "why can't they design 'such-and-such'" concept. Did you see that the NASA Cassini probe just got back in touch with Earth again after it's first dive through Saturn's rings? It will make another dive today, and then another 20 or so dives, getting closer to Saturn and finally plunging to it's end on Sept 15 of this year. That's after having been on a space journey since Oct 15, 1997 - and all this time staying in touch with Earth, sending back data. The beauty of such a feat is enough to make me weep.

And still - they can't make a decent pair of galoshes. And what's the deal with toilets having that stupid porcelain curl on the outside that's so hard to clean? Why haven't designers gone to a straight up and down box shape or a round cylinder shape with no outside crevices? It makes no sense.

Good idea with the plastic bags. I'll try to remember that one. At present, I just take my boots off before I come in. But it's not a perfect system. Somehow we still track in mud, grass, straw, wood chips, etc.

Officially older than dirt today. And how am I celebrating? Puttering around out in the garden, communing with Nature? No, because it's still raining. Instead, I will be stocking books at the shop, and then going out to eat. Maybe I'll get the dear husband to run me by Lowe's and see if they have hydrangeas in yet. :)

- Alex

Hi Alex,

Happy birthday! I hadn't heard that "older than dirt" thing, but I think it also applies to me.

The spacecraft Cassini apparently confirmed that the spaces between Saturn's rings are truly vacant -- no hard-to-see small particles there. I guess that is "good to know" for scientists who study such things.

This is a current photo of a tubular fingered specimen that bloomed out in the last few days.

This is a closer view to show the flower structure.My terminology is getting a bit blurred between the "exotic" tubulars with "teeth" and the "fingered" tubulars. In either case, I want to introduce internal anthers to them so I don't have to expose stigmas manually.

More later. I am still "shucking" seeds for outdoors plantout.

ZM

ZM - you are crossing these with the Burpeeana Giants, right? Bloom-size, are they presently around the size of a lantana bloom - or is that a false assumption based on their resemblance to the same?

The sun is out today - finally. But the high is predicted to be no more than 60*; not exactly comfortable for garden work. However, it's still too wet to do much in-ground work, and there are other things which need doing. Would like to haul everyone outside to get some real sun, but not sure I can count on the 60*, and will need to monitor the wind situation.

Later - Alex

Raaaaaaain and no electricity, unless you count lots of lightning. We needed the rain, though. The plants don't seem to appreciate the hose water as much as the real stuff.

Better go back inside, the patio is flooding. All pets accounted for.

Oh, it looks like a chicken coop will soon be joining my zinnias in the back yard. My mom's friend is incubating 3-4 eggs for us, French Copper Marans. Hope they're nice. She says the eggs are very dark brown. We've never had chickens before.

Love the rounded teeth even better than the pointy ones. Looks even more like lantana.

Lizzie

Hi Alex,

" ...you are crossing these with the Burpeeana Giants, right? "

So far this specimen hasn't been crossed with anything. I will probably use its pollen on a tubular or a similar fingered specimen. I don't have any Burpeeana Giants in bloom right now.

" Bloom-size, are they presently around the size of a lantana bloom - or
is that a false assumption based on their resemblance to the same? "

Well, I don't remember lantana bloom dimensions that well. This thing is about 3 inches in diameter, measured the "wide" way.

As I recall, there is quite a bit of variation in lantana bloom size. These fingered petal ends are not shaped very much like the petal ends on lantanas, so I have some work to do to get a good mimic of lantanas. I do think such a thing is possible. But I do need to do some more cross pollinations with these guys.

Hi LIzzie,

Mi-gosh! As they say, "when it rains it pours". Good work with your photo-journalism of the event.

" Love the rounded teeth even better than the pointy ones. Looks even more like lantana. "

Well, like I suggested to Alex, they have a long way to go to really look like lantanas. The fingers need to become lobes, which need to be much more rounded and "flattened out" at the end. Hopefully my outside work this Summer will make some progress.

Keep us informed about your chicken project. Hopefully the water damage is not too severe. More later.

ZM

I LOVE Mr. Beefcakes. It's like he's trying his best to be Uproar Rose. He is well-branched and sturdy. He has taken storms that have left most everything else flattened. His bloom has become enormous (okay, like 2.5", but he's got girth) and has deepened to a pink that shifts toward purple. I have selfed him a couple of times now. I didn't realize that one bloom could send out the pollen florets more than once. Some of his stigmas are shriveled, but I'll just keep pollinating him for as long as he's producing.

The actual zinnia bed is starting to bloom. First to bloom are Scarlet Flame and Oriole. It's so ratty-looking (the storms didn't help) I am ashamed to photograph. Will definitely be changing how I do this in the future. No more giant beds where I can't reach the center.

Lizzie

Lizzie -

Oh, it looks like a chicken coop will soon be joining my zinnias in the back yard. My mom's friend is incubating 3-4 eggs for us, French Copper Marans. Hope they're nice. She says the eggs are very dark brown. We've never had chickens before.

That sounds interesting! Have never kept chickens myself. You and ZM can give us some chicken stories once you get the "ranch" up and running. :) Just googled them - very pretty indeed.

