$3500 to do the work that you've described is an abysmally small amount and should have been your first red flag. No permits is your second red flag. Allowing a homeowner to order products with no oversight or input is the third red flag. Not charging you a markup on that product for that supervision, coordination, and other logistics is the fourth red flag.

Yor choice at this point is to work with him, or to get rid of him. If you ever go to sell your house, any buyers will want to see the permits for the remodels, so I come firmly down on the side off parting ways and finding someone who will do the job properly. It won't be unlicensed Cheap Charlie like you hired here though. Triple to quadruple the costs to do a proper job. But, there's the right way, and a whole lot of wrong ways. Which way do you want to travel down?

joelovesjennie:

This guy isn't showing up because every time he does, takes an economic beating. I was interviewed for a podcast yesterday morning and the radio hosts asked me what advice I had for fellow contractors starting out, their main audience. I told them that you have to learn to get your butt kicked. LIfe isn't fair. The trick is to keep your beatings to 1-4% of your total billings.

Don't cheat this youngster out of his education, please. He's paying tuition at estimating school.

I take a refresher course every now and then myself.

"Well he didn't ask for a deposit since we asked him to work right away, but on the first day of work he asked us for 2400 as a move on amount which is about 2/3 of the whole project. "

I would call that a deposit. Payment in advance for work not done. Unfortunately, you probably won't be refunded. You could try small claims.

You are on a learning curve here and, sadly, are dealing with someone who is completely unprofessional. He does not seem to have a clue. Curious how you found him, and did you get any other bids?

It would be best to cut your losses - it will only get worse with someone like that, as you are seeing.

Do you really mean $2400 or was that a typo? If you meant $24,000 (meaning the whole project isabout $35,000), I could understand it, but you can't demolish a kitchen, let alone rebuild it (in pricey California) for $3500.

One other thing, he's paying twice as much "tuition" as necessary. You can lose money on the job or you can have an unhappy customer, or you can have both. Since he's got to lose money anyway, why pay extra and have an unhappy customer too? Ask him this, please.

Ask him what?

Having owned a house for a year, I can say that the vast majority of contractors suck, and many are total ripoff artists. Don't ever trust them, and if you want a really good one that is going to do a really good job, and be trustworthy, it costs a lot of $$$. There is always a reason the cheap guy is the cheap guy.

snookums2:

Ask him why, since he's only got to lose money, is is choosing to have an unhappy customer too? Fair question.

Peter:

According to the amount of complaints received by the Better Business Bureau, we're a bunch of choir boys, especially compared to car salespeople and members of Congress. We didn't even make the top 8.

sjhockeyfan325- 2400 is not a typo. He gave us an estimate of $4,136 for bathroom remodel and installation of 3 ceiling fans. I believe the installation of the fans was $880. so that would mean he charged us $3,256 for the gutting/remodeling of the bathroom.

It seems the consensus is that we were too cheap. He was highly referred by another mom in a mom's group I belong to. I found out they were friends since high school. Oh well. That's beside the point.

Your comments are giving me another perspective. I'm understanding that he miscalculated the work and charged us too little.

Joseph Corlett, LLC- I don't want to cross him anymore. Any other ideas on how I can win him over and have him finish the job. And when you say: "Don't cheat this youngster out of his education, please." Do you mean I should continue to work with him? But how?

The contractor IS on the younger side ( late 20s early 30s) and I was very reluctant about that. Supposedly he has 5 years of experience. But my husband said he seemed very easy to work with as he was very friendly and a smooth talker, thus hired him. Another thing was he was the only one available to work right away. All the other ones were booked when we needed them. Now I know that's another red flag. But what were we supposed to do wait another 2 months for the "good" contractor to be available? If we knew when we were going to close on the house we would have hired someone 2 months ago. In our case, within weeks of closing we looked for contractors, got bids and asked them to work the next week.

Sophie Wheeler- What kind of permits do we need for a bathroom remodel? I feel so ignorant about this.

joelovesjennie:

Seriously, have him read this thread. It's a given that he's losing money. Let him know you know he is losing money, so since he's going to be out the money anyway, wouldn't he at least like to have a happy customer out of the deal? Be sympathetic but stern. You promise to say nice things if he finishes up promptly. If he has any brains at all, he'll jump on the new deal.