I LOVE Mr. Beefcakes. It's like he's trying his best to be Uproar Rose. He is well-branched and sturdy. He has taken storms that have left most everything else flattened.

Well, there ya go. Those are attributes certainly worth breeding for. Don't forget to introduce him to some of those exotic red heads and/or carrot-top Oriole girls. Isn't this one of the points that you, ZM, have made on here and that Joseph T. writes about in his book - how that F1 generation can often be a stronger, more vibrant plant due to the introduction of the new genes into the mix? It may not be the end result you're looking for, and further crosses are needed to bring the proper genes into play, but in general, the F1s are stronger? Am I remembering that correctly?

Will be changing how I do this in the future. No more giant beds where I can't reach the center.

Been there, done that. But not for long! :) If the bed is going to be large, you need either stepping stones or little paths of some sort to allow access. I'd suggest do it now - choose areas you're willing to step on and put down some gravel now. You could try to be decorative about it, like it's a miniature stream through the bed. Might be interesting in itself. I've got tons (literally) of rocks, so I'm putting in more stones to step on in the patio garden, I guess.

ZM -

Well, I don't remember lantana bloom dimensions that well. This thing is about 3 inches in diameter, measured the "wide" way.

Holy Moly! I had no idea it was so big. The photo doesn't communicate it. Thanks for the clear ruler - that makes it "clear"! I would love to see a photo of the whole plant once it's growing in the garden.

Nothing to report here except that we have freezes probably tonight and tomorrow night. There was ice on the windshield this morning according to John, but no evidence around the garden. Supposed to be the coldest early Monday morning - possibly as low as 27*.
- Alex

Does this look like a good mate for Mr. Beefcakes? She's the Scarlet Flame most like the seed packet photo. She's also branching more than her sisters (many of whom are struggling to stand upright).

Lizzie

Hi Lizzie,

That Scarlet Flame specimen looks like a good cross with Mr. Beefcakes. However, right now it doesn't have pollen, so you should put pollen from Mr. Beefcakes on the Scarlet Flame specimen.

This is one of my large specimens that has a very informal flower form.

Not a lot of petals, but they tend of go "every which-way". It reminds me a bit of a specimen I had last year that I referred to as a "Bedhead". More later. I have been planting Whirligigs in my South Garden. It looks like I will complete that planting job tomorrow.

ZM

ZM-

Wow, that informal bloom has a flowing nature. Like hair underwater or something like that. Mermaid's Locks.

Today was a good day for new blooms. A couple of them are neat-looking.

This one has a more informal look, like you say. The twisted petal is not natural, some kind of insect stuck it to the other petals with some web and I pulled it free. It's one of the Scarlet Flame zinnias and the color is intense.

I think this one is a Royal Purple (inappropriate name for this zinnia, I'd go with Lavender Lady). As each layer of petals emerged from the center, I expected them to flatten out. So far they haven't. I think this might be a fun partner for Mr. Beefcakes as well as a selfer if she gives me some florets.

Having lots of fun.

Lizzie

Hi Lizzie,

You are getting a good variety of flower forms to make various crosses between. Don't let any of your good pollen go to waste. This is one of my indoor zinnias with a reasonably conventional flower form.

Its petals are down-rolled. It is somewhat spider flowered. The true spider flower has skinnier petals. Those make good females for pollen from unconventional specimens.

I finished planting my South Garden today. Next I will concentrate on my larger North Garden. I planted my South Garden exclusively to Whirligigs, to add some of their oddball genetics to my gene pool. More later. We could get rain tomorrow. It has been unseasonably warm here.

ZM

Got at least 2 weeks to go before I can think about planting zinnias out, and, unlike some past years, my plants in cups are not looking as happy as I'd like. I think they'll be fine if we can have some nice warm sunny days so I can haul everyone outside in their flats. Just hang on everybody - good days ahead to look forward to.

Lizzie, those are a couple of nice blooms! I especially like your "Lavender Lady". I agree, it's rather a-typical for a Royal Purple. I grew some of those year before last, and they were all darker and with fairly conventional petals - quite frankly, I prefer the petals I see in your version. And as ZM says, don't let that pollen go to waste! The first year I was doing this, I made every cross imaginable if there was pollen to use. I'm sure most of that seed I'll never plant, though I won't toss it yet - zinnia seed can stay viable for several years, and I might change my mind later. But this first year is a testing period: you're honing your pollination technique, and your seed gathering technique afterwards. Oh, and your record-keeping skills, since next year when you get bloom, you'll have some idea when you check the flower, whether this was actually your cross or something else.

That's a pretty one, ZM. It's sounding like you're expanding quite a bit on your garden size. How many more square feet do you think you're adding?

- Alex

Hi Alex,

Good advice you gave Lizzie. I never wish that I kept less records. Hopefully someday you will get around to planting all of those first year hybrid seeds you created. I still remember you marking individual petals. But you grew zinnia seedlings from embryos, and showed photos of the "fattest" green seeds I have ever seen. And you have applied your embryo knowledge to other species. You are a much faster learner than I was.

" How many more square feet do you think you're adding?"

Actually, none. I am just trying to make better use of the growing area that I have. As I recall, it is a fairly small fraction of an acre. An acre is 43,560 square feet. A small amount of land for a farmer. A huge amount of land for a gardener. This is an updated view of an indoor fingered specimen.

I need to be planting some of those outdoors. But today I hope to get some more Razzle Dazzle seed in the ground before the rain hits later today. More later. (Those fingered specimens have some Razzle Dazzle "blood" in them.)

ZM

Lots more new blooms today! And you guys are absolutely right about the labeling. I'm so bad about it, but will get better. Bought a ton of plant labels and sharpies and have started by clearly labeling all the Nasturtiums I started. Some of the zinnias are easy to identify (like the Pink Señorita), but these "purple" ones have me scratching my head.

A Pink Señorita

Another Royal Purple probably. She's pretty, but small and her plant isn't upright. Nothing unusual about her that I can detect.

Oriole, small but beautiful and upright.

It's probably hard to tell from the photo, but my informal Scarlet Flame may be showing her true colors as an Oriole. I hope she gives me florets because I don't really want to cross that red-orange/yellow with anything pink/purple.

Look at this weirdo. Single layer of enormous petals and what's that on the lower left? -- a single twisted tubular petal. Wat.

Lizzie

Hi Lizzie,

Wow! You are getting a lot of interesting new zinnia blooms. And you got that one oddball petal on the single red. One suggestion: cut that petal open to see if there is a functional stigma inside and, if there is, pollinate it with something and if it forms a seed, save it for a subsequent planting. This is another of my fingered specimens. Click on the photo for a bigger version of the photo, and for a maximum view, hit your F11 key to hide your Browser's heading material. Hitting F11 again will bring your Browser heading back. That scheme applies to most all of my photos, which are proportioned to fit the average computer monitor fairly well.

I continue to focus on planting outdoors zinnias. Some of them are coming up way too thick. I guess I will wait to see if they can produce blooms when spaced that close. If they do, I will cull them heavily when they do bloom to keep just the very best ones. More later.

ZM

Zm-

The tubular petal does have a stigma inside!

A photo that shows Mr. Beefcakes' color transformation. Top is old bloom and bottom is new bloom. I love him.

Mid-transformation.

And a Scarlet Flame with a pretty hot pink center. I this looks especially beautiful since she already has a yellow halo thing going on.

Lizzie

Just think how interesting it would be to see some of your crosses start to bloom out.
Believe me, Lizzie, it is mega-cool to get to see the results of your own crosses, and given your climate you can accelerate the process and get a second generation in this same year. Worth the effort if you have the time to make the crosses. Time is always a factor for me with everything. Sigh. And energy. Never enough of that either. :)
Lizzie - nice selection to work with, BTW.

But really, ZM - how is it that you get these amazingly special seedlings out of your commercial packets? Jackie R. did, too, as I recall. Stuff that makes one say "Holy cr*&!" Or are those two skinny petaled ones you're showing actually some of your hybrids? That's not the way I'm reading what you wrote, though - sounds like you're saying these are direct from the packets you bought. Where'd you buy those again?

Nothing zinnia-related to show you guys....so-o-o-o-o, I'll show you my new rock garden just finished in the patio!

It's small, but I really wanted one corner of the patio to be a rock garden. Right now I've plugged in a few plants, though you can't see much of them. Give them a month. Isn't that a cool cornerstone we found out by one of the decayed farm outbuildings?

Here's Ricki giving you a better idea of size. That's one of the pansies that over-wintered which I've transplanted into it :

Lastly, a pic showing the curvy brick walkway I've installed. Still have the other half to fix.

Next step, which probably won't happen till next year, will be to install wood edging to hide the current plastic edging that's holding the soil in place. Eventually, the plan is to gradually raise the entire area to about the level of that middle wooden rung of the fence. This would be wheelchair accessible, if a bit of a stretch across the bed. Trying to think ahead. Hopefully, I've got a decade or more before I have to face that, but don't we all wish that?

Well, I have some beautiful daylight awaiting me out there, and the ferals are probably all done eating, so I'm going back to work. Ta ta!

- Alex

Hi Alex,

" But really, ZM - how is it that you get these amazingly special
seedlings out of your commercial packets? Jackie R. did, too, as I
recall. Stuff that makes one say "Holy cr*&!" Or are those two
skinny petaled ones you're showing actually some of your hybrids? "

The pink one is a probable F2 from a Burpeeana X Whirligig cross. The white one is grown from a selection of a narrow petaled Burpeeana specimen. Seed packet zinnias are fairly heterogeneous and a selfed selection will produce progeny that are surprising. My original tubular was direct from a seed packet, as was my original star-tipped tubular., This oddball specimen came directly from a seed packet of Whirligigs.

And this narrow petaled specimen came directly from a packet of Burpeeana Giants.RoseAlice (Jackie R) and I both grow fairly large numbers of zinnias, and that gives us a numerical advantage in getting unusual zinnias. Just growing selfs from interesting seed packet specimens can produce interesting new specimens, because individual seed packet specimens rarely "come true". Seed packet zinnia seeds come from fields that are randomly pollinated by hive bees, and a significant fraction of those field grown seeds are actually F1 hybrids between unknown specimens in that field, courtesy of the bees. And some of those F1 hybrids involved parents that themselves were already F1 hybrids. So a commercial seed packet can have some interesting contents.