I only work about half as much as I'd like; that's because my rates are so high. The good thing for customers that are willing to pay my rates is that my high rates make me available. I'd rather work less for higher pay and always have room for another high-paying job than lower my rates and be busy all the time. Your guy lowered his rates to get a job and lowered them too far. He needs to pay the price for this mistake or he won't learn from the experience.

If this guy is licensed, he should know and pull the permits required for the job. Never hire a contractor that insists you pull the permits.

What kind of contractor license does he even have? Is he a general contractor? A tile contractor?

gc

Sorry, but did he tell you he was a GC, or did he show you his registration with the state that you verified. And did you verify his insurance with his carrier? Someone that doesn't pull permits is likely to not be legit in others. I.e, he may not actually be able to pull permits because he isn't registered. He hasn't been exactly upstanding with you here, and you are a newbie, so you may not have thought to actually verify.

My Florida or Michigan licenses can be verified online anytime in minutes, as can any in California.

yes, we also verified online on the same site Joseph linked, but we didn't ask to see it. We also checked his bon d amount, but didn't check his insurance with carrier.

I'm still not understanding the permits part. Even though we didn't move a wall or demolish one, we still need a permit to remodel a bathroom?

'Bathroom remodel' is a very loose term. What exactly are you having done? 'You buy materials'. So his $4100 figure is for labor only?

He is not getting things done or showing up, getting volatile, wasting your time and money going about things in a disorganized way because he doesn't know what he is doing. Nothing is going to change that.

Plumbing and electrical requires permits. Bathrooms require both, to current codes. Lighting has to comply with Title 24 requirements. You may have seismic retrofit requirements depending on where you are located in CA. Some locales have more restrictive requirements in a very restrictive state.

I am not sure whether or not you need a permit. When you say gut the bathroom, everyone here is going to think what you are doing requires a permit. But if gut the bathroom means taking down ugly wallpaper and putting up tile then you may not. It really only takes a phone call to be sure, so call and find out.

I would guess there is going to be some mechanical work involved and for that you need a permit.

snookums2-Yes, 4100 for labor mostly. Some things like grout, baseboard, recessed shelf he said he would provide, but not quite sure he meant he will charge us for that or not.

Sophie Wheeler- had no idea. husband talked with some electricians and they said you could if you want to, but it would cost a lot more time and money. we thought we didn't have to, but it seems it is required from what I'm reading on your comment.

bry911- we gut it meaning replaced everything. we have a new bathtub, vanity, sconces, recessed lighting, recessed shelf, new towel bars and hooks, fan, toilet and vanity position switched, and new tiles.

quote" But what were we supposed to do wait another 2 months for the "good" contractor to be available? "

Now you know the answer to your own question, right?

You definitely need permits for that scope of work. Which you can use to your leverage to get out of the contract should you desire to take that route. Talk to your local permit office about getting the permits after the fact now.

Your licensing/permits requirements info may be online at city's website. Any reno as you describe usually takes planning and lead time. You order all the fixtures and things while searching for contractor(s). Most/all contractors who are supplying labor expect those items to be on site before the demo begins.

@joel: That's a ridiculously low amount. Four years ago I demoed our down stairs bath, and put in all new fixtures and shower. It was about $9,000 - not counting labor.

A poorly installed bathroom can leak and mold in a couple of years.

What about the floor - did he screw down 3/4" plywood, and then thinset and cement board?

The other thing you need to be concerned about is the waterproofing around the bathtub / shower.

I feel for you. This guy sounds pretty shady, and, unfortunately, you are new to this experience and too trusting. Most of the contractors I've worked with, even those whose work itself was good, have disappointed me in one way or another. I don't know any homeowner who doesn't feel this way. They start out like first dates, all eager to please, but then they gradually reveal their real, usually unpleasant, selves. I can't tell you how many times I've heard variations on the "tiler had a baby" excuse. People have babies. People get sick. Floods, snow, and hurricanes happen. Most people at most jobs would get fired if they kept using such excuses for missing work or not finishing on time. And though I've had quality work done by a contractor who didn't pull permits, I don't recommend it. Permit requirements vary state to state, and maybe even more locally. If he does have a license, complaints to the issuing authority may provide some recourse, but I'm not knowledgeable about this.