I have already planted several hundred Burpeeana seeds this Spring, and will plant more, and all of those Burpeeana seeds were saved from my "favorite" Burpeeana specimens, some of which were hand cross-pollinated between favorite specimens. So my Burpeeanas are effectively an "improved" strain of Burpeeanas, derived from some Burpeeanas that were grown in France, some in Holland, and some in Tanzania. And in each case, hand selected and in many cases, hand pollinated. So I have come to routinely "expect the unexpected" in my zinnias. Lizzie's seed packets have already yielded a few surprises, and the season is still young.

Your garden constructions look quite professional. They show that artistic composition techniques can be applied effectively to stone and gravel and plants. And perhaps to feral cats.

ZM

Hey all,

I was looking through some pics I took back in 2015 and thought I would post a few. The first is a tubular with some odd little "fingers".

The next three are ones that I liked the colors or patterns.

I had a sunflower last year that couldn't let zinnias have all of the tubular glory--

Later,

BTG

Hello there, BTG,

Wowzah! Just out of curiosity, what were you thinking as you were taking that first picture of a tubular zinnia with exotic petal ends? Just for reference, here is a picture of my first tubular "mutant" that I had. In many ways, yours was better than mine.

I almost wet my pants when I first spotted that zinnia growing in my South Garden. I immediately put a re-purposed tomato cage around it to protect it from our Kansas winds and fed it a dose of Bayer combination insecticide-fungicide-fertilizer to make it as close to "immortal" as I could. (Incidentally, that stuff worked -- with continued applications that plant was healthy and still growing "like gang busters" right up until the day of our killing freeze.)

My tubular immediately became my number one priority. It put out a lot of pollen and I used that to cross with essentially every breeder zinnia that I had. The majority of those crosses produced F1 results that were non-tubular, but I knew that the tubular genes were "in there" and saved seeds from them anyway. And, sure enough, a lot of tubulars in various forms and colors showed up in the F2 generations.

Your tubular zinnia is yet another confirmation of my opinion that a "stealth" strain of tubular zinnias has been living "under the radar" in zinnia seeds fields, essentially everywhere. Just out of curiosity, did you save seeds from your tubular, or cross it with other zinnias?

Incidentally, your tubular is not the only breeder quality zinnia you just posted pictures of. The edge color of the zinnia just below it is a picotee effect that is considered ornamental, and has potential when crossed with other colors. Single zinnias can look good, as yours demonstrates. And there is an interesting color gradation in the specimen below it. But, in my opinion, your tubular "steals the show."

BTG, I invite your continued participation here.

ZM

Brock-

For the love of Pete, say you saved seeds. And do stick around.

I'm at the point where there are a number of zinnia plants that probably need to be destroyed (too ugly or small-bloomed to even save for seed trade/refilling variety packets) to make room for new attempts. So hard to do.

Lizzie

I just found this series of threads while researching growing zinnias. Amazing. At some point I'll need to read through all 40+ pages.

With that said, I have some questions regarding the growing of zinnia for cut flowers.

At what stage should zinnia be cut? I've been wiggling to test for readiness. That is, I wiggle the stem with my hand and if the stem is not floppy, then I cut it.

How long can the flower stand in the field before cutting? If I need a large number of stems for an order, can I let the ready-to-pick flowers stay in the field or should I pick them and store indoors for a couple days until I've got all I need.

Does anyone disbud for larger blossoms? I do this with my dahlias, and I know many others do the same, but I haven't read much about gardeners disbudding zinnias. I want to disbud for a couple reasons. Larger blossoms, obviously, but I also want to minimize the stem scar when axillary flowers are removed from a main stem at the time of cutting. I figure disbudding will help with this.

Where exactly should stems be cut if you want to produce long stems? Let's say a zinnia grows straight up and produces a single blossom. I will typically cut that approximately 3 leaves from the bottom of the plant to get a long stem. Now let's say the axillary buds have grown to produce flowers of their own. Do I cut these at their base, right next to where the main stem was cut, or do I cut one leaf higher?

Thanks in advance. This is my first year growing zinnia and they've quickly become one of my favorite flowers.

Hi ferroplasm,

" I have some questions regarding the growing of zinnia for cut flowers. "

I have never grown zinnias for cutflowers or for the florist trade, so I don't have any specific expertise to answer your questions.

" At what stage should zinnia be cut? I've been wiggling to test for
readiness. That is, I wiggle the stem with my hand and if the stem is
not floppy, then I cut it. "

Does that mean you have already been selling zinnias as cutflowers? As far as testing stem rigidity, I would think that would be governed by the zinnia plant's current supply of water. If it was short on water, it might be a bit "wilty" and have an easily bendable stem. It seems to me that the maturity of the zinnia bloom would govern its readiness to be cut. I would expect a floppy stem to become turgid soon after it was cut and put in water.