I wouldn't worry about trying to win him over. If he's not trying to win you over, he's probably taking advantage of you and your niceness. Expecting him to change is like an abused wife who believes her husband when he says he'll change, or even worse, that the beating is her fault. This is an expensive lesson, but many of us have paid a lot more to learn to be more cautious. And just ignore the other contractors here who just want to blame you and brag about themselves.

Our bathroom is quite small at 8 x 4.9 sq ft. We only needed a 100 sq ft of tiling. Anyway labor and material/parts included came out to around 5500. The labor only was around 3200.

Today, the tiler and helper came to work to finish the two tiles he was missing, but didn't see the contractor. He hasn't come to the house for the last several work days. (since our heated argument, actually). I'm actually hopeful that he came to his senses and will finish up. I don't think their tile job is that fabulous, but I just want them done and out at this point. It's really helpful to hear all your comments every one of them. I'm not the nice one though, my husband is. I just couldn't stand watching from the sidelines and tried to talk some sense into the guy, but it didn't work. I just can't wait to write a honest review about him. But then again, he might hunt me down.

A "gut rehab" means all finishes and fixtures are removed exposing the studs, ceiling joists and sub-floor. In most jurisdictions that requires a building permit since all current code requirements (plumbing, electrical, energy conservation, ventilation, etc) would have to be met as if it were new construction. The contractor would have to have either a general construction supervision license or home improvement license or both. A building permit would normally be in the name of the owner but the contractor usually files the paperwork because he must show evidence of his license and insurance to the building dept. at the time of filing. An electrician and plumber would also get permits for their work. A building inspector would only inspect the work described in the permit unless he happens to see unauthorized work while on the job site.

"A building permit would normally be in the name of the owner but the contractor usually files the paperwork because he must show evidence of his license and insurance to the building dept. at the time of filing."

That's illegal in Florida. I doubt it's legal in California. Contractors pull permits in their names on behalf of owners.

Every jurisdiction is different. I just pulled a permit for a room addition in my name. We're going to hire a contractor to build the shell and we'll finish the inside. The contractor will call for the 2 inspections in his jurisdiction and we'll call for the rest.

I'm in Cali where homeowner's can pull their own permits. I've done several remodels acting as my own GC, and had no problem pulling my own permits. It made more sense, time-wise and money-wise, than asking each of my subcontractors to go down to the city and pull each individual permit for their portion of the project. It's not exactly cost effective for the hot mopper to spend half the morning at the city pulling a permit for a job that he's going to be paid less than $500.00 for. If I were hiring a GC, I would expect them to pull the permits for the entire job.

Update: the contractor worked for a few days and he left unfinished again. We are under the impression he will not be back for another week. We will have to move in with the bathroom unfinished and unusable. The tub faucet and shower hose, vanity installation, shelf completion, towel bars, toilet paper holder are all incomplete. I gave the reins to my husband and he is being very lenient again and said lets give them another week. The contractor on the other hand is still complaining that its all our fault and he is losing money every time he comes with his guys who he has to pay $600/ daily. How can we communicate with someone who is being unreasonable?

What is the best way to part ways with this human being? (My husband may end up with a stroke at this point. He's the type that takes it all in.) If someone can give me a step by step guide as to what we can do, it would be extremely helpful.

weedyacres-- I'm a bit wary about "threatening" him because he seems a bit immature and volatile. ( interpreted: I don't feel safe or feel sure he will leave us in peace) That's why we are trying the carrot to the horse's mouth approach. Any other advice would be helpful in best way to get rid of him or possibly still work with him.

How is his losing money every time he comes your problem? He has to take his beating like a man. It's the only way we learn how to estimate. He'll thank you for it eventually.