" How long can the flower stand in the field before cutting? If I need a
large number of stems for an order, can I let the ready-to-pick flowers
stay in the field or should I pick them and store indoors for a couple
days until I've got all I need. "

Once again, this commercial selling of zinnia cutflowers is beyond my experience or expertise, but I would expect that you could leave them in the field until you were ready to harvest and deliver them. A zinnia cut flower remains alive and developing as best it can, including developing new petals. If you were expecting a hailstorm, then obviously leaving them in the field would not be wise.

" Does anyone disbud for larger blossoms? I do this with my dahlias, and I
know many others do the same, but I haven't read much about gardeners
disbudding zinnias. "

I have never heard of anyone disbudding zinnias for larger blooms. There is an old cultivar named Yoga that is bred to produce a single large main-stem bloom, with little to no side development. I have seen florists use medium sized and sometimes even small sized zinnia blooms, so I am not sure it is worth the trouble to try to maximize your bloom size via manual disbudding.

" Where exactly should stems be cut if you want to produce long stems?
Let's say a zinnia grows straight up and produces a single blossom. I
will typically cut that approximately 3 leaves from the bottom of the
plant to get a long stem. Now let's say the axillary buds have grown to produce flowers of their
own. Do I cut these at their base, right next to where the main stem
was cut, or do I cut one leaf higher? "

A proper answer to your questions would require experience cutting zinnias for commercial sale, and I do not have such experience. If someone with commercial experience reads this thread, they might answer. It might be that the florists to whom you are selling your zinnias might have something to say about how they prefer you cut your zinnia stems. There are a few books on raising cutflowers for sale, and they might have some zinnia related content. Some states might have extension bulletins in this subject area. A google search might locate relevant blogs.

ZM

Hey all.

ferroplasm:

This google search about commercially growing zinnias for cutting might give you some useful information: Growing zinnias for commercial cuttinghttps://www.google.com/search?q=commercially+growing+zinnias+for+cutting&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

ZM:

" what were you thinking as you were taking that first picture of a tubular zinnia with exotic petal ends?"

I was thinking how exciting it was to find something like that. Once I started reading your threads, I knew I would be growing zinnias to see what interesting things might happen from crossing the different varieties. They definitely haven't been disappointing. Well, except for last years attempt to add scabious flowers into the gene pool. Out of three packages, these were the only ones that I would say were closest to being on type.

I guess I was expecting them to be a bit bigger too. They were about the size of a quarter. The Zowie Yellow Flame I grew looked good and produced a lot of flowers.

I've always had an interest in genetics and growing flowers was a less expensive way to experiment and play mad scientist than when I was crossing different guppy strains.

This was one of my oddballs from last year, half cactus petals and half regular petals.

These tubulars were a couple of hot messes. They had a mixture of regular and tubular petals going every which way.

This one I found had the stamens sticking far enough out to make it easier for pollination.

Later,

BTG

Back from a few exhausting days of book buying and gardening in between, and I see there are interesting comments here at ZM's thread.

Ferroplasm - there was another person posting some year or two back about zinnias for cutflowers. We never did hear how that went with them. Personally, I've never done cutflowers commercially, though I used to, circa BC (before cats), indulge in flower arranging. My experience with zinnias is that they should be cut after they're first open, as low down the stem as you can, and then you can expect almost a week of show, with proper treatment. Never did any disbudding - don't know if that works the same with zinnias as some other flowers, though it seems logical that it would, if done early in the growing.

Judging by the in-depth nature of your questions, you can probably tell us more on the subject than we can tell you! And, once again, I personally would appreciate hearing your findings. I may not always have to contend with cats hampering my flower arranging, dontcha know? I miss it. :)

Brock - I had a similar experience with the scabious flowers - not so many true to type, though the ones that did come true, were quite beautiful. As ZM points out, it pays to add some different genes to the mix, which one is doing by including some crosses with scabious-flowered. I haven't planted out any more of the commercial scabious seed, but there are some of those genes running through my own hybrid mixes now. Oh, and I miss my aquariums, too. Sigh. Do you still have fish?

Lizzie - be ruthless and cull those scrawny little darlings. I have just thrown out a number of my plants who were looking bad. Not sure why this year's batch are so unhappy - probably a collection of different reasons. Hopefully, the rest hang on for the next couple of weeks till I can get them in the ground. Later, gators -

- Alex

Hello again ferroplasm,

The google links that Brock the Greek posted look like they have several relevant sources of information for you. I notice that removing sidebranch buds to make the main stem zinnia bigger (like you mentioned) is a technique. I might use that technique if I were grooming some zinnias for exhibit at a local County Fair.

There are more books available on growing cut flowers than I suspected. Click on this link to see Cut Flower books at Amazon

Some of the Amazon listings have a helpful Look Inside feature that lets you read sample pages from the book. I use that feature quite a lot in deciding whether to purchase a book. Some of the Amazon books are available in the e-Book format.

I would like to hear more details about your past and present zinnia activities. We share a like for the species.

ZM

Hi BTG,

Your disappointing results from commercial scabious zinnias are fairly typical. Just purifying the scabious strains is a potentially challenging project. I plan to plant some Zinderellas this year, to see what comes of that. Other people have reported big disappointments with them. But they interest me for potentially bigger plants with the scabious flower form. Hybrids involving good scabious specimens can be interesting.

Incidentally, when you said, "This one I found had the stamens sticking far enough out to make it easier for pollination." I think you meant to say stigmas.

And, you too, have been tempted by the the striped and spotted Peppermint-type zinnia genes. When this recombinant showed up a few years ago, I "swore off of" using Peppermint type specimens. It was a total surprise.

I envisioned those genes spreading like a disease through my gene pool. More later. We had a rain last night with high winds, and some of my stuff got blown around.

ZM

Thanks everyone for the leads. I'll start digging into those references and see what I can find.

ZM, I don't have much if any experience growing zinnia. This is really my first year ive had them in my garden - with the purpose of selling as cut flowers.

I'm growing varieties that, after seeing the variety you're growing, are a fairly boring lot. However, they're what was available to me at local seed retailers and those that I thought would be good for cutting. Those varieties are:

Pumilla Cut and Come Again

California Giants

State Fair

Envy

Polar Bear

Peppermint Stick

Giant Violet Queen

Benary's Giant Mix

All but the Benary's are growing well. I purchased the Benary's as transplants from a local nursery. They looked fine at the time of purchase, but since then maybe half have died and the rest look terrible. I'm thinking they're affected by bacterial stem blight. The leaves are showing black spots and the stems ultimately blacken and collapse. It's bad enough that I may end up pulling that bed and sowing a cover crop.

Hey Brock, quick question- I'm also growing Candy Mix and have just one semi-scabious plant to show for it. All but a couple of plants have dull ugly mottled pink blooms. I do have a coral and a yellow. The question: Do you also have some ultra pathetic shrimpy plants? Like 6 inches tall, leaves like blades of grass, and single layer of weirdly toothy petals? At first I thought they were malnourished, but now I'm not sure. I'll try to get pics tomorrow.

Lizzie

Hi ferroplasm,

" I purchased the Benary's as transplants from a local nursery. They looked fine at the time of purchase, but since then maybe half have died and the rest look terrible. I'm thinking they're affected by bacterial stem blight. "

Bacterial stem blight could be the problem. If you can post some pictures, we could try to confirm the culprit. Yes, buying plants started by someone else is fraught with dangers, including whatever disease your Benary's have. I assume your local seed sellers did not have the Benary's. I strongly recommend getting most or all of your seeds from online seed companies. Local seed sources are very limited. The variety Oklahoma is what you should be growing instead. It is like Cut-and-Come-Again, only better. And available in separate colors. It was also bred by Benary's Seed Company.

There are at least three seed companies that you should consider using.; One is Johnny's Selected Seeds. It is an employee owned company that caters to both home gardeners and market gardeners alike. There are market gardeners who literally grow acres of zinnias on what amounts to zinnia farms. Many of them use mechanical planters, that can plant zinnias as fast as you can walk. Some use tractor-mounted planters to plant multiple rows simultaneously.

Because zinnia seeds and other seeds can be irregularly shaped, some growers use pelleted seeds that work better in the mechanical planters. There is a South Korean mechanical seed planter, the Jang JP-1 Seeder that is particularly versatile that I considered. It has available rollers for a variety of different seeds. and could be used to plant zinnia seeds. However, for best results you would use pelleted seeds and that would suggest that I obtain or make a pelleter for my zinnia seeds. I am not ready to take that step. So for the time being I will just plant my zinnia seeds manually. I have had enough practice that I am pretty good at it.

For a much wider selection of seeds than Johnny's offers, I recommend Hazzard's Seed Company. This is a link that you can click to see their selection of zinnia seeds: Zinnia Seeds at Hazzard's There are 192 listings on that page, but there is a second page with additional listings.

A third company with a very wide selection is GeoSeed online catalog which unfortunately has no pictures, but does list a few things that Hazzard's doesn't have (and vice versa). They have some coated seeds, as well as other treatment options, and they have an odd little symbol to denote cut flowers.

For your infected Benary's area, you might want to consider solarizing that soil.

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

I have maybe 8 that look like this, across 2 beds. This bed was directly sown and the other bed received seedlings (so none growing right next to each other in that one).

The yellow is trying to be scabious.

And some plants (not from the Candy Mix) I'm keeping an eye on because their petals aren't really unrolling or they have a random tubular petal.

Lizzie

Hi Lizzie,

Well, that is something that is definitely wrong. I notice the one is near that gravel. Are all of them near the gravel? Do you have any pH Paper or other means of measuring soil pH? Have you been feeding them anything recently and, if so, what?

You have purchased zinnia plants this season, so it is possible that "something came in" on some of those seedlings. But I can't imagine what. In your top picture the gravel looks like the culprit. You can raise zinnias hydroponically in gravel, but you have to supply a good quantity of nutrients in your plant water, and you have to keep the pH in the range of 5.8 - 6.2 (mildly acid) for optimum growth. If you don't have any, your local garden center probably has some pH Paper and/or soil pH meters.

Those skinny looking zinnias look like they are suffering from serious starvation. Which could be caused by your soil pH being seriously "out of whack." Or, just lacking in soluble nutrients.

ZM

Lizzie - if they're by the gravel, aren't they beside the spray zone? This could still be evidence of Roundup in the soil.

ZM, thanks for the heads up about Hazzards. That seed company is new to me, which is always a nice surprise. I'm about to go check out their catalog. I was planning on purchasing the majority of my seed next year from Geo. Their prices and selection are dynamite.

Funny you mentioned the Oklahoma series. Those are on my list for next year - white and salmon. I'm also looking at the queen series. Any experience with those?

Here's a couple photos I took of the Benary's. They're really struggling.

Also, I meant to ask if anyone has a reliable means for discerning between State Fair and California Giants zinnia? I mixed up a tray of those and am trying to figure out what's what. Half of the zinnia from that tray have smaller blossoms while the other half are producing large blossoms. I'm attempting to study pictures of both varieties, but they appear the same to me.

Alex and ZM,

2/8 shrimps are near gravel. The others are out in the heavily amended (following State Ag suggestions for my soil test results) and regularly fertilized corner zinnia bed growing 12 inches away from struggling (probably poisoned) Dreamlands and thriving Dahlia-Flowereds. Don't ask me to pull/hoe all the weeds, there's no way. Most of them are back the next day, especially the grass and kudzu.

Candy Mix. Thank goodness the most hideous one is the best brancher. I was worried that was the last infection-colored bloom of the season.

Dahlia-Flowered. I have high hopes for these. They're the ones that were grouped based on seed shapes.

Lizzie

Ferro, that's a tricky combo to accidentally mix if you're planning on saving seeds. Hopefully somebody has an answer.

Hey all,

Alex- No, I don't have any aquariums set up. Sometime back I had some disease that I couldn't find a cure for that wiped out the majority of my fish, so I decided to just shut them down.

Lizzie- When I had some plants doing what your shrimpy ones are, it was probably from being affected by Roundup. I had some planters that I used it on to kill out some grass in them. When the plants came up in them, they were stunted similar to yours and the planters I didn't spray were fine.

I ran across some zinnia seeds a couple of years ago at Wally world from a company called Seeds of Change. They are called Peggy's Delight.

The majority of the flowers show cactus/whirligig influence.

ZM- You mentioned not using the Peppermint/Candy Cane varieties over concerns that their genes would become too dominant in the gene pool. Although I grow far fewer zinnias than you, I would say that maybe 10 percent show influence from the Peppermint that I put in the gene pool 10 years ago. I get a few standard looking ones or some like the following pictures. I like the orange Peppermint and I figure the freckling is probably due to it's influence.

BTG

Hi ferroplasm,

" Also, I meant to ask if anyone has a reliable means for discerning between State Fair and California Giants zinnia? "

Fortunately there is a way to distinguish them, although it is a bit tricky. State Fair is a tetraploid cultivar, while the California Giants, like most zinnias, are diploids. The tetraploids have twice as many chromosomes as the diploids, so their individual cells are somewhat larger. Which means that the leaf hairs of the tetraploids are bigger. Also, the leaf breathing holes, the stomata, of the tetraploids are larger. With a little practice and a good magnifier or low power microscope you have a shot at making some comparisons and telling the tetraploids from the diploids. And with a little more practice you can just look at their leaves and see that the tetraploid leaves are a bit "coarser" and thicker.

A trickier task is to tell a diploid zinnia from a triploid zinnia, because the cell size difference is considerably less. I'll save my triploid zinnia experience for another day. For several years now I have been lusting for a stereo microscope that I could take into my zinnia patch. If I restart my triploid zinnia project that will become a necessity, at least in my own mind. Stereo microscopes aren't cheap. And I am pretty sure I will want one that I could attach my Nikon DSLR onto, which bumps the price some more, But I digress. More about that stuff later.

Those Benary's do look seriously sick.

ZM

Hi Brock,

It is interesting that the Peppermint genes have survived without any specific "help" for 10 years, and I would be very displeased if they were showing up in 10 percent of my zinnias. My original concept was that the stripes would look great on the long slim petals of "Spider Flowered" zinnias and it was my plan to cross as lot of the Improved Peppermint strain with spider flowered selections to get that result in a great variety of color combinations. I now consider that I "dodged a bullet" by not getting around to implementing that plan.

Incidentally, the scabious effects distracted me from aggressively carrying out my Spider Flowered project, and I intend to return to that this year in my outdoor garden by making slender-petaled selections from outdoor Burpeeana Giants. I have already planted several beds of Burpeeana Giants, and plan to plant more. They will also play into my neglected Big Zinnia project.

Oh, and your suggestion to Lizzie that RoundUp might be the cause of her spindly zinnias is right on! As I recall her Dad applied some herbicide to the lawn near her zinnias. Mystery solved. I appreciate your informed contributions here. And I am sure Lizzie does too.

In your picture of Peggy's Delight, the bloom on the right shows a lot of bare central cone area, and that is a feature that I don't like in zinnias, so I usually cull those. Obviously, a lot of people don't share my preferences on that, because the F1 cultivar Zowie! Yellow Flame zinnia was a 2006 All-America
Selection winner! And it has a lot of exposed central cone that produces mostly pollen florets over a multi-week period, and is a tremendous butterfly magnet as a result of that. Everyone has a right to their personal preferences, and that certainly applies to zinnias (and butterflies) as well. Peggy's Delight does look like it may have some Whirligig genes.

I don't know if your pastel orange color is due to Peppermint genes, but it does look nice. Zinnias have a wide spectrum of pastel colors, and that is just one of the many things that I like about them. More later.

ZM

Hi guys :) i don't mean to be rude & butt in the middle of your conversations but Im so eager to learn!! I'm in brooksville, Florida. Zinnias do well here (unlike many other flowers) : I just bought some zinnia seeds some from stores but most mail order :) :) I bought queen red lime- Zinderella peach & lilac, my favs!! - banarys giant mix - banarys giant salmon rose & giant wine - Candy mix- scabiosa mix- giant flowered mix- big tetra mix- Andes jewel-giant double mixed colors- giant enchantress, violet queen, double violet queen, bright pink, California white & California mix & cactus mix. This is my first year growing from seeds instead of transplants (accept for easy seeds -zinnias, sunflowers, ect..) my question is how do I make a new zinnia flower ? I didn't read all the posts on this thread. Am I supposed to take the pollen from a favorite zinnia and put it where on another ?? On the anthers? Which are the anthers on zinnia if so ? Also, is there a specific time this has to be done? I would like to try & cross pollinate to breed a few zinnias myself. Please help. I posted all zinnia seeds I bought hoping I could get some ideas on which to cross? And this is off zinnia topic but I figured u guys would know ! :) I have many seeds that need 65, 70-75• to germinate but being in Florida our mid day temps are rising well above 85-90• however, it cools down some at night being it's not summer yet. It can get down to 68-70• @ night. Will this inhibit germination of seeds that need 70• ?? If I plant seeds that need 70• and above and they're subjected to our hot days but get 70• temps at night will this inhibit all germination? Or will they still germinate but at a slower rate or will it decrease how many seeds actually germinate ?? I just figured if a seed doesn't need stratification, it's okay to plant at whatever temp as long as it's warm, it'll grow. But now that I've purchased some really nice seeds I don't want to take the chance of loosing any bc it was too hot for them to germinate or bc I did something wrong! Some seeds I bought only have 10 in a pack. So I have to be careful ! I don't have a good windowsill inside that I can place my seeds on for light if they need light & 70• temps to germinate ( we keep our air @ 69• @ all times) any suggestions ??? I apologize for butting in ! But I figured your the ones to ask for help :) thanks :)

Welcome Rachel,

" i don't mean to be rude & butt in the middle of your conversations but I'm so eager to learn!! "

We are very glad to have you here, and you are in no way being rude or buttinski. You have touched on many subjects and this thread has already exceeded 100 messages, so I will be starting a new part soon, and I am actually in the middle of planting some zinnias in an outside bed, but I will offer a brief response here now, with a promise to respond more fully in the new Message Part, hopefully later today.

" ...my question is how do I make a new zinnia flower ? I didn't read all the
posts on this thread. Am I supposed to take the pollen from a favorite
zinnia and put it where on another ?? On the anthers? Which are the
anthers on zinnia if so ? "

You are right, this has been touched on in several previous parts, but there is an easy to get to message over in the Plant Hybridizing forum, which I will post a link to here. Just click on this link.

How to hybridize zinnias -- it's easy.

" Also, is there a specific time this has to be done? "

It should be done in the morning when the florets first open or within an hour or two thereafter. You would like to beat the bees to the pollen. The exact time that occurs will depend on your local conditions that day. Incidentally, zinnias do have anthers, but they occur in internal bundles inside the pollen florets. Like I said, I will respond to your messages and any further questions or comments later. Welcome again.

In the meantime, don't anybody hesitate to respond to Rachel just because this thread is long. It can get longer. The Marigold thread has passed 280 comments, and nobody seems to mind. In the "good old days" GardenWeb had a strict 100-comment limit, but that hasn't been in effect for many years. So fire away, guys. I got weeds to chop and seeds to plant.

ZM

Thankyou Zen !! I feel honored to be welcomed. Also, Thank-you for posting the link to the thread ab hybridizing zinnias. It would've taken me forever to find it , If at all :) it's crazy to think there's a comment limit- but I'm sure it's for good reason. I research as much as I can ab everything plants but sadly haven't memorized the parts of a flower ( tonight's goal!) When u start a new thread & respond to my questions in more detail zen, could u be so kind to post the link to your new thread on this old one so I can get to it ? You've answered my question ab hybridizing zinnias. However, Im excited to hear your answers ab germinating seeds in warmer temps, ect.. I have many new Varieties of flowers I've never seen before in person ( choc lace flower, white cup & saucer vine, ect.) I wish to germinate these asap but don't want to chance losing any bc they're special to me. Thankyou for being kind & reaching out to help others learn!! It means a lot to me :) thanks :)

Hi all,

Since this message thread may now be slow to load for some people, I have created a new part, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 42

See you all over there.

ZM

Rachel - have some comment to make about your germination issues, but will do so at the next thread, as per ZM's link just above. See you there.

- Alex